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Dan Akin
12-26-2002, 09:43 PM
Greetings to all of you at Saponi Town;
I am very happy to join your forum and I will hope that you will be happy to have me.
I would first like to commend you all on the spirit of brother and sisterhood that you have established on this forum. It is a spirit of acceptance, assistance, politeness, and friendliness. Many forums out there now are down right cruel to novice geneologists, and those that are just innocently seeking the truth of their Indian ancestry.
The journey of my family has been going on now for 240 years. My family is very large now and is widespread and yet there are still high concentrations of them here and there much like there is here in central Mo.. Like many families of American Indian descent we have some documented facts and a pile of oral legands and myths. Somewhere there is a balance of those great traditions supported and confirmed by complete documentation.
I am a descendant of Gardner Green. There is a history out there that says he was a Chickamauga Cherokee chief, the chief over the gold fields for John Ross. That his son Benjamin was a chief also on the St Francis River in the 1780's in s.e. Mo. and was an acquaintance of Duwali "The Bowl." That his grandson James was also a chief and by the urging of Daniel Boone led 200 cherokee families in 1799 to settle St. Charles Mo.. By this, and other things, people in my family have gotten politicians in the State of Mo. to recognize our family and their followers as a cherokee tribe. Well that makes for a great story but none of it is true.
Benjamin Green my 5th greatgrandfather, son of Gardner, came to Boone Co. Mo. from Henry Co. Ky. in 1833. He lived there from 1800 to 1833 and was a farmer. Before that he lived for awhile in Madison Co. Ky. and before that starting from 1786 he lived in the Lost State of Franklin in n.e. Tn.. That is what I and others have documentation on.
From the other end we are focusing on a Gardner Green listed on the 1764 tithables list of Old Lunenburg Co.Va.. We can track Gardner leaving Va. in the 1770's with Stephen Green and William Sizemore and moving to Old Rowan Co. N.C. and the Old Sapona River (now called Yadkin). From there Stephen Green Sr. and Jr. and Benjamin Green show up in Madison Co. Ky., but Gardner Green and some of the Sizemores have continued on in 1790 to the Old 96 District of S.C.. This is where my Green family picks up other families such as the Franklins who also claim cherokee descent from Gardner Green. By 1790 the Greens and the Sizemores are claiming cherokee descent and by 1800 they have split. Each family has gone on to seperate counties in Ky..
The Greens and Sizemores of Old Lunenburg Co. Va. lived on Buffalo Creek just off of the Roanoke River and just barely in Va.. They had married in together along with the Jacksons and Griffins.
Please, I am looking for any info. on the Greens. There had to be an event or something that either caused white families to accept indian members or Indian families to live as whites and abandon their ancient customs.
Thank you! Dan.

Linda
12-27-2002, 11:00 PM
Is there another Gardner Green associated with all those Cherokee connections you first mentioned?

Is the name Gardner Green something that's survived in the family and now you're trying to track him down? I'm trying to get a handle on what you're saying.

It's interesting that there would have been people "claiming," as you say, Cherokee blood in SC in 1790. My impression has been that the generic use of that word, and the confusion around it, wasn't common until the 19th century. Weren't there Catawba that were taken in by the Cherokee for awhile, then they went back to being Catawba? I recall something like that. I think I was reading about that in connection with the Catawba pottery making and the relationship between the Catawba and the Cherokee. Perhaps your family was part of that community and that could be the origin of this identification.

We used to live in Buffalo Junction, in Mecklenburg, VA. Is that where the Buffalo Spring you're referring to is?

As for the event that caused Indians in that part of VA to be acculturated, it would have all started with the defeat of the Occoneechee in what's now Clarksville, VA in the 1670s. By the 1710's all the piedmont Siouan were tributary to the British. There was an Indian school for them in the 1720s. Some of them it's believed later went to William and Mary. The teacher, by the way, was Charles Griffin, and was reportedly well respected by them. It's felt that many of the English surnames adopted by the Indians were taken to honor people they respected.

Gertrude Kurath in "Tutelo Rituals of Six Nations" notes that the Tutelo who went to Canada to join the Iroquois, in around 1740's I believe, were dressing and living like white frontiersmen.

So, I guess it wasn't one event, but a series of changes over a 50-70 year period. Really, it's the same thing that eventually happened to everybody else. It just happened to them a lot sooner.

Dan Akin
12-28-2002, 11:25 AM
Thank you Linda for your reply.
In 1908 200 people who claimed descent from Gardner Green applied for the Guion-Miller cherokee settlement. Many fellow family members did not bother to apply. It was concluded that there was no known, proven connection to the Cherokee Tribe. The enterviewer stated that "If anything they would be classified as Old Settlers." He did not say that they weren't indian.
That history I mentioned written by my fellow family member, and now available at Barnes and Noble, also claims that Gardner Green was the cherokee Gardner listed on the 1835 Henderson Roll. That is entirely false as the Henderson Roll Gardner Green was a young student named Young Wolf at Brainerd Moravian Cherokee School in the early 1800's and had borrowed the name of his benefactor the rich Mass. merchant Gardner Green. He then signed up, along with his young family, to be removed west with the Echota Cherokees. In 1835 our Gardner Green would have been about 95 years old.
So we have all these people claiming eastern cherokee descent from Gardner Green even though they are seperated by time periods, settlement areas and lines of descent. We have their testimonies from the Guion-Miller commission. Some are accurate and some have proved to be almost completely false. They have no documented, proven connection to the cherokee tribe and yet their family photos prove that they are Indian.
Who and what was Gardner Green?
We can document and trace the Gardner Green of Pindleton Co. S.C. (Old 96 District) back to the southern part of Mecklinburg Co. Va. (Old Lunenburg) in 1764. What we have left to do is try to connect and document our Gardner's son Benjamin to the migration trail of this Gardner Green. He is our most likely candidate. This is hard because of Benjamin's stay in Sullivan Co. Tn. (Old State of Franklin).
The Gardner Green from Old Lunenburg had land for a time in Rowan Co. N.C. that backed up to the Moravian lands. The Moravians had a mission to the cherokees on the Yadkin River. This could explain our oral tradition of Gardner marrying Allneenee Talitoosa a daughter of a cherokee chief.
It is my beleif that our Gardner Green was a full or mixed blood descendant of some Va. tribe. That in his migrations he took a cherokee bride but always lived seperately from the cherokee tribe. Dan.

Linda
12-28-2002, 12:12 PM
Why are you sure that there's a Garnder Green at all in your family?

Dan Akin
12-28-2002, 08:31 PM
I must admit that it is by faith. Faith in some of the information on those Guion-Miller testimonies. My great great grandfather John Harvey Neal and his fellow siblings could not have been complete idiots and not know the name of their great great grandfather. I do not beleive either that it was a coordinated scheme to defraud the government. As far as I know they never said it was the Gardner Green on the 1835 Henderson Roll.
I know it follows that by faith I should then accept their testimony that Gardner was an Eastern Cherokee. He might have been. But you do not create a cherokee tribe based on this man's life and enroll 12,000 people without proving it.
I will continue my search for Gardner Green's origins and I am confident that it will be successful.
On another note; Have you done much work on your Iriquoian neigbors? Of course you know not only the cherokee were in Va. but the Meherrin, Tuscarora and Nottaways were there. I understand that in 1761 parts of the Meherrin and Tuscarora lived with the Saponi and Secotan Machapunga on the Roanoke River.
Lots of other tribes had elements in the Cherokee Nation. Your brothers the Keyawees along with Nottaways and Conestoga Susquehannocks joined the Lower Towns in the 1700's. I beleive that is where their capital Keowee later got it's name. Dan.

Linda
12-28-2002, 09:10 PM
My understanding is that these rejected applications are valuable for their information, and that historians have found the testimonies to be remarkably reliable.

We've written a lot in the past about the misuse of the word "Cherokee" in the 19th century. It seems that it was a generic word for "friendly Indian" and a lot of people were called that which can now be traced to other tribes. However, I hate implying that people should off-handedly throw out an ID that's been in their family for a long time.

I assumed the "Blackfoot" ID in my family had to be wrong, went about researching it on the basis of who was living near where my family was and in the end came back to "Blackfoot." It looks like you've gone through that same kind of process,

I'm curious how your family members were able to push their genealogies through the state recognition process if they're so flawed. They must be slack out your way. From what I've heard it's like getting a camel through the eye of a needle out here to make it through that process. But then perhaps it's mostly politics, and if you hit on that right, anything goes.

Anyway, I would trust your family's testimony, too, and consider it more than just faith. You have a respected source of documentation for it in those testimonies.

Yes, I've researched the Iroquoian tribes in this region, too. My first clue led me to the Tuscarora and I spent a lot of time researching that history before I hit the payload of clues about the Siouan.

Dan Akin
12-29-2002, 09:41 AM
Linda; There is no recognition process in the State of Mo.. They have no commission for Indian tribes and most always say there are no tribes in the state.
Right now they are in trouble for this attitude. The federal gov. is on them to help Indians in their state with Indian insurance and medical benefits or lose $1 billion in federal money. Yes, that is 1 billion. That gives you some idea of the amount of Indian money the State of Mo. is squandering.
The State of Mo. kicked the ball back to the federal gov. and demanded them to tell Mo. just what an Indian is and what is an indian tribe. With all of these cherokee tribes that have come out of nowhere and have little legitimacy and are seeking federal recognition that puts the federal gov. in a pickle.
The Northern Cherokees were able to obtain a joint resolution passed by both the house and senate in Mo. that says they are recognized. Throw in a proclamation or two signed by governors from Mo. (which even the Boy Scouts can get) and behold you're recognized. (Or maybe not.) If you contact the Governor's office or the office of the Attorney General they will tell you there are no recognized tribes in Mo..
So you see that you don't have to prove anything and you can even just create your own history, rolls, geneologies, government, etc., etc.. Then you get other groups that get mad, split off, and carry this fake garbage with them. Then those groups split...
It's a mess. Dan.

Linda
12-29-2002, 11:00 AM
I see. .. what you say fits with what I've seen or heard of before.

You are right to keep at your work diligently to find the real story as much as it can be known. Eventually, the dust will settle and some sense will be made of things. It looks like there are some good opportunities in the federal pressure on the state.

Research the history of the Lumbee here in North Carolina. They've gone through, and are still undergoing, the same kind of turmoil on identity, over the same tribes actually, as you all are. It sounds like the same story, almost. They were called the "cherokee of Robeson county" at one point, then it was decided there was little if any Cherokee blood. There's still debate if they are Tuscarora or Cheraw (Saponi). Actually they are a congolomerate of all of the above and more. There seems to be a move on for distinct identities to be recognized and accepted by the community as a whole. From a distance, it seems like that should be a workable solution, but that's probably a naive view on my part.

freelancearts
02-26-2003, 04:16 PM
Hi Dan,

We've chatted before on another site. I found it quite interesting what you propose. First of all my family's link to Gardner was disproved, but with my current research I believe there may be a connection after all. I also have many family members part of the Northern Cherokee Tribe in MO. What I find very interesting is that my family always said we were Cherokee and Blackfoot. Perhaps your theory about Gardner and his wife is not so far off.

My 4th great Granfather was Lewis Green brn 1775 ? and his father is either Richard Green brn abt. 1745 Mecklenburg VA or Gardner Green living in 1790-1800 GreenvilleNC. I'm waiting for and hoping for documentation from the Carolina's to prove which is his actual father. Furthermore I believe there may be a connection to this Gardner and Richard because they come from the same area and Gardner has Richard in his family line. His son Benjamin witnessed a marriage for Richard Green in KY. Regardless, I believe my family and that I am Indian. Me and my cousin are going to take a DNA test just for the heck of it. Please keep me updated on your finds...

Thank you, Troy

CoheeLady
02-26-2003, 07:40 PM
Hello Dan,
Welcome to the site! :) I just wanted to let you know that in Virginia, Cherokee's are not a recognized Tribe by our backwards state government.
Sincerely,
Coheelady

Linda
02-26-2003, 11:28 PM
You know, Green is a common name among Indian descended families in the southeast. It can signify a variety of tribal origins, or should we say, it doesn't in itself signify any one in particular.

My husband has Greens in his family, from what is called Green town in Brunswick County, VA/ That's one county over from Mecklenburg. Greentown sits on land that was part of the old Saponi reservation at Fort Christanna. There are other options than just the famous guy.

techteach
02-27-2003, 01:16 PM
My family includes many Greens, descended from Regnal Green (1724?) of Berkely County, West Virginia. They left there in the late 1700s and went to Licking County, Ohio and then some went on to Iowa in 1840. This family is believed to be Shawnee.

Cindy

rodtree20744
02-27-2003, 02:52 PM
My grandmother's maiden name was Green, they were from and still live in Halifax/Warren county area of North Carolina. They are members of the Haliwa-Saponi.

Forest
02-28-2003, 09:25 PM
I would also note that the Green name occurs among one of the smaller groups of Tidewater Indian descendants in Virginia. I believe it is the one identified tentitively by Speck as Potomac, but I'd have to check.

vance hawkins
03-13-2003, 07:51 AM
hi Dan.

I read about what you said about Missouri groups. I can trace relatives of my ancestors to Misouri, but my direct line went through Northern Arkansas, eventually. One side from Va to South Indiana to Ark. Another from E. Tn to NE Al to North Central Al to Ark. Both groups married there, and moved to Indian Teritory (present day Oklahoma, where I still live).

Your experience with Mo/Ark groups is similar to mine -- a lack of guidelines by those states has left everyone trying to create their own tribes with different criteria, someone then goes on a membership drive, then one of the new members gets his/her feelin's hurts andsays "Im' not gonna play by your rules and starts their own "tribe". Somebody else sees this mess and says "I'm gonna do it RIGHT!" -- and they start their own tribe . . . even if someone or some group does know what they are talkin about -- I have NEVER heard of any of those groups PROVE with actual documentation that "their tribe" exsted historically. They will tell you such documentation exists, when you ask them about it == well, it is too secret so it is locked u in a bank vault under lock and key . . . I gave up on them . . . I honestly believe the people are or mixed race, but their leadership of many of those grops is either wacky, or is stuck in a catch-22 cycle from which they don't know how to extricate themselves, and it damages their credibility to the breaking point. It is frustrating, and makes me angry. It is also sad.

So I was very skeptical when I came to this web site. But these folks seem very sincere, no one is out to create their own "tribe" out of thin air, makin' up their history as they go along in order to satisfy impossible standards set by the BIA.

I think you'll like this place, and learn more in a few months than you can ever learn from Northern Cherokee groups in Mo & Ar. I love those folks, but their "history" well, they seem to just make it up without any documentation at all thinkin that will help their standing with BIA recognition. But instead, since they can't document it -- and the BIA is lookin for DOCUMENTATION -- they end up shootin themselves in the foot.

Then they get mad at enrolled federal tribes who also see this made up history, and those folks call them "wannabes" -- they are not stupid and they know truth with historical documentation and can tell the difference bewteen truth and a lie. Then these made up groups get mad at federaly recognized tribes (not just Cherokee).

To get federal recognition you have to PROVE your tribe has continually existed from historic times to the present, and ALL THESE groups and people -- ALL of them -- disbanded, were raised in White towns as white people and this disqualifies them -- us -- from federal recognition, according to ow that is defined by the BIA.

So to circumvent this they "make up" a history that never existed hopin the BIA will see their little band of related families NEVER disbanded. They say so & so was tribal chief from 1820 to 40, another was tribal chief from 1840 to 1875, et cetera, up to today. But I think these were just ancestors probably just tryin to get by and be accepted as mixed-bloods who had a hard time livin as white and couldn't make it as Indians either, a curse of the mixed-race people. But to admit this they have to admit they don't meet the satndards set forth by the BIA.

To admit you are NOT gonna meet BIA standards for recognition is the first step towards discovering the REAL truth about your ancestors and some folks are in denial about this. They are STILL callin themselves "Cherokee" -- why? Cause the Cherokee Nation exists and their ancestors might be from a small group that is for all intents and purposes practically "extinct" I'm sad to say, today.

But this all stems from, in my opinion, the desire to meet the standard requirements for "recognition" from the federal government.

of course I might be wrong . . . :)

Dan, I like your approach to this, and your comments.

vance

vance hawkins
03-13-2003, 08:10 AM
Sorry for misspelled words, but i can't edit this.

Also what i just said has not always been my opinion. I once too thought ALL my Indian blood was probably Cherokee (I was never certain). I am now fairly certain that some was Cherokee, but some was not, nad we may very well have been, okay I'll say it -- we were "probably" -- "Eastern Blackfoot" as well, judging from S. Indiana and Va evidence of the origin of these people.

I don't expect "federal recognition" -- we don't meet BIA standards (few can) -- but I can still keep learning and I know who I am regardless.

vance

Dan Akin
03-13-2003, 08:50 PM
Linda, Troy, CoheeLady, Techteach, Rodtree20744, Forest Hazel, and Vance;
I thank all of you for your kind words, your warmth, and your advice.
Again, what a pleasure it is to discover a forum full of people who are conciderate, polite, and intelligent.
As many have pointed out, there are several Green families to be studied in the old Virginia and North Carolina tribes (and study them I will), but I also believe that the Cherokee presence in colonial Virginia has been greatly underemphasized.
Cherokees were officered (captains Yellowbird and Outacity) in the Virginia Colonial Militia and had accompanied Captain Lewis on his ill-fated 1756 Sandy expedition to the west.
Cherokees had marched into colonial Williamsburg Va. to meet with the Nottaways for a treaty of peace.
They were recorded as living at Castlewood and Fredericksburg alongside the whites in southwest Va.. Southwest Virginia is an area where towns still bear names such as Chillowie, Konnerock and Hiwassie.

Vance; As far as the "Cherokee" groups in Mo. and Ar. I do not believe that there is even one that is legitimate. There is no hope or chance that they will receive federal recognition as Indian tribes because not one of them has ever had or maintained a relationship with the government of the United States. Not even concidering fake geneology or history, on this one fact alone they are doomed to fail.
It is such a simple thing to understand that it almost seems commical that anyone could believe otherwise.
Being United States citizens of Native American descent does not a federal Indian tribe make.
Like you, what these groups are doing and have attempted to do makes me angry and extremely sad.
Dan.

vance hawkins
03-14-2003, 10:06 AM
Dan, I think I like you and your ideas!

You realize what is happenin'. Most people I have tried to talk to about this think I am against federally unrecognized tribes and I am not! But before a solution can be come up with, you have to be honest with yourself, know what is possible and what is not, and work from there.

NONE of the groups from Arkansas and Missouri can be federally recognized, just as none of the Alabama or Virginia tribes will fit the criteria for federal recognition -- but those states (plus a few others, but especially those two) have a mechanism for becoming "State Recognized".

So either i.] BIA standards have to change or ii.] More states need to follow the examples of Virginia and Alabama and provide some mechanism for obtaining state recognition, or iii.] things continue as they are in most of the country, and many people of known American Indian descent will never be citizens of any Tribe or Indian Nation or iv.] federally recognized tribes themselves risk losing their status and soveirgnty (for which they have fought long and hard legal battles) for those of us whose ancestors left the tribe at some point.

Of these 4 options, I think "iii." is most likely, with a remote possibility for "ii." People should quit thinkin about "Federal recognition" unless they wanna go on a big publicity campaign writing congress et cetera, to change BIA requirements. It'd be easier to make your home state aware, and states of the "Old South" where "States Rights" people are still powerful, might support the idea of state Recognized tribes.

Since many of the "Greens" have been left off the rolls, I guess this as good a place as any to talk about these things. But I am firmly convinced that step one is realizing the reality of the situation -- NO Federal recognition is possible. Once we realize this we can go on to other possible options.

Since many Federally recognized tribed DO NOT want a group of people calling themselves members of that tribe BUT WILL support known groups calling themselves members of a society, Club, or Association that is interested in the welfare of that tribe, this is the best a person who lives in a state that has no laws for state recognition, can hope for. Let the federally recognized people know us face to face in such organizations, and walk from there. This is my "pulpit" and I get on it every chance I get. ha ha. This can be done immeditely, without any kissin' up to any politian. I've talked to CNO officials and they would SUPPORT this idea!!! BUT when I brought it up to Mo & Ar groups, they thought I was the anti-Christ and tore me to shreds! I gave up. But when I hear people like you Dan, well -- I wish there were more like you. Maybe one day they'll realize . . . but if they'd realize NOW and start workin' NOW for somethin that is possible, it'd mean less work for their kids to do later.

Time for me to step down off my soapbox and hand the talkin ' stick to someone else. :)

vance-------------------------------------------------------------

Dan Akin
03-15-2003, 09:28 AM
Vance;
I agree with you on this issue 100%. I have racked my brain to try and come up with a solution to this situation. The solution though must be in direct relation to the ultimate goal.
What do all of these people who have come forward to stake a claim on the Cherokee Nation want? Well, of course, they want to step up and be counted as fully designated cherokees by everyone on earth and this should be done simply on the basis of them saying it should be so.
This goal is not realistic. It's a myth.
In line with what you pointed out, we must work to alter and change that goal. That can only come about by people like you Vance "Preaching" the truth and not accepting anything less than the truth. You have been very brave.
Simply put, our goal should be to gather together to honor our great culture and heritage and the memory of our beloved ancestors. Why should it be anything else?
We should also grow to love and support our cherokee brothers and sisters that chose to remain in the Cherokee Nation.
The Cherokee story and it's history is very complicated, but extremely fascinating. With the cherokee border stretching from Ga. through S.C., N.C., to Virginia and later Tennessee and Al. litterally hundreds and hundreds of whites and blacks had married cherokee people over a 200 year stretch.
Elements of at least a dozen other tribes have also been a part or became a part of the Cherokee Nation in recorded history.
We must study and continue to dig deep into recorded, documented history to learn about our people. It is by and because of ignorance that so many are led astray.
Lastly Vance, let's be proud of who we really are including all of our ancestry be it white, black, red, or whatever. Many "Cherokee" groups want you to focuss on just your Indian heritage and deny everything else.
I am proud of my French Hugenot families of Via, Fugate and Maupin and my Scots and Irish families of Akin, Mckee, Jamison and Robinson, and my German families of Starnes, Brink, and Stivers and my English families of Baker, Peoples, and Stone.
Hawkins, what a great name that is.
Dan.

vance hawkins
03-15-2003, 07:53 PM
thanks Dan!

ha ha -- pretty good. if you go to www.turtletown.com -- it is run by a friend of mine -- he's the guy who talked me into the stance I now have. the ideas I spoke of are his originally.

I am also Scots-Irish, German, English, Dutch, Dad said French but I have never found it and neither did he, AS WELL AS Cherokee, and I believe "Blackfoot" too from evidence found here on this website. And there is Akin on mom's side of the family, by the way. Mom's side has Plaster (originally Plascher, but it was Anglicized), Jonas (called Black Dutch from Pa to Ill to Tx to Ok), Attaberry, McLain(various spellings), Porter, Walker (Ms).

But I can not say 100 percent that all "Blackfoot" are Saponi (Sorry Linda) -- I am not yet convinced of this. I need a correlation between the surnames who are known Saponi and the believed Blackfoot surnames of people claiming "Blackfoot" ancestry. A simple statistical test can be performed . . . :)

But Linda, you are most of the way there.

Dad said the "Hawkins" name by the way came from Ireland :).

Akin is a pretty good name too.

vance hawkins

vance hawkins
03-15-2003, 07:54 PM
sorry -- that's www.turtletown.org, not .com

vance

CoheeLady
03-15-2003, 08:02 PM
Dan,
Just a note to let you know, that I am of French Huguenot descent too. My French Huguenot ancestors surnames are: Agee, Bondurant, Chastain, & Faure.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

Dan Akin
03-15-2003, 08:58 PM
Coheelady;
The French Hugenots are a fine people. They came early to colonial Va. and contributed a great deal to the history of America.
My multiple great grandfather Gabriel Maupin (it means pinecone in French) became the man in charge of the armory in Williamsburg. His grandson Gabriel Maupin hosted the first Masons in Williamsburg in his tavern. Many of America's founding- fathers attended there.
In my Maupin line I am related to myself. Two Maupin lines came back together here in central Mo. and later "viola" there was me.
My Fugates settled in southwest Va. at the foot of Clinch Mountain on Moccasin Creek where some of them took cherokee brides. Some of those that didn't became so inter-married that they became the "Blue" Fugates. They acquired a genetic disease that made their skin the color of a blue workshirt.
The Via's descend from the main overseer of the Maupin's forest holdings in Pyranees France.
I would love to hear of your Hugenots.

Vance;
I have been working with Darren McCathern of the Chickamaugas. He helped bring me out of the brain-washed state that I was in. His web-site is http://www.comanchelodge.com/chickamauga-cherokee.html
I owe Darren a great deal of thanks.
Dan.

vance hawkins
03-16-2003, 11:06 PM
Well I'll just have to say I owe a great debt of gratitude to Mike Johnson. He is the creator of www.turtletown.org

What Mike Johnson says he can provide documentation for. He is a friend of Chad Smith, Principle Chief of CNO. He is unenrolled and unenrollable, but that doesn't stop their friendship.

I have a running quarrel with Darren because of what he says about enrolled Cherokees on his website. When I read a web page and someone says the Chickamaugans did this and that but provides no documentation to back it up, I question that persons version of history. Ask Darren to provide documentation to support his accusations against enrolled Cherokees on his web page and see what he says. :) ha ha -- this probably isn't the right forum to bring this up, tho.

I live in Comanche country, Southwestern Oklahoma, and have lived here most of my 50 years on this earth. I have Looney, Guess, and Brown surnamed Chickamaugan ancestors who lived pretty close to Darrens, and we've e-mailed before. I even have a grandma named "Loney" and he has one named "Lonie" I think! But he's just wrong about enrolled Cherokee people. He's got some good ideas, but he's wrong about that. Ask him for documented proof of his statements -- he just made some of that "Chickamaugan History" up . . . sorry. That is unless he changed his web site, I haven't looked at it in mnths.

vance

techteach
03-17-2003, 03:22 PM
Vance:

I am interested in your McLains. My ggggrandmother was a McLane, sometimes spelled as other versions of the name. She is my ancestor who claimed to be Blackfoot. She was from Beaver County, PA. , but reportedly was an orphan. None of the family investigating that line of the family has been able to find out any information about her parents, nor specific records of birth. Are your McLains native?

Cindy

vance hawkins
03-21-2003, 09:34 AM
Dan, I sent you a couple of private messages concerning Darren's website. Please maintain that confidentiality.

Techteach, My McClain's can be traced back to Scotland. When King James I of England (the Stewart line and known as King James V of Scotland and publisher of the King James Bible) came to power, many Scotsmen emigrated to Northern Ireland. A generation later many of these people came to American and became what we now call the Scots-Irish. Well, My McClains went to Ireland and a generation later came to Amrica settling in Virginia. Now some of moms folks were called "Black Dutch" -- but I think that was the Jonas'es. I have never heard of Indian rleatives through Mom's side of the family, but there is this "Black Dutch" thing some have said was Indian. I also read that meant "German Jew" and "Jonas" was sometimes associated with Jewsish surnames.

Wish I could be more help.

vance

techteach
03-26-2003, 10:56 AM
Vance:
Any idea where in Virginia? My McLane has no listed parents. She was an orphan in Western PA, but there were some family members from the VA area. I doubt any connection can be made, because we are even unsure of a birthdate, but since this family has the "Black Dutch" name and my McLane was Blackfoot... That is, if I understood you correctly and this descriptor does apply to your McLains and not your Jones.

Cindy

vance hawkins
03-26-2003, 11:33 PM
Hi Techteach,

I'll have to look it up. It might take a while, tho.

But I promise, I WILL get back to you about this soon.

vance

techteach
03-27-2003, 11:15 AM
Thanks Vance,
I know this is only a long shot, but if anything comes of it, I have several family members who are very interested in who our McLane was and where she came from. As I indicated before, my gggrandmother, Nancy Agnes McLane, is my Eastern Blackfoot link.

Cindy

traytoria
03-30-2003, 11:21 AM
Hello everyone. I am a cousin of Troy and Dan. Dan sent me the link to this forum and what a joy to see a place where we can share our thoughts, documentation, etc. Great Place DAN! I've found that the reading has been interesting and insightful. I will keep coming back to see what's happening and to offer any documentation that I can contribute. Thanks again.

Vic

Linda
03-30-2003, 08:49 PM
Welcome Vic, we hope to see you around.

Bill Childs
04-19-2003, 07:38 PM
Dan,
Lots of questions......
Do these 1830 Henry Co., Ky GREENs belong to Benjamin and his sons' family group ?
James, 40 to 49.
Richard, 30 to 39.
John, 50 to 59.
James, 20 to 29.
Nancy, 20 to 29.
Abraham, 20 to 29.
John, 30 to 39.
Levi, 20 to 29.
Angeline, 20 to 29.
Nancy, 30 to 39.
Richard, 20 to 29.
Is the Elias Gardner, 30 to 39, with 3 FPC in his household and living two doors away from the above John Green (50 to 59), related to Benjamin?
Are the Isaac, Richard & Stephen Green on the 1800 Henry Co. Tax Lists your GREENs ?
Did all of your GREENs move to Mo.?
Just 5 or 6 miles down the road in Shelby County is Thomas and another James Green who are related to my LEEs and their Warren, Montgomery and Kitson kin from Henry Co. One of the Montgomery's boys (William, 1) is living with John Green, 78, b.Va., on the 1850 Henry Co Census.
Are we related to the same lines?
Bill

Dan Akin
04-24-2003, 12:08 AM
Bill;
It is nice to meet you on this forum.
Isaac Green is believed to be the brother of my Benjamin Green of Henry County Ky.. Richard and Stephen on the 1800 census are probably Isaac's sons.
Benjamin arrived some time in 1801 and as far as we know his children were James, John, Isaac and Dicey Ann.
My James was born in 1788/89 in Sullivan County Tn. before arriving in Henry County and by the 1830 census the grandchildren of Benjamin are starting to appear.
Also in Henry County is a man from Culpepper County Va., William Green, and his sons.
There is a possible earlier connection with all of these Greens in Culpepper and Prince George Counties in Va..
Isaac Green, the older one, died in Henry County in 1809. After his wife died Benjamin, along with his sons James and John and his daughter Dicey Ann Green Boyd, moved here in Boone County Mo. ca. 1831/33.
My Greens lived on Drennon's Creek. Do you know anything about that area? My Loudens had Louden's/Lowden's Landing.
I have found a connection that traces my Green family back along with Stephen Green and his family of Madison County Ky. and the Green family migrating out of Mecklinburg County Va.. After his death and burial in Madison County, Stephen Green's family also migrated to Boone County Mo..
I am convinced now that my 5th greatgrandfather, Gardner Green, is the Gardner found on the 1764 Titheables list for old Lunenburg (now Mecklinburg, Halifax, etc.) County Va..
Do you have legends of Native American ancestry in your family? Do members of your family also look Native American?
Dan.

techteach
04-24-2003, 07:42 AM
Bill and Dan:
If you ever run across Greens from Licking County, Ohio or Shepherdstown, WV, these might very well be my Greens. Let me know if you do. I have a book called The Green Tree that outlines this line. They were native American and look it, although we think they were Shawnee. The name of the Green who left Berkely County was Regnald.

Cindy

Dan Akin
04-24-2003, 11:15 PM
Techteach;
I will keep an eye out.
That Shawnee thing makes me wonder also.
I know it isn't popular, but the Shawnees lived for a time all over Mo.. In the Boone's Lick area of central Mo. thay served as guides and scouts for the local militias.
50 Shawnee braves were with Col. Henry Dodge and Capt. Benjamin Cooper when they cornered 500 Miamis at Malta Bend Mo. in the early 1800's.
Shawnee scouts were with Capt. Callaway when he was killed on the Loutre River.
The Shawnee had towns above Cape Girardieu along the Miss. River, on the Meremec River, at Owens Station in St. Louis County. at Lake Wappapello in southeast Mo., and a reservation just to the east of Springfield.
Here in Boone County we have a mysterious family of Ketchums who say they are cherokee, but the Ketchum name is found on U.S. treaties with the Shawnee.
One of the Ketchum descendants, a strange fellow, always said that he had been taught an Indian language by his grandfather. Although he could speak it very fluently it sounded very weird and certainly wasn't Cherokee.
Dan.

techteach
04-25-2003, 12:04 AM
Dan:
Why do you say that it is not popular? Is is a Missouri thing, i.e. they do not want to admit that there were anything but white in MO? (I lived for 4 years in Cape Girardeau, so I am familiar with your areas. I did not know that Lorimer's wife was half Shawnee until a month or so ago. I used to take my students to the old cemetery to do a learning activity on heritage.)
Thanks for any assistance. I did not find a Gardner Green in the book though. This family was in Licking County, Ohio before the elements I came from moved to Jackson County, Iowa.

Cindy

Dan Akin
04-25-2003, 07:19 AM
Cindy;
Elements of no less than 26 different tribes lived in Mo. during it's developement between 1750 and up until 1850. Almost every white village in the colonial period through the territorial perioid had Indian villages next to them.
Pierre LeClede was led by his Ojibway guides when the first white man established a camp in what was to become St. Louis Mo.
Thomas Jefferson had set the Missouri Territory aside for a refuge (or dumping ground) for imigrating eastern tribes. It was to become an Indian State, but then the government in Washington changed their minds, and picked the Kansas Territory, and then the Oklahoma Territory, and then ...
These tribes were colonizing imigrants just like the whites. American Indians had as much, if not more, participation in the developement of the State of Mo. as any other ethnic group, and yet after statehood the Mo. Legislature passed a law making it illegal to do commerce with almost all of the Natives living in the state.
The real. complete history of the state of Mo. hasn't even been written yet.
Dan.

Bill Childs
04-25-2003, 08:55 AM
Dan,

My GREENs were in that area. My RAZORs lived on Drennon's Ridge, above the creek. I know the area. The GREENs were Indian per a Grandmother of a living LEE descended from them, and I'm of multiple lines of Indian descent.

I have a considerable amount of data on these GREENs that includes Marriage Bonds, Will abstracts & Census data - all from Ky. You may already have that data but if not I'll send it along to you. I haven't sorted them out thoroughly because they are related thru indirect lines.

Benjamin's son John had a son John, b.ca. 1811, Henry Co., Ky, who marr'd 1835, Sarah Burns, b.1814 Henry Co, Ky - their children were in the Carroll, Henry, Shelby and Franklin Co areas of Ky. Sarah Burns' father John Burns, b.1763, lived in Southeastern Indiana at a time when this area was Indian Territory.

James and John GREEN were still in Henry Co in 1840.

Isaac Frederick GREEN jr, (son (?) of Isaac GREEN sr.,d.1809 Henry Co., Ky), was marr'd 26 Oct 1808 Caty Wainscot, d. 1810, probably the dau or sister of Abraham Wainscott, who administered her inventory of effects Nov 14, 1810.

An Isaac, Richard and Stephen GREEN are on the 1800 Henry Co., Ky Tax List Index.

Your Dicey Ann, dau of Benjamin, marr'd John Boyd on 24 Dec 1805 in Henry Co., KY.

I have a Will abstract for Stephen Green of Madison Co., Ky, naming wife and children.

The marriage data shows that several of these GREENs (probably Benjamin's (?) sons and grandsons) married my direct line of ROBERTs girls who were also of Indian descent.
Other girls they marr'd were FOLSOM, GREEN, 3 ROBERTS, ABBOTT, LANDON & BAXTER.
Bill

Bill Childs
04-25-2003, 09:10 AM
Cindy,
I looked these up :

Washington Co., Ohio was formed in 1788.
Fairfield Co., Oh., was created in 1800 from Washington Co.
Licking Co., Oh., was created in 1808 from Fairfield.
..............................
On the 1800 Washington Co., Oh. Census, noted as living in Ohio Territory on the East side of the Sciota River :
Allen, George, John, William & Nelam.
..............................
On the 1800 Washington Co., Oh., Tax Lists :
John, in Adams Twp.
John, in Middletown Twp.
Christopher "& E.", in an extended Twp.
John, in Newport Twp.
Benjamin, in Newton Twp.
..............................
On the 1810 Licking Co., Ohio Tax List :
Charles, in Granville Twp.
George, in Granville Twp.
2 Benjamins, in Licking Twp.
Daniel, in Licking Twp.
James, in Newton Twp.
James, in Union Twp.
...............................
Bill

Dan Akin
04-25-2003, 07:08 PM
Bill;
Well then, it sure appears to be that we are cousins. Not only that but you are probably related to both my mother and father. My mother through the Greens and my father through the Roberts. I am a Roberts twice over (two generatioins marrying back into the Roberts family) in my Jessie Baker line. That is how these families have been, intermarrying and a couple of generations later marrying back in again.
My mom and dad's greatgrandmas were sisters.

Do you know very much about the Greens before they went to Kentucky?
What has your family said about themselves? We are searching for the early 1700's origins.
Dan.

Bill Childs
04-25-2003, 10:21 PM
Dan,
Yeah, it looks like we are cousins.
I don't have anything definite on the GREENs before Ky - just started looking 3 days ago when I found out my LEE cousin didn't have much on them. Looking for them, I did find the progenator's of the Licking Co., Oh (Northwest Territory) GREENs but they are a different line as it looks at the moment.
My family is so mixed they didn't feel the need to talk about it very often, I guess.
I'll let you know if I turn up anything more on the GREENs before Ky.
Bill

techteach
04-25-2003, 11:01 PM
Bill:

Thanks for looking this information up for me. I did not know about the Licking County history. At least some, if not all those Greens are likely related to me. The first Green who came from VA that I am directly descended from according to the genealogy in The Green Tree was Regnal Green Sr who died in Fairfield County. His daughter, Elizabeth would be my ggggggrandmother. He had sons Charles - d. Licking County, John - d. Fairfield County, Allen - d. Franklin County, Thomas - d. Licking County, George Washington - d. Licking County, William - d. Union County, and Regnal Jr. - d. Licking County. His daughter married Andrew Huston who is one of those unknowns. We are not sure who his is, where he came from nor where he is buried. The Greens are believed to be Shawnee. The daughter moved to Jackson County Iowa, where her granddaughter definitely looks Indian. She wore her cole-black hair in braids and her uncle danced at yearly family gatherings.



Cindy

techteach
04-25-2003, 11:08 PM
Dan:
I thought you meant that in your comment of Missouri. We were shocked when we got our first bus tour of the bootheel area around Cape Girardeau and had the segregated towns pointed out to us.

Cindy

Brenda Collins Dillon
04-26-2003, 09:26 AM
Dan and Tech:

Do you connect with any PERRY/LYONS/ALLMAN families from that same county. That is where my mother's Perry line ended up in Wesley Township. Perry's are buried in Union cemetary there.

Brenda

Linda
04-26-2003, 09:38 AM
I was sure we had family in Licking County, OH, though I just tried to look it up in our family genealogy book, and couldn't find it. I hate that. Lots of people in Ross County, two counties up, but where in the heck did I see Licking County?

techteach
04-26-2003, 09:49 AM
Brenda:
I searched The Green Tree and the Green genealogy file that I have. I found a couple of people but unrelated to your people in Ohio as far as I can tell. One was a Perry in California and a Lyons in Guthrie Center, Iowa. There is a Thomas Perry mentioned as someone who files a support claim to a Revolutionary War penion claim by the widow of Thomas Butt in The Green Tree. I suspect none of these is related to your line though. My Greens have not yet been connected with anyone on this site that I am aware of. Other Greens went south. Mine went to Ohio and Iowa. They are the maternal side of my ggrandfather's family. My Blackfoot ID comes from the paternal side of the Ralston family.

Cindy

Bill Childs
04-27-2003, 12:07 PM
Brenda,
Ross County was also formed (1798) from Washington County, N.W. Territory, just as Licking Co. was. Maybe that's the link.
Bill

Dan Akin
05-16-2003, 06:28 PM
Everyone;
I am looking for an Indian by the name of William Joyner.
In Virginia Easley DeMarce's "Raw Notes" on her study of the Sizemore family (the Sizemores related to the Henry Green family of old Lunenburg now Mecklinburg County Va.) she mentions a William Joyner listed next to George Sizemore. She wrote; William Joyner, "An old indian man's list" note: The only notation that William Joyner was indian was in 1750. George Sizemore was listed next to William Joyner in the tax list so it is possible the Sizemores and MANY OTHER FAMILIES intermarried with the early indian families. Tax lists may help prove the tradition of indian ancestry and pinpoint the period of origin.
This list in 1750 was the titheables list for Lunenburg County Va. taken by Cornelius Cargill.
Dan Akin.

Linda
05-16-2003, 07:27 PM
What kind of list were they referring to when they said "an old Indian man's list?"

Dan Akin
05-17-2003, 11:22 AM
Linda;
From what I understand that is the way it appears on the 1750 Tithables List - William Joyner "an old Indian man's list" 1.
One being his tithe or tax.
She also offers this (I assume this is for Virginia); By an act of 9 May, 1723 it was enacted "That all free negros, mulattoes, or Indians (except tributary Indians to the government) male and female above the age of 16 years and all wives of such negros, mulattoes, or Indians (except before excepted) shall be deemed and accounted thithables; any law, custom, or usage to the contrary, in any wise, not withstanding."
Does this mean you were your own property and had to pay taxes on yourself?
Dan.

techteach
05-17-2003, 02:15 PM
Dan:

Do you think that this listing was something that happened in other parts of Virginia? My Greens were from Berkeley County, and the family believes that they were native, but I am not sure that anyone has found direct documentation. Maybe this type of documentation might be there?

Cindy

Dan Akin
05-17-2003, 06:00 PM
Cindy;
I'm sorry I don't know. A few are listed as mulattoe on the old tithables lists for old Lunenburg County Va.
When you read some of the old wills they name their indian slaves.
One of the mulattoes in Lunenburg was named Roberts and, although I don't know of a connection, there was a Roberts family that came from Henry County Ky. to Boone County Mo. with the Green family in the early 1800's that claim native american descent with the oral legend of being cherokee. I am also descended from those people.
Dan.

Dan Akin
06-21-2003, 03:48 PM
Everyone;
I'm looking for information on the Yamacraw Tribe that used to be on the Big South Fork of the Cumberland River in present day McCreary County Ky.
Were they Siuoan/Blackfoot or Iriquioan? Who were some of their chiefs and headmen? Were they connected to Doublehead or Red Bird of the Chickamauga Cherokees?
Thank! Dan Akin.

vance hawkins
06-22-2003, 09:15 AM
Dan my great great grandparents, David B. Brown and Harriet Guess., raised 3 orphans. This was in Arkansas. One was "Nancy Joiner". There was a Joiner who married a McNutt in Tennessee and we think the girl was their child. In 1850 census she is listed as "Nancy Joiner" and the census records say she is an orphan. On 1860 census she is Nancy J. Brown and it no longer calls her an orphan. Later in the 1860s she marries Alfred Brown, David's younger brother and truly becomes a Brown. Their daughter Mary J. Brown (David and Alfred's mother was Mary, and we think the "J" is for Joiner) is 16 years old in 1880 and is listed as a "cousin" liviing with my great grandparents, Jeffrey Richey and Josephine Brown Richey.

Also I've seen the McNutt surname spelled McKnight. The 2 surnames appear to have either gotten mixed up or they have a common root, I don't know which.

These McNutt/McKnights and Joiners have puzzled me a while now. If you have anymore about the Joiners, well I'd appreciate it.

best wishes

vance

ps -- we have some evidence finally that David's mother's maiden name was "Black", Mary Black. We have found the Black and Brown surnames a couple of counties from the western tip of North Carolina on the same census pages showing they were neighbors and other later census records say she was born in NC. There is a record of Mary Black marrying John Brown in 1818 in Lawrence County, Alabama. After John died Mary and her kids moved to Arkansas.

George
06-22-2003, 03:04 PM
The little bit of info on the Yamacraw that I have indicates that they are part of the YAMASEE people ,the Yamasee people speak a Muskhogean dialect.
you can find this info in a book by John Reed Swanton{ Indian Tribes of North America }
Here is a quote from page 116, Of some historical importance is a small band of these indians who seem to have lived with the Apalachicola for a time,after the Yamasee war,and in 1730 settled on the site of what is now Savannah under the name of Yamacraw.
Hope this helps Dan

George

P.S. the Apalachicola people are also Muskhogean speaking people.

Dan Akin
07-01-2003, 09:17 PM
George;
Thank you so much! You were right. The yamacraw seem to have also been associated with the Creek Confederacy. Their band was never very large, around 100 souls.
The Yamacraws envited the English to build a trading fort at the present site of Savannah, Ga. and darn if the whites didn't take over.
George, have you ever heard why a little piece of Kentucky was named after them or if present day Ky. was a location of their wanderings?
I remember an old 1740's map somewhere that showed Savannah Shawnees living across the Tennessee River from the Overhills Cherokee.
Dan Akin.

Proud_Butterfly
04-23-2004, 02:16 PM
[COLOR=indigo]

Thank you so much for the info on the Green/ Sizemore connections. My ggg grandmother was Mahala Sizemore,grt. grand daughter of Edward Sizemore b abt 1725 Va.
Thanks to you and so many others our search was made a little easier today. You furbished new leads and places to search.
Although it is still unclear what we are in our Sizemore line. One thing is for sure, we are all human. I hate the racial check marks required on forms. I often times check other and write human.
Edward B Sizremore settled in Logan Co. Pineville WVa and left that area in 1853 and went into Webster Co. WV. He later returned to Pineville where he passed on to spirit in 1856. But his family members remained in Webster Co. There are Greens in Diana, Webster Co WVa. They owned and operated the general store and post office for yrs. I just think its strange that after all that time had past, the Green and Sizrmore names keep popping up in the same areas.
Again Thanks
And
Happy Hunting

Bill Childs
04-24-2004, 11:37 AM
Is your Edward Sizemore the Edward ("Ned") Sizemore, b. abt. 1725 LUNENBURG Co., Va. ?

Land listed "Entry Record Book" dated Oct 9, 1746, 400 acres on the South side of Banister (Riv.) opposite the mouth of PoleCat Crk. (This corresponds to the year he would have turned 21 and "of legal age" to own land.)
(Bannister River begins in the present county of Pittsylvania and flows thru Halifax County before it flows into the Dan River east of South Boston, Va.)
(This Edward d. 1810 Hawkins Co., Tenn)

A possible clue to his father:
William Sizemore, bought (from Edw'd Owen) 200 acres on the north side of the Banister below the mouth of Wynne's Crk, 5 years earlier on Oct 17, 1741.
(this was a very convoluted arrangement: This land was first surveyed for Wm. Sizemore by P.F., but was entered by Joseph CLOUD who transferred it to Edw'd OWEN, who then sold it to Wm. Sizemore.)

This line contains some Sizemores who passed thru Floyd, Clay, Maggofin Co. Ky and some of these went to Ohio and WVa.

I found a website (Lella Hite's) with a ton of Sizemore data and photos if this is your line. (#@$&!* - I didn't check to see if it could be accessed directly from the forum - I'll do that and post it if it works.)
.....................

Henry GREEN, Oct 13, 1743 - 400 acres on the north side of the Dan River. (would have been Brunswick Co in 1743)

(bear in mind that the Virginia - N.Carolina border was not accurately surveyed until about 1790 and no one was certain if they lived in Va. or N.C. prior to that. Many of these Land Entry Records are in fact for land in NC. that borders present-day Va.)
Bill

Bill Childs
04-24-2004, 11:45 AM
Lella Hite's website:

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/h/i/t/Lella-Hite/index.html?Welcome=1082816475

scroll down for photos and "Sizemore Births and Deaths"
ot go to
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/h/i/t/Lella-Hite/COL1-0002.html
for Edward (Ned) Sizemore.

Charles Orear
09-08-2005, 08:14 PM
Greetings all,

Sorry about staying away so long. I found something that I feel will interest all you Green descendents. In the Virginia Magazine of History and Biography Vol. VIII No. I, July 1900 pp 5-11 gives the testimonies of people from the Ft. Christanna region in 1711 for the VA_NC Boundry Case. The comissonors interview Anglo and Natives. Please note the use of Anglo-surnames in use already by 1711.
pg 4 "Exam. of ye Wyanoke Indian Women yet live at ye Nottoway Towne..Jenny, Cpt. Pearce's daughter, aged as we suppose about sixty..."
pg 6 "Vig'a: Nansemond Indian Town....Thom Green & others, old men of ye Nottoway Indians, aged as we suppose, about seventy-five.."

Didn't the Nottoway, and Wyanoke go to Ft. Christanna? Could the Greens of Greenstown and those of Blackfoot ID have come from this man?

Charles Orear
PS I hope Dan Akin reads this post.

Dan Akin
09-09-2005, 12:07 PM
Charles, old friend, it is so very good to hear from you. I hope you are all well. Thank you for the info. It is quite possible that my Greens were Nottaway. There was a community that sprang up around the old Nottaway village in Virginia. The Wynnes were a part of the mix there and were interpretors to the Nottaway. They became a part of the migration into old Lunenburg County Va. (Dan and Roanoke rivers watershed) then to the New River and beyond. I am also interested in their possible connection to the Wynns of 1800 and Fayette Co. Ky. These Ky. Wynns removed to Mo. after the War of 1812 and are related and intermarried into my gggrandmother's family of Brink. Boone County Mo. families that claim ancient Cherokee ancestors. Thank you Charles. I will send this on to the Green Family Historical Society.
Dan.

Linda
09-09-2005, 10:46 PM
Interesting. There are Greens in Greentown, Brunswick County, VA who say they are Blackfoot. That's my ex's family. On his father's side, from Mecklenburg, Va, the next county over, there's Wynns, though the relationship is "unofficial" or what they liked to call "illegitimate" in those days. By blood, my last name (by marriage) should be Wynn.

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
09-29-2005, 02:04 PM
Just thought I would throw something into the Green information here in case it provides another piece of the puzzle to someone.

My folks, like Brenda Dillon Collins' people, were in SW VA, so I tend to check out the old SWVA counties, etc. From the Russell County USgenweb site is the following article referencing a LEWIS and a JAMES GREEN. I kept the bit abt. Kilgore in the quote because it details nicely the migration route some of these early settlers took before finally winding up where ever they died.

This Lewis Green and James Green, etc. were settled on Stony Creek near Blackmore's Fort. The Minutes for the Stony Creek Baptist Church are one of the earliest places the word "Melungeon" was recorded. The oral hisory was that the Melungeons claimed to be friendly Indians who came west with the settlers. Ft. Blackmore is noted. A Jack Goins has done a lot of research on this Saponi migration to SWVA, TN...it overlaps with Brenda Dillon Collins work, and this area is where all my line found themselves-- at least this way back area of SWVA. Anyway, I thought that it might be important for you to know abt. these Greens.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~varussel/indian/56.html

. "....M. Addington, History of Scott County, page 303, says:
In march, 1783 (incorrect date) Charles Kilgore (error: Robert Kilgore, his brother), James Green, and a man by the name of McKinney, left Ft. Blackmore and went to the Pound River in Wise County to hunt, and while there were surprised by the Indians, and Charles (Robert) and James Green were killed. McKinney made his escape and returned to the fort. A searching party led by McKinney found the bodies of Charles Kilgore (Robert Kilgore) and James Green, and buried them in the hollow of a large chestnut tree on the north bank of Pound Rive,r a short distance above the mouth of Indian Creek.

Mr. Addington is definitely wrong on the date that James Green was killed, but as to whether Charles Kilgore was killed or not there are facts that seem to deny it and others that seem to bear it out, as will be shown.

The date of the killing of James Green is proven by Russell Co., VA, Court Order Book 3, page 266, dated the 27th of December, 1803, which entry reads: "Ordered that it be certified to the Registrar of the Land Office that it is proven to this court that James Green is the son and heir at law of James Green, who was killed by the savages on the 31st of December, 1782, and that the said James Green, the younger was born on the 12th of February, 1783."

James Green who was slain was a son of Lewis Green, and had settled on Stony Creek near Blackmore’s Fort. He had married Jane, the daughter of Patrick and Ann Porter of Porter’s Fort, who was born September 9, 1761. James Green, Jr., born posthumously, was the only child of James and Jane Porter Green. James Green, Jr., married Dulcena, a daughter of Samuel and Jaelia Duncan Stallard. Sometime after the slaying of James Green, his widow married Robert Kilgore, and they built the old Kilgore fort house still standing in Scott Co., VA on Copper Creek, west of Nickelsville. Here they lived out the balance of their lives, and Robert, born June 30, 1765, dying on march 29, 1854, and his wife Jane, on September 25, 1842.

Charles Kilgore had emigrated from Orange Co., NC, and settled on the east side of Falling Creek, opposite Porter’s Fort, on a tract of 286 acres of land in the year 1773, with his wife, Winnie Clayton (error: Winnie was the wife of his brother, Robert Kilgore) and his family. He served and was wounded at the Battle of Kings Mountain. Both James Green and Charles Kilgore appear in the 1782 tithable lists of Washington Co., VA, but in 1783, only his wife Winnie appears, as does Jane Green, the wife of James. (Error: Charles Kilgore does appear on the 1783 Washington Co., VA Tithable list). This would seem to bear out the fact that both James Green and Charles Kilgore were dead in 1783.

Some aver that Charles Kilgore sold his land in Scott Co. and removed to Greene Co., TN, where he died. There is also evidence to bear out this assertion, that is, if the two Charles Kilgores were one and the same. Katherine Keagh White, in her book, King’s Mountain Men, says of this Charles that he was a Private under Campbell at King’s Mountain and was wounded. He was placed on the pension rolls of Greene Co. in 1809, and in 1820 he is listed as an invalid with an annual allowance of $48 a year.

Charles Kilgore had a son, Charles Kilgore, Jr., who was born in Orange Co., NC, January 4, 1764. Charles Kilgore, Jr., filed a Revolutionary pension claim in Davies Co., Indiana, in 1833, in which he tells of his serving on the Southwestern Virginia frontier as an Indian spy and guarding the frontier forts. No place in this pension statement does he mention being at the battle of King’s Mountain, but definitely lists all his services as on the frontier. This Charles Kilgore says that in 1787 he moved to Greene Co., TN, where he lived for six or seven years. If, as he says, he lived in Greene Co., six or seven years, then he could not have been the Charles who was pensioned in 1809. From Greene Co. he says he moved to Pendleton Co., SC, where he lived a few years, and then back t Washington Co., VA, thence to Wayne Co., KY, where he lived until 1815. This latter date would also eliminate him as the Charles who was allowed a pension in Greene Co., TN, in 1820. From Wayne Co., KY he moved to Lawrence, then on to Davies Counties in Indiana, where he died June 1, 1857......."

Brenda

Carroll
09-29-2005, 09:33 PM
Dan Akin

I found this website searching for my Lewis family it has some Green(e) in it but I did not see a Gardner.
www.virginians.com

It also has alot of Lunenberg, Mecklenburg families in it too. I think it said 82,000 names.

Carroll

Charles Orear
10-01-2005, 11:59 PM
Brenda,

Good find there. Hello, my name is Charles Orear, my maternal Grandmother and her family came from Lawrence/Elliot County KY. You will find the Greens you mentioned having migrated into that area there on the Big Sandy, along with the Stallards and others. I recently found out way back in the ol' family tree I descend from these same Stallards and Duncans. The families from this area that I descend from that I am most interested in at this time are,
Creech
Prince
Holbrook
Sparks
Rigsby,Riggsby
Skaggs
Wheeler
Deboard
Terry

Charles

quest for facts
10-02-2005, 04:20 AM
Hi everyone,
I descend from the Wynnes....one line out of Surry County who married into my Sessums line and I believe we also descend from the indian interpreter Wynnes although this one is not completely proven it looks like it is probable and most likely. Those Wynnes mixed with the Nottoways quite regular. :D Funny thing when I was in high school one of my best friends was a Wynne we had no idea we are most likely distant cousins. Good ole Edgecombe County North Carolina is full of mixed bloods. One of my aunts maiden name is Winn.
Linda

Bryan Lewis
10-12-2005, 07:11 PM
Dan,

My family followed a similar migration pattern as yours. We have an oral tradition of Cherokee descent and we also claimed "Blackfoot" and "Black Kettle Dutch." I always thought that the Blackfoot designation was completely off-track as that tribe originated in the Northwest. Through further searching I found the Saponi site and possible connections.

My family surnames include Goff, Thompson, Stevenson, Ranson, and others. I have found through census records That our ancestors lived in S/E Kentuckey (Pulaski County), Tenessee, Virginia, etc., then moved on to Illinois in the 1830's. Then migrating into Missouri in the late 1830's early 1840's. They were in Boone Co. for the 1850 census, then moved on to Morgan, Cooper, and Benton Co.'s.

I looked into the Northern Cherokee groups as a possible answer to my searching, but like you, I'm not sure about the accuracy of their claims. I will post my family history to the geaneology section when I have more time. My grandfather's generation had the appearence of being at least 1/2 NA. Many of us, including me, still have high cheekbones, darker skin, black/brown hair and dark brown eyes, etc.

Thanks,
Bryan Lewis

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
10-26-2005, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
Just thought I would throw something into the Green information here in case it provides another piece of the puzzle to someone.

This Lewis Green and James Green, etc. were settled on Stony Creek near Blackmore's Fort. The Minutes for the Stony Creek Baptist Church are one of the earliest places the word "Melungeon" was recorded. The oral hisory was that the Melungeons claimed to be friendly Indians who came west with the settlers. Ft. Blackmore is noted. A Jack Goins has done a lot of research on this Saponi migration to SWVA, TN...it overlaps with Brenda Dillon Collins work, and this area is where all my line found themselves-- at least this way back area of SWVA. Anyway, I thought that it might be important for you to know abt. these Greens.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~varussel/indian/56.html


"...The date of the killing of James Green is proven by Russell Co., VA, Court Order Book 3, page 266, dated the 27th of December, 1803, which entry reads: "Ordered that it be certified to the Registrar of the Land Office that it is proven to this court that James Green is the son and heir at law of James Green, who was killed by the savages on the 31st of December, 1782, and that the said James Green, the younger was born on the 12th of February, 1783."

James Green who was slain was a son of Lewis Green, and had settled on Stony Creek near Blackmore’s Fort. He had married Jane, the daughter of Patrick and Ann Porter of Porter’s Fort, who was born September 9, 1761. James Green, Jr., born posthumously, was the only child of James and Jane Porter Green. James Green, Jr., married Dulcena, a daughter of Samuel and Jaelia Duncan Stallard. Sometime after the slaying of James Green, his widow married Robert Kilgore, and they built the old Kilgore fort house still standing in Scott Co., VA on Copper Creek, west of Nickelsville. Here they lived out the balance of their lives, and Robert, born June 30, 1765, dying on march 29, 1854, and his wife Jane, on September 25, 1842. ..."

Brenda

Not sure if these two Greens are related to the Greens that settled on Stony Creek near BLACKMORE's FORT, but I would guess so. Isn't Pittsylvania Co. a "hotspot" for NA?

from:
List of Tithables Taken by Thomas Dillard, Jr in June 1767
FIRST LIST OF TITHABLES OF PITTSYLVANIA COUNTY, YEAR 1767

The History of Pittsylvania County by Maud Carter Clement

A Lewis & William Green were living in the county.
Also a Benjamin POTTER, others of interest.....


Brenda

Bill Childs
10-26-2005, 11:52 AM
From "Entry Record Book, 1737 - 1770", covering the area which later became Halifax, Pittsylvania, Henry, Franklin & Patrick counties, Virginia.

"Oct 4, 1743: Lewis GREEN enters for 400 acres of land on the south side of Irwin River...."

"Oct 13, 1743: Henry GREEN enters for 400 acres on the north side of Dan River between Jas. Parish and Wm Beans...."
(Jas. Parish had entered on Sep.28,1741:
400 acres in the Fork of Sycamore Crk.
400 acres in the fork of Ready Crk.
400 acres on Sandy Crk at the upper Buffaloe Lick.)

"1755. July 14: Wm Irby GREEN 400 acres on Jno. Cargill's line on the little or Tom's fork of Cane Crk..."

"Ap. 27, 1748: Wm Atkinson 400 on both sides of Flat Creek, a so. branch of Pig River..... transfered to Lewis POTTER."

about a generation later:

"1764. 20 Sepr.: Benjamin POTTER 400 acres on the So. side Pig River...."

"1764. 11th Decr.: William LUCUS 400 on Turkey Creek begining at Thos. POTTER's lower line..." (Thomas named sons Lewis and Benjamin and being in the same general area as Lewis Potter, strongly suggests that Lewis Potter is the father of Benjamin and Thomas.)

I would suspect that Lewis Green's and Lewis Potter's lines were related earlier.

.........
Bill

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
10-26-2005, 03:44 PM
Thanks, Bill, for adding to this. I should mention that the above list [actually, lists] for Pittsylvania County can be found in the archives of the CUMBERLAND-RIVER-L@rootsweb.com mailing list Wednesday, April 23, 2003 from June Bork. One of the lists can be found at:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~vapittsy/tith.htm
A List of Tithables for Pittsylvania County Taken by John Wilson, Gentl, in Year 1767
And includes the following interesting "Indian" notation:
Moses Ridle (Indian)

William Ridle
[Riddle, I presume....]
John Wynne

John Ferrol

Henry Greens Land
Etc.

Bill,

Does your source have anything on this John Ferrol/Ferrell?
I am looking for a John Ferrell, possible father to my William Ferrell, b. abt. 1740 or so, died June 1778 at Thompson's Creek, Washington Co., VA.

Thanks,
Brenda

Bill Childs
10-26-2005, 05:58 PM
Brenda,
From that same source:

"1766. 21. Novr., John FARRILL 400 Ac(res) on the Walnut Bottom fork at the Town Cr(eek) beg(ining) at CHILDS upper line then up on both sides the sd fork."
.......
Bill

techteach
10-26-2005, 08:35 PM
Here's my William Potter information:

William Potter b. 28 Aug 1767 Baltimore city
Maryland married abt 1792 to Racheal Horner
b. 28 Apr 1777 Queenstown, Queen Annes co,
Maryland. William Potter died 24 Jun 1853
Hickory Grove Cemetery, Emeline, Jackson co.
Iowa. Racheal Horner-Potter,died 24 Oct 1865
same as husband.
Children:
1)Nathan Potter b.29 Oct 1795 Baltimore, MD,
d. 3 Aug 1879 Jones co.,IA. Married 1) Fanny
Duel on 27 nov 1821, Licking co., OH 2)
Elspy Gilmore
2)Susannah Potter b.20 Nov 1798 Baltimore, MD
married Hyatt Willison 8 DEC 1818 Licking co,
OH.
3)Luke Potter b.28 April 1802 Fairfax co. VA
d. 30 Oct 1859 Jackson co.,IA. Married
Jane Sinkey 12 DEC 1821 Licking co., OH.
b,1804 d.15 Apr 1858
Daughter of William Sinkey 1750-1840 &
Mary McCartney

4)William Potter b. 1804 Fairfax co.,VA
d.1858 Jones co.,IA. Married 21 Aug 1827 Licking co.,OH 1) Eliza Dewel b.1804 NY d. 1832. 2) widow Mrs. Julia Dewel d. 1876.

5)Rachel Potter b.15 Nov 1808 Fairfax co.,VA
Married George S. Duel d. 7 Dec 1861
on 23 DEC 1825 Licking co,OH

6)Nicolas Potter b.2 FEB 1815 Licking co.,OH
7)Benjamin Potter b.7 DEC 1818 Licking co.,OH
8) Nancy Potter b.27 Jun 1822 Licking co.,OH

Per a introduction in the book of poems
written by George Duel,grandson to William
& Racheal Horner-Potter, titled
"Armeggedon" published 1905,
William Potter's father was also a William
Potter, he came from England as a young man
married a English girl (Ruth Nancy Davis)
and both died of the plague in Baltimore Maryland in 1780.
William Potter b. 1767 appears to have two
older brothers. 1) b. 1763 and 2) b.1765.
their names have not been discovered.
William Potter, joined the 10th Virginia
Regiment as a private.He was 13yrs old in
1780 when he joined Lt. Nathan Lamm's
company a foot.


Techteach

Linda
10-27-2005, 08:32 AM
Here's those pictures you sent me some time ago when I was moving, of Andrew Jackson Sinkey and Nikonha, the "Last of the Tutelo."



http://www.saponitown.com/images/andrew-jackson-sinkey.jpg

http://www.saponitown.com/images/nikohana.jpg

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
10-27-2005, 10:10 AM
Here is a very interesting query from the 1997 archives of the Lower Delmarva mail list at rootsweb.com:



http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ifetch2?/u1/textindices/L/LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS+1997+19233461486+F
"Still looking for Catherine GREEN b. 1815, dau. of Robert GREEN (b. 17??).
New family stories say she came to Somerset from Blackfoot Rez. in Sussex
Co., DE.

She is in Tyaskin HH 880, Somerset Co. 1850 Census. This is the William
HORNER household. Listed, in order, are (GREENs only) John S. GREEN age 13,
Aretta GREEN age 8, Jesse GREEN age 7, and Catherine GREEN age 35.

Q: Why is she listed last? We have no proof that these are her kids. The
family has her as Native American. Could this be the reason?

We haven't found her anywhere else. Oh, assuming this is her since her son
John Henry GREEN b. Mar 22, 1852 married William HORNER's dau. Julia Ann b.
Mar 15, 1862. But have found what we are hoping to be her mother Kitty
GREEN (b. 1800) in every census checked up to 1860. She (Kitty) was listed
as a free colored person in 1840 Som. Census pg. 206. This would confirm a
Native heritage?

Back to Catherine (Katie). The family elders also say she married John Mace
WILLIS (b. Aug 6 1835)(he later married Elizabeth DORSEY according to his
will). And sometime after she beared John Henry GREEN (taking his mother's
surname according to Nanticoke custom) John Mace's parents came to the
Somerset rez (?) and took him home.

Family elders do remember lawyers coming to John Henry's home in Dorch. Co,
to fullfil his father's will and John turned it down saying his father was
no help when he was alive so why should he be when he is dead.

Anyone have any suggestions, further info, or just plain "give up"? Three
cousins and I are all searching everywhere for info and can find absolutely
nothing linking her to anyone else or anywhere else. Or is there anyone in
the area (or anywhere) that specializes in this kinda situation.

Thanks,

John (the Desperate)

John Starkey
SILVPROD@shore.intercom.net"


This would suggest that there were folks still referring to Blackfoot Town or "Blackfoot Rez" as a place after 1785. For GREEN researchers, here is another family tradition that links Green with Blackfoot and Native American heritage. Is John Starkey on our list here????

Brenda

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
10-27-2005, 10:22 AM
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ifetch2?/u1/textindices/L/LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS+2004+18363859001+F

"Mary Catherine PAYTON is daughter of Elizabeth Ann "Liz" WALSTRUM b 1827 d.
1969 in Milford and William Joseph PAYTON. Another mystery. "Liz" also later
married Howarth "Howard" Demmy. I was told that William Joseph PAYTON died and
left "Liz" a widow with 4 children. She later had 2 more with "Howard". One of
these two sides, WALSTRUM or PAYTON were of Blackfoot Indian Descent. She
looked Indian. As I recall as a child she had Long Black Straight Hair. Had those
features of an Indian woman. Mary (grandmom) did too. But stories came that
it was William PAYTON's side that was Blackfoot Indian. So far I havent found
anything more about this story. I do remember at a family reunion, cookout,
that this is true but not enough of the story to "know" for sure who and where
the connections come in. Hopefully someday I will learn the whole story....."
and
"....land description in patent of Forrest Grove, 1755 states it is on the west side of road from Snow Hill to Blackfoot Town(which I know is Dagsboro). The road I assume is roughly today's hwy 113 but the description goes on to say one quarter of a mile above the "forks of the roads." Where would that have been?"
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ifetch2?/u1/textindices/L/LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS+2005+28754900880+F
Most of the colonial properties identified at or near "the head of St.
Martins River" lie basically at the border - on both sides - right on the east side
of the Swamp. "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
10-27-2005, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Bill Childs
Brenda,
From that same source:

"1766. 21. Novr., John FARRILL 400 Ac(res) on the Walnut Bottom fork at the Town Cr(eek) beg(ining) at CHILDS upper line then up on both sides the sd fork."
.......
Bill

Thanks, Bill. Close to a Childs, eh? Well, does this mean I would do well to start scouring court records in Pittsylvania? The first real paper I have on my William is that he was on the Clinch Tithables list of 1772.... I sure would like to have a brief bio. someday of all the men on that list. William is there with Mathias MOUNTS, and the Thompson men who were probably his brother-in-laws. A Joseph Martin is on the list, but I don't know if it was THE Joseph Martin....William was married to Martha "Mattie" Thompson.......Any Thompsons close to the John Farrill land?

Thanks again,
Brenda

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
10-27-2005, 11:23 AM
[i]
http://www.rootsweb.com/~vapittsy/tith.htm
A List of Tithables for Pittsylvania County Taken by John Wilson, Gentl, in Year 1767
And includes the following interesting "Indian" notation:
Moses Ridle (Indian)

William Ridle
[Riddle, I presume....]
John Wynne

John Ferrol

Henry Greens Land
Etc.

[/B]
Quest For Facts,
Did you notice the Wynne/Winn?

I guess Jack Goins work included a lot of information on the Riddles, including Indian Moses Riddle:

"The following excerpts are from Jack Goins book, Melungeons: and Other Pioneer Families, which he has kindly granted me permission to enter here. If you would like additional information or to purchase your own copy of his excellent research, please contact him at: jgoins@usit.net"

"Micajer Bunch was one of those who migrated from the Flat River in Orange County, North Carolina to the New River. He lived in Fincastle County and later owned land in Wilkes County, North Carolina on Elk Creek. Micajer Bunch may have been one of the members of Tory Capt. William Riddle's gang. Micajer went into Lee County, Va. near the same time as the orphan children of William Riddle. Micajer Bunch and William Ingram (Ingraham) were signers of the petition to form Lee County, Va. Ingraham was married to Happy Riddle, widow of William Riddle. Micajer Bunch also appears on a Cumberland County, Ky. tax list in 1799. … Micajer Bunch and William Riddle were at the battle of Point pleasant in 1774, and they were also defendants in a lawsuit with their commanding officer William Herbert."
pp. 78-79
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Melungeons began selling their land on the Flat River in Orange County beginning about 1767 and moved to the back woods section of the New River in Virginia and North Carolina. They moved from the Pamunkey River area of Virginia to the Flat River beginning in about 1747-9. These families included Collins, Gibson, Bunch, Bolen, and possibly Moses Riddle. They were of the Baptist faith, some joined at Stony Creek by letter from another Baptist Church."

http://www.fialcowitz.com/Bunch/other9.html

Also the Riddle Family Newsletter has published some good stuff on this family which is informative of the migration routes taken by them and possibly other associated neeighbors/family:

"The first record which appears to definitely be this William Riddle is the 1767 tax list, Tithables of Pittsylvania County, 17676 of persons residing in the newly formed Pittsylvania County, Virginia. He is listed as "William Ridle" and next to him on the list is "Moses Ridle (Indian)."

As far as can be determined, Moses Ridle was the father of William Riddle and was of Scotch-Irish, Indian and Portuguese (Melungeon) ancestry.7"


http://www.jimcal.com/v04is01.htm
Brenda

techteach
10-27-2005, 01:31 PM
I just wanted to add to Brenda's posting of the Blackfoot Rez - the names in that posting are all surnames of mine - Horner (Queenstown, MD)was my ggg-something grandmother, Green (Port Tobacco, MD) was my ggg-something grandfather, and the Willisons marry into the Green line extensively, moving to WVA and Ohio with the Greens. The only thing is that the Blackfoot ID in my family comes from McLane while in Deb's line comes from McLellend.

Techteach

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
10-27-2005, 02:17 PM
Did you notice the Dorsey link in that Blackfoot Rez post? Wonder if there is a connection to Dorseyville, PA?

Brenda

techteach
10-27-2005, 03:42 PM
Brenda:
I looked up the location of Dorseyville. It is very near where my Blackfoot ggggrandmother was from. And your folks were near there too.

Techteach

quest for facts
10-27-2005, 06:27 PM
Sure did Brenda :)

Linda
10-27-2005, 09:24 PM
This is great stuff!

techteach
10-30-2005, 07:43 PM
Brenda (and others):
Thought I would post this link : http://www.mitsawoket.com/Indiana%20Ties.htm
On this page, it discusses a family names Prettyman. I traced that family from Dagsboro (Blackfoot Town) to the Blackfoot Cemetery area in Indiana. Here, it identifies that name and connection as being Indian. And on the same page is a family with the Blackfoot ID.

Techteach

collins
11-10-2005, 06:14 AM
http://www.royalprovincial.com/military/rhist/dian/dianretn2.htm

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
11-10-2005, 07:50 AM
Wonder if this Mr. Steel is one of the the Indian traders listed in "INDIAN TRADERS–1743-1775", PA archives, posted at usgenweb and elsewhere?

1770, 4 Dec Andreas Steel
1773, Jan 4 William Steel
1764, June 2 Adam Stoll

******
Indian Department
List of Men
http://www.royalprovincial.com/military/rhist/dian/dianretn2.htm
Great Britain, Public Record Office, War Office, Class 28, Volume 10, folios 427-428.

"Mr. STEEL Born in Ireland Aged 36. Merchant in Tryon County several Years. "

"GREEN Born in Pensylvania Aged 22. do"

etc.

Brenda

Bill Childs
11-10-2005, 12:50 PM
Brenda Sampsel,
Regarding your question about THOMPSONs living near FARRILLs per the Land Entry Record Book referred to earlier.
I can't determine the location of many of these branches and creeks referenced but there were Thompsons in the general area. I need to find an actual hardcopy map of the area as near to that time frame as possible.

The earliest Thompson entry:
"Sep.t 11 1745 Jn.o Thompson 100 ac.rs on the s.th Side Roanoke Riv.r begin: at the Mouth of Buffaloe C.r thence down the riv.r and up the Cr."

The next earliest, and last Thompson:
"1756. 27.Decmr. James Thompson 400 Ac Adj.g the Lines of the Last above Entry when run on the So. Side."

The "Last above Entry" was located
"on the Brs. of Elkhorn & Sandy Crs. Beg. at Woodsons Line th.e Each way and off."

Note: The father of THE Joseph Martin was also a Joseph, so it may have been either of them. Joseph Martin Sr's wife was a Chiles/Childs.
From same Entry Record Book;
"1766. 28. Mar. Joseph MARTIN Enters 3 small Islands in Stanton Rr. Oposite the plantation whereon Isham DALTON now lives."
Bill

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
11-10-2005, 03:34 PM
Thank you, Bill, for the Thompson information. When things slow down I will try to get back to that 1772 Clinch Tithables list...guessing that many of them may have come from the same area.

Do you think there were still Saponi in the area when Joseph Martin 1. was living there? I knew about the Chiles/Childs connecton, but do not know the Childs line she belonged to-- By the way, did you know there was a Childs/Chiles and Mounts connection early on in Cecil County Maryland? I need to dig the will out- I think a daughter of Christoher Mounts/Mounce trader/interpreter married a Childs. I've been digging some in Washington Co., PA and will get a reply back to you on your Mounts letter in a bit.
Brenda

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
11-10-2005, 03:50 PM
Actually, it was a grandaughter...I will post the connection under a new Mounts thread....

collins
11-11-2005, 02:04 AM
This link talks about the Johnson and Massie/Massey connections.


http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~lksstarr/reports/aplace.txt




Early Johnson Information:

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~lksstarr/reports/JohnsonDatabase1.html

Combs Organization for Family Research:
http://www.combs-families.org/combs/index.html


Debby Briggs Site:
http://www.geocities.com/debabriggs/johnson

Francis Smith site:
http://www.fmsmith.com/washjoh.html



Rebecca Farris b. 1787 Lincoln Co., VA was the daughter of Dickman/Dickerman Thompson and Susannah Daugherty. They married in 1797 Franklin Co., VA.


These are my direct lines:
James Johnson b. circa. 1785 VA

married March 8, 1803 Pulaski County, KY to

Rebecca Farris b. 1787 Lincoln County, VA
They had:
Peter
Francis Asbury
Halcom(Malcom)
Robert
Green
George Washington
Jane
Martha P.
Wesley
Wiley
Barney

George Washington Johnson b. 1810 Pulaski Co., KY
married September 29,1828 Wayne Co., KY to
Nancy Elizabeth Thompson b. 1812 Pulaski Co., KY

they had:
William
Sarah
James Granville
Nimrod
Jane
Jemima
Mavina
Naomi
Margaret Peggy
Elizabeth Olivia
John
Temperance Tempa
Mildred Rutha
Nancy

James Granville Johnson b. October 1834 Wayne Co., KY
married May 26, 1856 Pulaski Co., KY to
Mahala Stodgill b. December 1838 Wayne Co., KY

they had:
John William
George Washington
Nancy Margaret
Andrew C.
James T.
Malinda Bell
Charles S.
Granville C.
Sirene
Ruth Armilda

Ruth Armilda Johnson b. December 20, 1881 Douglas Co., MO
married November 26, 1898 Douglas Co., MO to
John Jefferson Collins b. November 11, 1870 Howell Co., MO

They had:
Leonard G.
Ruby
Collis
Grace D.
Mae
Homer


Collis Collins b. Feb. 6, 1905 Willow Springs Howell Co., MO
married May 14, 1925 Tarrant Co., TX to
Lorena Pearl Rothgeb b. Sept. 6, 1908 Fredonia Wilson Co., KS

they had:
Jewel
Howard
Louise
Harold
Ruth
Thelma
Wiley Joe
Charlie Ray
Leon Preston

Leon Preston Collins b. May 7, 1943 Fort Worth Tarrant Co., TX
married December 28, 1967 Granbury Hood Co., TX
Margaret Irene Millican b. Feb. 14, 1945 Houston Harrison Co., TX

they had:
Debby Lynn
Patsy
Scott Preston b. Jan. 24, 1972 Richardson Dallas Co., TX

collins
11-11-2005, 02:31 AM
If you look at the above links and the information contained in them you will see a connection to the Nansemond County Collins lines which I posted links for in the Collins thread.

Vivian Markley
11-14-2005, 08:45 PM
Dan and anyone else interested in Sizemore. I will post two sites that are definitely reliable on Sizemore. First is the DNA test results the have proven what Sizemore is definitely Native American. Look at the Haplo group, first column and Q is Native American. This has resulted in a lot of reworked families and corrects a lot of bad genealogy. http://www.genpage.com/DNAindex.html

The second is Ron Blevins work. I have worked with him on the Blevins as his Wells son of James Blevins and Lydia Sizemore and my grandfather Nathan are brothers. He is exacting beyond the point of perfection. He promised to publish his Blevins research that I know is more than 1000 pages but he is still researching! As you will see by this paper, Sizemore, Legend or Fact. He even has researched the over 2000 applications on Dawes that were turned down and now the Sizemore DNA proves that they were Indian although very unlikely Cherokee except the ones that married Cherokee. Nice thing is that he has a search engine on it. He has unbelievable documentaion that is beyone doubt.
Example:
1748 Sunlight on the Southside Lunenburg Co, VA 1748-1783 p.276 by Landon Bell, pp.64-66) Lunenburg Co, VA Tithables For 1748 List taken by Cornelius Cargill..(last 7 names on list each with 1 tithe) William Sizemore, Thos. Franklin, Ephraim Sizemore, Henry Sizemore, James Sizemore, Edward Sizemore, Reps. Orzbond (16) Lunenburg Co, VA Entry Record Book, page 86 - 7 Apr. 1748 - Edward Sizemore 400A on Little Buffalo Cr. Beginning where the Path crosses thence up both sides this Grassy Creek path (6) Lunenburg Co, VA Wills 1746-1845, by Bell, recorded in Deed Book 1, p.477-478 Will of Henry Green, dated 15 Oct. 1748: "mentions wife Elizabeth Green, Sons: John Green, Henry Green, Stephen Green, Frederick Green, Richard Green, and daughter Dorcas Green; sister-in-law Abigail Green wife of brother John Green. Executors: brother-in-law Richard Griffin, and son John Green. Witnesses: Edward Sizemore (his mark), William Jackson (his mark), Thos. Gristwood. (6)

He only deals with his personal family George of Ashe Co but documents the family's ancestors.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~craingen/SIZEMORE1.html

His paper was published on this website that looks like it may have a lot of info.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~craingen/

If people were as intolerant of "Indians" in Virginia as we are led to believe, I have to think that was reason enough for these folks stay together in groups and were forced to keep moving west.

Bill Childs
11-14-2005, 10:38 PM
Collins,
In the URL cited in your post of 11-10-2005 of 10:14 AM, wouldn't the "last war under Sir William Johnson" have been the "French and Indian War"? That narrows the age ranges of those people's ages, to the time period of 1754 to 1763.
Bill

Vivian,
If this is the same SIZEMORE line in 1740's Lunenburg Co., Va., whose desendants these many years since, identify as Cherokee, it is little wonder that their Cherokee applications were rejected.
Bill

collins
11-15-2005, 12:00 AM
Bill, I'm not sure what the question is can you elaborate a bit more? Thanks

Linda
11-15-2005, 12:26 AM
There's a Little Buffalo Creek in Mecklenburg, which would be near where the Path crossed. Was Mecklenburg cut out of Lunenberg? If so, our Greens down here should find this very interesting.

Vivian Markley
11-15-2005, 01:29 AM
I dont' understand your comment. Are you saying because they could trace their lineage to Lunenburg that they could not be Indian. The called themselves the Whitetop Laurel Band of Cherokee, and knew they were of mixed heritage, including the belief that they had intermarried with many from different tribes but "Cherokee" was all that anyone in these area were called. Mostly by others.

I live in Ohio and went to Ashe Co NC to do some genealogy research and when I went into the library and asked where the genealogy dept was she asked me what name I was researching. I am a green eyed, blonde and told her Blevins and she just said. Over there. You know you are Indian. Not sure if that was good or bad but did not ask for any more help!

As for the length of time being an issue, is that not what everyone here is trying to do. I know any full blood relative in my line is going to be way back in Virginia, North Carolina or maybe even in New England. The Eastern Cherokee had chiefs in the 1800 that were mixed. Blood quantum is the easiest form of genocide that anyone ever invented.

collins
11-15-2005, 02:53 AM
Hi Vivian, I think what Bill is refering to in regards to Sizemores in Lunenburg is that the Eastern Cherokee have a huge file on the Sizemores via Edward Ned Sizemore. They always reject their applications based on this past rejection and the Cherokee admit that the Sizemores are Indian but they just don't recognize that they belong to the Cherokee. The Sizemores most likely do have Cherokee blood, but if I'm not mistaken many researchers believe them to be from a Southeastern Siouan tribe. I have Sizemore family lines distantly related by marriages.

On the other question raised I am unsure what is being refered to. I posted some links to Johnson information and previously posted a link to British records, of which, some refered to Sir William Johnson and the French and Indian War. There is other Johnson/Johnston information on that site plus other family surnames that people on this board may be looking for, so I am unsure as to what explanation is being requested. If I have given an impression by posting links that they all pertain to my lines I appoligize for the misunderstanding and perhaps should have added a note or two with each link. I will try to do that in the future. I am seeing alot of new information about the Johnson and Collins lines that I haven't seen before and that needs working out, but I also keep my eye out for other surnames that people on this board my be looking for.

This link is to Sizemore Information. Just information I have come across. This link also has some other links you may find interesting on the Sizemore Indian question.

http://www.globalgraffiti.com/family/sizemore/native.htm

Bill Childs
11-16-2005, 09:01 AM
Collins,
I was responding to your earlier post containing that statement.

Vivian,
If you re-read my earlier reply, you'll see that I did not say they were not Indian. I said they are unlikely to be Cherokee, because Lunenburg is way outside any area inwhich the Cherokee lived. The people living at White Top appear to have came out of Ashe/Surry Counties, NC. They were moving back and forth from White Top to Greasy Rock (Hancock Co) Tennessee (about 20 miles) on a regular basis (re: Richard Carlson's dissertation).

This group may have contained some Cherokee because the Greasy Rock and White Top communities were in an area claimed by the Cherokee as a "Hunting Reserve" set aside for them prior to 1790, in an earlier treaty, but the U.S. gov't disputed it.

Descendants of these groups were not recognized by the Cherokee, altho we know they were Native. An explanation that I find compelling is that any Cherokee at Greasy Rock and White Top were men who married into the group, hence they belonged to their wife's clan (matrilineal culture), which in this case were not Cherokee, so their descendants weren't recognized as Cherokee.
Bill

collins
11-16-2005, 09:29 AM
Bill I have no clue what your refering to.

Vivian Markley
11-16-2005, 10:21 PM
Bill and all,
I understand what you are say but I just the process brings up so many questions for me. William H Blevins organized his whole family of over 2000 people with the purpose of going to Oklahoma. In his application he makes this statement.

"The word 'Chief' in my application, means that I am chief of the White Top Band of Cherokee Indians, an organization of the principal Cherokee Indians living about White Top, and was perfected about ten years ago. We organized so as to demand our rights in a body. We thought we had not been getting them before. In 1896, we wanted to go to the Indian Territory, and organized for that purpose. When the band was first organized there were about 2175, I believe. They were all Sizemore descendants. No one else was allowed to become a member if it was known. I have read the Decree of the Supreme Court of the United States referred to in my application, and have it at home. My father, Armstrong Blevins, I do not think was a party to the treaty of 1836 and 1846. I am putting my own interpretation on the decree." William H was born in 1840 in Ashe Co. so at best his knowledge of the treaties and the removal was more from talk that he heard on the front porch as a kid.

Somehow he is firm in his belief that his family were Indian and chose to use the word "Cherokee". His statment that he does not think his father was party to the Treaties seems a little ambiqious to me. I wonder did he think his father was actively involved enough in Cherokee lifestyle but not high enough to be involved in the treaties of 1836 and 1846.

I have to wonder what it was that made them now want to go out west under the auspices of being subject to the government as an Indian when he was never listed as such in the census. The Oklahoma Land Rush would have given them the same opportunity and it is exactly the same time period if what they wanted to do was to relocate.

Bill Childs
11-17-2005, 12:42 AM
Vivian,
That they identified themselves as Indian and Cherokee is good enough for me. My 'problem', genealogically speaking, is that many of their ancestors can be traced back into areas of NC and Virginia that are and were Eastern Siouan, not Cherokee.
Bill

Vivian Markley
11-17-2005, 09:28 AM
I have done genealogy for a hobby now for over 35 years and I would like to get each line back to the boat or at least prove they met the boat. When I first started Mom had a cousin that also liked to do genealogy. All she wanted to do was to prove "what type of Indian her mother's grandmother was for her mother." Her mom lived to be 96 and we still did not get that done. When she told my Mom that, Mom said we didn't have any Indian blood. Ruth said, didn't they call you a "little half breed" when you were young. Mom said, "Yeh, but I did't know they were serious." Ruth thought it was the Cottrell line and they do have their stories but I also have big brick walls. My Cottrell married a Blevins whose mother was a Vaughn and they all came out of this conglamoration of people with the longhunters.

I know when I first started I just wanted to know how my quiet little grandmother, (discovered lots of Quaker roots) took up with my Hell raising grandfather. Farming just did not seem to be in their genes. Grandpa raised and raced dogs and that was probably the most respectful thing he did. He was anti government and anti religious although he claimed " If God had been smarter, he would have found a way to make alll the damn leaves stay on the trees." He did believe in a creator and I took care of him when he was dieing and he did believe in an existence beyond this one. They kept seperate from others and protected us fiercely. When Grandma died, the kids wanted to put her full name, Sarah Genella on the marker and he insisted on "Nellie". She lived by Nellie and she'll die by Nellie. On his mother's death certificate, her name is Mrs William Cotrell. Why? I have never seen another death certificate like it. He put down her father's name, James Sebring and her mother, Rachel Blevins but did not put her name. Charlotta Jane or "Jennie" as she was called.

Along the lines of being different, I wonder about the Longhunters. Why did they not farm? Were their father's farmers. We are taught that by this time the Woodland Indians were no longer normadic or relied on hunting but were agrarian. They seemed different from traders. My first husband was a farmer and we tried it for a while. It is a hard life at best, even with plenty of good land. I find it hard to visualize that "farmers" were content to stay in the mountains for hundreds of years, when there was plenty of furtile flat land that was free. The Quakers kept moving out to the better farmlands.

Looks like we are getting our first snow for the year. It has been in the seventies, so this will definitely be known as the year of strange weather. It is big fluffy white flake so I will most likley be lazy all day and have to make some cookies with my grandson.
The rest of day, I think I will look back over the Russell Co Va tax lists. Nathan on is the 1788-89 lists. His oldest known child with Rachel Skaggs dau of Charles was born at that time.

Bill Childs
11-17-2005, 10:59 AM
Vivian,
Charles Skaggs and many of Elisha Wallen Senior's probably associated Long Hunters - Haraldson, Blevins, Roberts, Rogers, Baker, Baldwin, Cox, etc, are living in close proximity to one another on the 1767 Pittsylvania Co., Va tax lists of Peter Copland and Richard Chandler:

http://www.census-online.com/links/VA/Pittsylvania/

Later, many of these same people are found on the 1782 Montgomery Co., Va Personal Property Tax Lists, also at that census-online site.
Bill

collins
11-18-2005, 05:40 PM
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0858253.html

Dan Akin
11-21-2005, 02:27 PM
Thank all of you for your replies and discussions. I want to first comment on Charles' post of 9/9/05. "Jenny, Capt. Pearce's daughter, aged as we suppose about sixty." Capt. William Pierce was commissioned by the governor of Va. in 1623 to be in charge of all of the defenses of the Virginia Colony. This was after the 1622 Powhatan uprising. When Pocahontas/Matoaka died in England, John Rolphe returned to Virgina and married Jane Pierce, the Capt's daughter. The Jenny mentioned above is said to be a Wyanoke. The Wyanokes were found living just below the mouth of the Appomattox River on the opposite north side of the James River. They later removed to the present Prince George Co. area and then moved down the Nottoway River where they were found joining the Nottoway Tribe on the upper Nottoway and where we find Wyanoke Creek today.
This woman could very well be the product of an Indian side-wife of Capt. William Pierce and the half sister of John Rolphe's 2nd wife and the step-aunt of Thomas Rolphe and the great step/aunt of Jane Rolphe who was the wife of Robert Bolling.
I think I got all of that right. Are you reading Crystal?
Dan.

Dan Akin
11-22-2005, 04:10 PM
Cousin Bill; Thank you so much for the Green info.
I want to relate where I am on this, but I will keep it brief and maybe add more later.
As you know RICHARD and BENJAMIN GREEN appear in Henry Co. Ky. by 1800. They have been found by family genealogists to have moved from the Clinch River on the present Hawkins/Hancock county line with my BENJAMIN living on present Mill Creek just southwest of Kyle's Ford and RICHARD living on Blackwater Creek, north side of the Clinch, just a few miles from Ben Green. They were on the Clinch by at least 1784 and were neighbors to the "Melungeons."
RICHARD GREEN was found living before that in the 1770's in the Elk Creek settlement on the New River and had been accused of Tory activities as was William Riddle (Melungeon).
Before that we have; RICHARD GREEN, 1745, 200 acres on both sides of the Sandy River, beginning at the lower end of Bear Garden and HENRY GREEN, 1743, 400 acres on the north side of Dan River... 400 acres on Sandy Creek at the Upper Buffalo Lick.
The Sandy River is where some "Melungeon" families, including the Riddles, had moved by 1767.
The Sandy River and Creek both empty into the Dan River at present Danville Va. and are very close together. This was near to Wm. Byrd's "Eden" property and William Wynne lived there.
From there we go Great Buffalo Creek 1740's to 1770's where we find the Green/Sizemore settlements and the family of HENRY GREEN with the son of William Wynne, John Wynne/Winn, living at the mouth of Gr. Buffalo Ck. on the Roanoke just across from Wm. Byrd's "Blue Castle" property.
From there we go to the Nottoway River with; HENRY GREEN, 1728, 200acres on the north side of Nottoway River and RICHARD GREEN, 1739, 854 acres btween Nottoway River and Birchin Swamp. This Birchin Swamp empties into Tommahitton Swamp just before it empties into the Nottoway Riv. Tommahitton of course, being translated to mean "Cherokee."
There is also; LEWIS GREEN 2nd, 1705, 97 acres, ...on the south side of Jones Hole Swamp (off the Nottoway River) ...to a hickory being the corner of Mr. Thomas Wynne...
Around 1700 the Wynnes were living on Moccusseneck Creek off of the Nottoway River.
Abraham Wood's step-daughter Margaret married Maj. Peter Jones' daughter, Mary Francis Jones, married Maj. Joshua Wynne, interpretor to the Nottoways. William Wynne of Danville was Maj. Joshua Wynne's son.
Capt. Peter Jones was an Indian trader at Wood's Fort and he mentioned in his will in 1721 "I give an bequeath to my son Thomas Jones my Plantation upon the Great Creek, so-called, on Nottoway River...I bequeath to my son John Jones...joining on the land of INDIAN WILL's down the Creek..."
Peter Jones was in Wm. Byrd's surveying party in 1728-33 when they mapped the dividing line between Va. and N.C.
So perhaps genealogists and researchers may find a connection to the Green's Native past at the Nottoway River. We shall see.
Dan.

Bill Childs
11-22-2005, 09:46 PM
Thanks, Dan.
In which language does "Tommahitton" translate as Cherokee?
Bill

Dan Akin
11-23-2005, 06:43 AM
Bill; Perhaps I was wrong in saying that it was an interpretation. Of course, you know that either the Totero or Appomatoc guides of the 1673 Needham and Arthur expedition named the people, that where to be known later as "Cherokee," Tomohitans or Tommehetons. It is most likely the Totero guide because I believe the Algonquins referred to them as Rickohocken.
The interpretation could well have been "Far Water People" or some such thing. I believe it is said that the Moheton name was interpreted to have something to do with water.
Dan.

Bill Childs
11-23-2005, 08:40 AM
Thanks for the reminder, Dan. Had known but forgot it.
Bill

barryc
12-21-2005, 12:58 AM
I am a Green from Greentown in Brunswick County VA. Greentown is an Indian community on still on the Saponi Reservation land. There are also Greens in the Haliwa-Saponi tribe. There is also a Greentown in Nash Co NC. I have also seen quite a few Greens in the Hawkeye community in the Southern part of NC as well as the Lumbee area.

Green seems to be a pretty common Indian name in VA and NC.

Barry

rodtree20744
12-21-2005, 10:20 PM
Hey Barry, are you related to the Greens that are members of the Haliwa- Saponi?? That would be my grandmother's side of the house.

Rod Northern

barryc
12-22-2005, 02:14 AM
We do have some Haliwa Saponi Indians who have married Fort Christanna Saponi Indians in Greentown. We have a couple of Haliwa-Saponi who have houses in Greentown now. Warren County NC, where the Haliwa are from, neighbors Brunswick Co VA. We grew up shopping in Roanoke Rapids and so did the Haliwa.

One of my Haliwa cousins Beverly lives in Maryland. Maybe you could connect with her there

Barry

rodtree20744
12-22-2005, 08:54 PM
I would love to talk with your cousin about a Green connection. My great Uncle is named Marcellous Green, he lives in Holister. His father was John Allen Green. I also a ties to the Richardsons and Lynchs of the same area. If you want to off line with this my e-mail address is rodtree20744@yahoo.com.

Rod

barryc
12-23-2005, 12:40 AM
Yes, Rod we can take this off line. I will email you. Thanks

Barry, barryc@winwinworld.net 252-521-1821

Dan Akin
12-23-2005, 09:59 AM
Wow! I started this thread back in Dec. 2002. Three years ago? Geez! I realize that most of this should have been posted in different catagories, so I am now thanking the moderators for their tolerance.
Realizing that the first Euro settlements were along the James River in the early 1600's, later stages of this were along the Appomattox in the late 1600's and north of the Nottoway in the late 1600's early 1700's. The Nottoway and Meherrin Rivers were the edge of the western frontier. This was Indian villages, trading houses, frontier forts, Indian traders, Interpretors, Longhunters, and Woodsmen's cabins. It seems there are very few general histories written about this area and time period. Why???
Henry Green of Great Buffalo Creek (present Mecklinburg Co. Va.) came from old Surry Co. Va. and I believe it is he who lived on Birchin Swamp and the Henry Green from whom Joseph Westmorland had puchased land. Joseph Westmorland was supposed to be the husband of Isabella Hicks who was the daughter of Capt. Robert Hicks. Capt. Hicks was, of course, in charge of the garrison at Ft. Christianna. Out of a little confusion concerning two Robert Hicks of that era and area we have the Indian trader Nathanial Hicks making his way out of southside Va. to S.C. and then to Ga. where he marries the daughter of Chief Broom of the Cherokees. This union would seem to produce two early 1800's Priciple Chiefs of the Cherokee Nation, William and Charles Renatus Hicks.
This Henry Green line is said to have married into the Wall family with a daughter of Henry Green marrying Byrd Wall which, I believe, is the son of Joseph Wall. Joseph Wall, it appears, is mentioned in the 1747 Joseph Westmorland patent of his purchase from Henry Green. Is this Joseph Wall related to John Wall who was hired to remove and transport Indians to Fort Christianna?
Richard Green, the supposed brother of Henry Green, in 1769 sold 200 acres on the south side of the Nottoway River to Abraham Smith. This is supposed to be the brother of Richard Smith Jr. This Richard Smith is supposed to have been a "trader to the Cherikees."
From the "Westover Journals" of Wm. Byrd; On mar. 5th, 1728, Byrd had 17 men meet him at Coratuck. "Accordingly, seventeen able hands were listed on the part of Virginia, who were most of them Indian traders and expert woodsmen. These men were ordered to come armed with a musket and a tomahawk..."
Names of the Men Employed on the Part of of Virginia to Run the Line Between That Colony and North Carolina; Peter Jones, Thomas Jones, Thomas Short, Robert Hix, John Evans, John Ellis, John Ellis Jr., Thomas Wilson, George Tilman, Charles Kimbal, Beorge Hamilton, Robert Allen, Thomas Jones Jr., James Petillo, Richard Smith, and John Rice.
Dan.

quest for facts
12-23-2005, 07:17 PM
My many greats grandfather was Richard Smith who also lived in that area he had a son named Richard Smith Jr. I think you are probably referring to our Richard Smith Jr. in your post. He moved into Northampton County , NC before he died. If this is the same Richard Smith it is likely he had native blood. My ancestor Elizabeth Smith was his half sister (they had different mothers). Elizabeth's children and grandchildren were called ito court in Bertie County to prove they were white. What this probably means is that someone called their parentage into question. Elizabeth married first Thomas Sessums who we are unsure who his mother was....then she married a Boon in Bertie County, NC. Elizabeth mother was the widow of George Blow we don't know her surname. The Blows were benefactors to the Nottoway and to this day they still live near the Nottoway in Hertford County, NC. The Blows are considered mixed white and Nottoway. There are Blow family stories that state the children ran the fields and woods with Nottoway indians as early as 1660's. The Nottoway came into contact with these white families as early as 1650. This would make a good case for that Richard Smith being our Richard Smith cause he lived among the Nottoway and probably learned how to be a good woodsman. Did you say he was a trader to the Cherokee? Now I find that interesting indeed. That also makes sense since the Cherokee were not "white" friendly so a mixed blood trader would be more to their liking I would think. And being Nottoway he would have been a Cherokee cousin of sorts. George Blow married Margaret in 1653 and when he died she married Richard Smith Sr. Everyone believes Margaret was a Nottoway(full blood). Richard Smith Sr. is believed to have been a white man. I think this is probably our Richard Smith Jr.
Linda

Dan Akin
12-24-2005, 10:19 AM
I want to correct a couple of things in my earlier post. It was Henry Green's grand-nephew, Wm. Vaughan, that is supposed to have married Eliz. Wall, sister of Byrd Wall. It was Richard Green on Birchin Creek/Swamp with Henry Green described as just "north of the Nottoway River."
My point was to show the interconnection of the Nottoway River families and their connections to the extensive Indian trade of that day. I think there is a story to be revealed there.
This story begins with Abraham Wood and the establishment of Fort Henry in 1645 and with those first trading families that moved on to the Nottoway, Meherrin, and Chowan Rivers and with Thomas Stegg, the uncle of Wm. Byrd, who had established trade with the Indians at the Falls of the James River. Inheriting his uncle's business, Wm. Byrd, would lead the way for the settlement of the upper Roanoke River and it's tributaries. That's how I see it.
William Vaughan was a neighbor and relation of Henry and John Green of Great Buffalo Creek in present Mecklinburg Co. Va. His father was believed to be John Vaughan who is said to be the son of William Vaughan Sr. "Patent Granted to Wm. and Richard Vaughan Oct. 15, 1698, 280 acres Charles City Co. Va. west side of Muncusneck Main Swamp, a corner tree belonging to the land of William Low, a corner black oak standing on Hatchers Run...although this was additional adjoining land and not the exact same tract that Wm. Vaughan Sr, was granted in 1680. The later patents place the Vaughan land on Hatchers Run." Rohoic Swamp, Hatchers Run, and Moncuseneck Creek are just southwest of present Petersburg Va. and the lands of Abraham Woods and Maj. Peter Jones. Maj. Jones had a son, Peter Jones, who had a son, Peter Jones III, that established an Indian trading house at present Petersburg Va. Maj. Peter Jones was the son-in-law of Abraham Wood and his granddaughter, Mary, through his son Peter, married Maj. Joshua Wynne. From what I've read, it appears that Maj. Peter Jones' wife Margaret Wood married #1 Peter Jones, #2 John Banister (anthropologist, recorded the customs of the Indians) and #3 Stephen Cocke. This Stephen and Margaret Jones Cocke are said to have had a daughter Agnes that married a RICHARD SMITH. Is this true? Abraham Wood, in his will, referred to his Dinwiddie lands as Ronhorak, which he devised to his daughter, Mary Chamberlayne. His eldest grandson, Abraham Jones 1st, acquired Mary Wood Chamberlayne's land. In addition, he confirmed his title by securing a patent for 1217 acres called The Indian Town Lands near one of the branches of Rohowick, in 1683 adjoining Gen. Woods Fort Lands. Abraham Wood Jones died about 1690 and his son Peter Jones II, of Henrico, inherited them. He sold the northern part of his Rohoic lands soon after reaching majority to RICHARD SMITH in 1719. This 200 acre tract was inherited by Edward Smith, son of RICHARD SMITH.
In 1740 an Indian trader from Amelia Co. Va. named Vaughan was in a packtrain to the Cherokee village of Tuckaleechee (present Townsend Tn) on the Little River which is now one of the western gates of the Smokey Mountain National Park. It is said he traveled there until the French and Indian War of 1754.
Dan.

Dan Akin
12-24-2005, 11:04 AM
Of course, this has probably already been posted elsewhere on this forum. It seems that South Carolina Indian Traders were having trouble with traders from Virginia circling around them and not being licensed by South Carolina.
From: The Colonial Records of South Carolina, Journal of the Cimmissioners of the Indian Trade
Mar. 22nd 1710/11, Sundry Indian Traders to take out licenses; ...
Natha. Evans of Virginia, his bond.
Richd. Smith and Geo. Smith of Virginia, their bond
David Crawly, John Evans, and Richard Jones of Virginia, their bond.
Wm. Pettypoole, Thomas Edwards, and Henry Tally of Virginia, their bond.

Dan.

Dan Akin
12-24-2005, 12:51 PM
From the webpage of George Baumbach at http://www.mindspring.com/~baumbach/ppoole/ppoole3.htm we see that Wm. Pettypoole perhaps married Ann Smith which is probably the daughter or sister of Richard Smith. On the before mentioned list of Virginia traders, is this John Evans the father of Winifred Evans the wife of Capt. Robert Hicks?
In the info. on Mr. Baumbach's page there are references to deeds that place these traders in the same community in the Moccoseneck Creek area in the 1680's to 1720's. Other neighbors ca. 1722 (as per the map on the Poythress family webpage, Survey of Prince George County by Robert Bolling) are William, Robert, and Thomas Poythress, Capt. Peter, Sloman, and Peter Wynne and William, Peter and Thomas Jones.
Of interest to me is the grandson of Wm. Pettypoole named William Massey/Mercy. In the early 1780's my Green family had migrated to northeast Tenn. Adam Green, Richard Green, Isaac Green and my 5th greatgrandfather Benjamin Green had signed the petition to form Hawkins County from Sullivan. In the 1790's a William Massey and Adam Green were killed by Chief Robert Benge at Powell's Gap. After searching records for the Library of Congress, I came to the conclusion that they were the companions of a man named Cockrell/Cottrell and were the ones mentioned in Cockrells epic escape from Chief Benge. The dates matched. It is related by some that the Masseys had removed to N.C. and had been Indian traders.
Dan.

quest for facts
12-24-2005, 01:48 PM
ok Dan you keep talking about my family. I decsend from this branch of Wynnes and Poythrees. Joshua Wynne had a brother named Thomas who married Agnes Stith. This is my direct branch. Thomas was an interpreter for the Nottoway and Meherrin. The Throwers and Malones were there also along the Sapponey Creek in Dinwiddle County. The Nottoway were also up in this area and further east and south in Southampton and Brunswick Counties. There are Wynnes today that are registered with the Mattaponi Indians of Virginia. Pocahantas was a Mattaponi. At any rate I have had contact with Buck Woodard of the Virginia Council of Indians through a fellow Nottoway. This fellow Nottoway has spoken to him of my lineage and he basically told me to contact the Mattaponi. They seem to think I decsend from several tribes that lived in Virginia at first contact with Europeans. The beautiful thing is I was born overlooking the James River in Newport News Virginia my immediate and many of my cousins and their families moved back and forth across the Virginia and North Carolina borders my whole childhood. My family is in that entire region....Newport News, VA, Chester, VA, Roanoke Rapids, NC, Enfield, NC, Cary,NC, Tarboro, NC, Macclesfield, NC, Nottoway County, VA, Chesapeake, VA, Smithfield, VA. With the largest concentration of them in Halifax County, NC, Edgecombe County, NC and the city of Newport News, VA. I know Hwy 13 between Edgecombe County and Newport News like the back of my hand I ahve traveled it so many times. That is my home. The home of my ancestors we have been there for over a thousand years.
Linda

saj
12-24-2005, 03:33 PM
Dan and Linda,
This is so Interesting!! I suspect that the Robert Allen on that list of 17 is in my line of Allen but may never prove it. Robert Jr. was in Lunenburg, then Brunswick and died in Caswell co NC. One of Robert Hicks daughters Elizabeth married thomas Lanier..daughter Catherine Lanier married David Allen and they were in Person co NC. Sylvanus Stokes I mentioned before that witnessed a deed within the Southampton deeds was married to Celia Walker, her sister was married to a Massey...there are too many Robert Allens to be sure I'm afraid. But there are enough other connections already and probably more to find. Sue J

quest for facts
12-25-2005, 03:37 AM
Dan,
You are indeed talking about our Richard Smith Jr. He had something to do with the building of Fort Christanna. He married Elizabeth Drue but they had a son also named Richard Smith and we have no idea who he married so he may well ahve married your Agnes Cocke we just are not sure. Richard Smith Jr. also had a son named Henry Arthur Smith. Hence Arthur Smith. Arthur Smith married Anne Ruffin daughter of William Ruffin and Faith Gray. I also decsend from Wiliam and Faith Ruffin through their son Nathaniel. Nathaniel married Cealy Braswell. Richard Smith Sr had daughter Elizabeth she is my direct ancestor. While her brother was building Fort Christana she and her husband were starting a general store and ferry service in what is now Hertford County, NC. They were all frontier people. This is were her parentage was called into question and were we married the Boon's and the Sizemores and another line of the Wynn family and the Bush and the Hill family. Elizabeth grandson Culmer Sessums headed out of there soon after all the questions started flying. He headed into Edgecombe County were he stayed and were we merged with the Moore family who had earlier married into the Branch family of Southampton County. It is there we all merged together the Branch, Moore, Sessums and Etheridge..some Wynne joined us there too. Along with the Braswell, Ruffin, Norfleet, Walton and the Taylor. Merry Christmas, Dan
Linda

quest for facts
12-28-2005, 01:17 PM
I have some early paintings of Smith's. In fact I have a painting of two of Arthur Smiths children...these folks were born in the 1770's and 1780's if anyone would like to see them. Please send me instructions on how to do it and I'd be glad to share. These are the grandchildren of Richard Smith Jr.
Linda

Dan Akin
12-31-2005, 10:05 AM
I am looking for a "Licking Place Branch" located in present Dinwiddie County Va. north of the Nottoway River.
John Hightower and John Jr. recieved land patents in old Prince George Co. Va. north of the Nottoway River in 1752. Their neighbors were Gabriel Harrison, Thomas Hardaway, Israel Robertson, Richard, Joseph, and Daniel Walls, Joseph and Thomas Westmorland, and HENRY GREEN. It appears that John Hightower was the brother-in-law of Abraham Smith. John and Ann Smith Hightower resided in Lunenburg Co. Va. in 1769 when they sold 40 acres on Tommahetton Creek to Joshua Hightower.
This might place "Licking Place Branch" very close to Birchin and Tommahetton Creeks.
Dan.

Linda
01-01-2006, 10:24 PM
If you would send a scanned image of the painting to me, I'll size it and publish it here. sissipaha@saponitown.com

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Dan Akin
I am looking for a "Licking Place Branch" located in present Dinwiddie County Va. north of the Nottoway River.
John Hightower and John Jr. recieved land patents in old Prince George Co. Va. north of the Nottoway River in 1752. Their neighbors were Gabriel Harrison, Thomas Hardaway, Israel Robertson, Richard, Joseph, and Daniel Walls, Joseph and Thomas Westmorland, and HENRY GREEN. It appears that John Hightower was the brother-in-law of Abraham Smith. John and Ann Smith Hightower resided in Lunenburg Co. Va. in 1769 when they sold 40 acres on Tommahetton Creek to Joshua Hightower.
This might place "Licking Place Branch" very close to Birchin and Tommahetton Creeks.
Dan.

Dan,

Here is an early grantee, LEWIS GREEN, in proximity to the Nottoway River.


http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=169&last=&g_p=P12&collection=LO Patent
"Title Green, Lewis.
Publication 22 February 1724.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Greene.
Note Location: Surry County.
Description: 400 acres on the North side of Nottaway River. Beginning at the mouth of Stony Creek on the North side the river.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 12, 1724-1726, p. 169 (Reel 11).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia.
Subject - Personal Green, Lewis. grantee."

http://ajax.lva.lib.va.us/F/SNM6CEDXE5QYDA3KHJXY2VU1XS4R6S55K7IG1AUE7AQSUNTAQS-00678?func=full-set-set&set_number=009088&set_entry=000218&format=999

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 09:19 AM
http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=246&last=&g_p=P15&collection=LO Patent

"Title Green, Lewis.
Publication 1 August 1734.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Greene.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 300 acres between Blackwater, and the Second Swamp.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 15, 1732-1735 (v.1 & 2 p.1-522), p. 246 (Reel 13).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 09:22 AM
http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=309&last=&g_p=P14&collection=LO Patent

"Title High, John.
Publication 25 August 1731.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 300 acres upon the Licking Place Branch of Nottway River.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 14, 1728-1732 (pt.1 & 2), p. 309 (Reel 11).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 09:24 AM
http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=438&last=&g_p=P26&collection=LO Patent

"Title High, John, Jr.
Publication 5 April 1748.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 36 acres on the Licking Place Branch on the north side of Nottoway River.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 26, 1747-1748 (v.1 & 2 p.1-730), p. 438 (Reel 24).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 09:26 AM
http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=181&last=&g_p=P11&collection=LO Patent

"Title Harrison, Gabriel.
Publication 18 February 1722.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Harryson.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 211 acres on both sides of the Licking place Branch, on the north side of Nottoway River.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 11, 1719-1724, p. 181 (Reel 10).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 09:30 AM
http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=16&last=&g_p=P14&collection=LO Patent

"Title Westmoreland, Thomas.
Publication 28 September 1730.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 100 acres on both sides of the Licking Place Branch above Morgan Mackennys.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 14, 1728-1732 (pt.1 & 2), p. 16 (Reel 11).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "


Then about 40 years later:

http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=797&last=&g_p=P42&collection=LO Patent

"Title Westmoreland, Thomas.
Publication 7 December 1774.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Note Location: Dinwiddie County.
Description: 18 acres on the Licking Place Branch of Nottoway River in Bath Parish.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 42, 1773-1774, p. 797 (Reel 41).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 10:18 AM
URL (Click on link) http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=897&last=&g_p=P19&collection=LO Patent

"Title Brooks, Thomas.
Publication 1 December 1740.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Brook, Brookes.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 100 acres on the north side of Nottoway River between Gabriel Harrisons, and Henry Greens lines.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 19, 1739-1741, p. 897 (Reel 17).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia"

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 10:21 AM
http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=549&last=&g_p=P18&collection=LO Patent

Title Harper, Joseph.
Publication 12 March 1739.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 1000 acres on both sides of Tommaheton Swamp on the north side of Nottoway River.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 18, 1738-1739, p. 549 (Reel 16).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 10:23 AM
http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=15&last=&g_p=P14&collection=LO Patent

"Title Green, Henry.
Publication 28 September 1730.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Greene.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 200 acres on the north side of Nottoway River, adjoining Daniel Jos. Wall.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 14, 1728-1732 (pt.1 & 2), p. 15 (Reel 11).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 10:26 AM
http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=277&last=&g_p=P12&collection=LO Patent

"Title Wall, Joshua.
Publication 17 August 1725.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Walls.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 202 acres on the north side of Nottoway River. Beginning at the mouth of Walls Run.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 12, 1724-1726, p. 277 (Reel 11).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 10:54 AM
http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=23&last=&g_p=P20&collection=LO Patent

"Title Smith, Richard, Jr.
Publication 15 October 1741.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Smyth.
Note Location: Brunswick County.
Description: 400 acres on the South side of Nottoway River.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 20, 1741-1743 (v.1 & 2 p.1-566), p. 23 (Reel 18).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "


http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=295&last=&g_p=P24&collection=LO Patent

"Title Smith, Richard, Jr.
Publication 25 July 1745.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Smyth.
Note Location: Brunswick County.
Description: 150 acres On Banister River.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 24, 1745-1746, p. 295 (Reel 22).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "


http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/GetLONN.pl?first=590&last=&g_p=P26&collection=LO Patent

Title Smith, Richard, Jr.
Publication 20 August 1748.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Smyth.
Note Location: Prince George County.
Description: 100 acres on the South side of Stoney Creek adjoining his own and Turners land.
Source: Land Office Patents No. 26, 1747-1748 (v.1 & 2 p.1-730), p. 590 (Reel 24).
Part of the index to the recorded copies of patents for land issued by the Secretary of the Colony serving as the colonial Land Office. The collection is housed in the Archives at the Library of Virginia. "

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
01-05-2006, 11:34 AM
Dan,

I haven't been able to follow this trading thread as closely as you, but I do believe that you are on the right track. I think among the occupations for Indians, trading, interpreting, etc. figured prominently. I checked out the excellent link you provided and found among the liscenses granted some were for Indian employees of traders....

I read the following years ago, and if my memory serves me right, this might have been one of the first places I saw the term "mustee" when Atkin briefly & casually referred to the number of mustees around the trading establishments. I need to go back and check it out, though....

"The Appalachian Indian Frontier
The Appalachian Indian Frontier: The Edmund Atkins Report and Plan of 1755
ed. by Edmund Atkins
107pp paperback
This elaborate report written by Atkins lays out the need for the colonies to win the support of the southern Indians. This book will be of particular interest to people who like the southern Indians and his excellent descriptions of the southern tribesmen of the period are valuable. W/ illustrations and maps. "

The South Carolina Archives had a display on line about the early Indian trade for awhile...what struck me is the sheer number of people involved from the merchants to the trader, to the many packmen in their employee....

I also suspect the trade and the mixed or mustee nature of some employees may account for a lack of straightforward tribal affiliation for some folks and also may account for some of the family traditions of Blackfook & Cherokee.... I mean that I think the early Saponi, Tutelo, etc. -- logical employees for the trade-- later mixed with other groups like the Cherokee as part of the trading culture. Isn't this historical aspect of Metis culture in Canada pretty much accepted without a lot of argument???

It may be helpful to check out the tax lists found in "Sunlight on the Southside" to get a further picture of who was in the area.

Brenda

Dan Akin
01-05-2006, 12:33 PM
Brenda; Thank you so very much!! This topic is very hard to research. From your postings on these families, and checking what these families say about themselves, I can determine that they all lived in the Stony Creek area in present Sussex County Va. on the north side of the Nottoway River. This area is around what was called "Fort Nottoway."
Sometimes what begins to be revealed can be amazing. Here is just one for-instance; (If this is really true, this is generally what this family says about themselves.) The Thomas Brooks you have listed here is probably the father of Thomas, Castleton, and Littleton Brooks. They are said to have lived at Stony Creek and Nottoway Bridge. Littleton Brooks moved west and married into the family of the Longhunter Elisha Walling. The Wallings hunted with and married into the family of my 6th greatgrandfather John Rice. All are related to Wm. Blevins. Wm. Blevins and Littleton Brooks were friends of Daniel Boone and represented the Watauga settlers at the 1775 Treaty of Sycamore Shoals with the Cherokee aka Henderson's Treaty.
The Blevins were accused at some time of aiding the Cherokee in a Montgomery Co. Va. court.

In my opinion, I'm seeing a story of a community of mixed and non-mixed Indian traders that kept moving west, became Longhunters, took wives from other tribes, and kept connected in some form or fashion. That is how my family retained so much Indian blood through all of these generations.
Dan.

Dan Akin
01-22-2006, 03:02 PM
Sue; The Lewis Green family of Stony Creek on the Nottoway River (ca. 1705 to 1724 ?) married into the Parham family. Wm. Parham was found Oct. 24, 1701 Charles City Co. Va. Patents 9, pg. 392, 450 acres upon the north side of the Nottoway River in an island below Monkese Neck (Moccusseneck, now called Rowanty Creek). and Thomas Parham of PGCO Oct. 31, 1726 VPB 13, pp. 67-68 North side of Stony Creek at the Old Trading Path.
Wm. Eaton appears to have held land on Butterwood Swamp, a branch of Stony Creek in the year 1732.
We later find Saponis living on Wm. Eaton's land in Granville Co. NC and also in Granville Co. are the Greens and Parhams and your Hunts and Allens along with the Reeves/Rieves family. Granville Co. of couse backs up to now Mecklenburg Co. Va. where my Greens and the Sizemores lived south of the Roanoke River (on the Granville side).
Do you know anything about this ?
Dan.

saj
01-22-2006, 08:16 PM
Dan,
Thanks for a reply!
I know some about it, in that the Allen and Hunt lines were in New Kent, Henrico, Hanover counties Va early..prior to 1700, and they moved into NC into Granville, Caswell, Person counties. There was a posting here on the forum of William Eaton and some connections there. One of the Hunt boys married Mary Jeffreys, a daughter of Osborne. I've posted quite a bit since finding this forum but I still have much to find. And the names are used over and over. Robert Allen Sr. had Robert Jr. He had a son Robert. My Joseph Allen, son of Robert Allen Sr had a Robert too. And Robert Allen Sr. had several brothers which I haven't even delved into...all in New kent co Va before 1700. Same with the Hunts. Ralph born before 1700 with several brothers also. Lines intersecting, names used over and over..And..cont'd

saj
01-22-2006, 08:27 PM
well, it gets a bit confusing.
It has been easier to track down a Memucan than a Robert, William or Charles.
All I know is yes these people are connected. Just don't have it all figured out and maybe never will.
Any help is always appreciated!
Sue J

saj
01-23-2006, 02:17 PM
Several hours later....
Any Green/Butler marriages?
John Green and Elizabeth Butler married in Granville co NC 1-1-1807. Elizabeth is the daughter of John Butler and Mary Hunt. Mary daughter of Memucan Hunt and Mary Wade.. .John Butler and Mary Hunt are on the 1812 Giles co Tn tax list.
No more info on John Green..Born c 1780?
Sue J

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
02-04-2006, 12:34 PM
Dan,

Don't know if this willl help your research or maybe it has already been posted, but I found this on a list of tithables for Surry County:

Virginia Genealogical Society Quarterly; Volume XXIV; Number 2:

"Surry County Tithables 1698,1699,1700"

"Edward Green, 1 Indian man called George, 1 Indian women called Jone"

Jemmy, an Indian is down the page

Brenda

Saponi 1
02-05-2006, 07:57 PM
http://www.freeafricanamericans.com/free_Indians.htm

ISLE OF WIGHT COUNTY
pp.490-1, Wm West of Newport Parish, Isle of Wight, daughter Mray Green an Indian Girl called Pinke for & during her natural life ... son Wm West my Indian girl called Rose ... for ever. Negro Jack unto son Robt. West and my Indian woman Peg unto daughter Deborhah West ... for ever. 9 February 1708/9.

SURRY COUNTY
p.367, 22 April 1707, inventory of Edward Green
1 Indian woman 15 pounds
2 children 30 pounds
1 Negro man 15 pounds

p.878, 23 January 1726, will of Nathaniel Green of Southwark Parish ... I give my Molatto boy Cit to my wife Faith to serve out the Time of his Indenture

p.893, 14 February 1728/9 inventory of Nathaniel Green, one Melotto boy free at twenty one years of age.
489], 1 September 1685, Geo. and Indyan srvt. to Edward Greene is adjudged five yrs. old.

1700
upper precinct of Southwarke Parish
p.82, Wm: Edmunds & Ventur an Indian
Edward Greene, Richd. Moore, George & Joane Indians – 4

1701
p.67, Edward Green, Richd Moore, George and Isaac Indians, in all- 4

1702 and 1703
Edward Greene, Jno. Nicholls, Tho: Aven, Richd. More, George & Joane Indians - 6


Saponi1

Dan Akin
02-06-2006, 07:56 AM
Thank you all! You all are always so very helpful. I will study this Edward Green.
I am also looking for a southside Va. Green immigrant to the Virginia Colony ca. 1630 to 1650.
There is an early Lewis Green, born ca. 1630, who is not listed on any ship's list and is said to have been born in the Colony. He is also said to have helped capture a man using his canoe.
Does anyone have a connection to early Virginia settlers lists after the initial first three Jamestown lists?
Dan.

saj
02-07-2006, 09:58 AM
Dan,
There are a few Greene men on these lists. On the Abraham..a Riger Greene and on the Merchant Bonaventure..George and Daniell..arriving in Virginia in 1635..As early as this was, it seems probable that any one of them could have met an Indian maiden? I do think that we (I) will never figure all of it out for lack of documentation, but anything could be a lead.
http://olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/tousa1600-1630.shtml
Saj

Bill Childs
02-07-2006, 02:44 PM
I checked my reference without finding a Lewis Green arrival. However, Lewis does sound like a middle/surname and he could have been recorded under a 'first' name.

Dan Akin
02-11-2006, 03:46 PM
Here is an interesting note. From the Library of Congress website; "The History of Virginia" published in 1722, page 200, "In Surery (Surry): Nottawayes, which are about 100 Bow-men, of late a thriving and increasing people."
Surry County Va. at that time consisted of what is now Surry and Sussex Counties and ended to the southwest along the Nottoway River. In 1722 they are the largest tribe on this book's list, are thriving, and are claimed to be in "Surery" or Surry County. This is the time frame and area, around Stony Creek Va., that I am seeing that my Greens are from and that also had a large Indian trading community.
Dan.

Aquah
02-26-2006, 10:22 PM
Hello,
I am Mike Johnson from Turtletown.org and I am looking for my old friend Vance Hawkins.

If you have a contact for him to provide me, please do.

Wado,
Mike J (Aquah)

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
03-03-2006, 10:06 PM
Dan,

If you haven't seen this Lewis Green site yet it is interesting. There is a colorful story about Lewis told by Daniel Boone posted.

"A story about Lewis Green, Sr. told by Daniel Boone
Occurred near the Clinch River

Lewis and a brother-in-law, who resided near Blackmore's, on Clinch, about fifteen miles below Captain Gass' place, where Boone was sojourning, went out some considerable distance among the mountains to hunt. They selected a good hunting range, erected a cabin, and laid up in store's some jerked bear meat. One day when Green was alone......."

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~kykinfolk/web/lewisgree/pafg12.htm


I am curious about the MOORE connection.

Brenda

Vivian Markley
03-03-2006, 11:43 PM
Brenda, I have a brickwall with my mother's ggggrandmother, Barbara or Barbary Moore. She married Charles Honeyman in Hampshire WV about 1785. Also lived in Hardy Co before moving to Miami County in old age to live with son Michael. Any insights appreciated.

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
03-04-2006, 12:42 AM
You got back further on your Moores than me! Thomas Moore, father of my Grandma Belle Moore Steele is where I am stuck!!!! He died in 1925 and the Steeles did not keep up with the family. My grandma died in 1964, so I have almost no info. to work with. I did find his grave on a hillside overlooking Devon, at the mouth of Beech Creek and I know he worked for the N & W railroad there. I did find his draft registration card that said he was born in Floyd Co., KY in 1888, leaving me to suspect that he may be a son Thomas of Calvin & Seatle Moore who was born in Floyd Co. in 1888. Can't find a death certificate for some reason, so at this point this is just a speculation. This Floyd County Moore family can be traced back to Surry Co. NC during the RW., then Orange Co. in 1750's. Before that, I don't know.

I am not familiar with the Moores in Hampshire County, but I remember from Cecil O'Dell's book on OLD FREDERICK that there was a William Moore from Prince Georges County, MD that moved into Orange Co. VA [Fairfax Grant] maybe by 1736? I think there is a Reily Moore, and a Joseph....Try looking in Orange Co., Old Frederick, and Hampshire. There are some Moore land grants on line at LVA, too, in these counties. Hampshire would have been Orange & Frederick early on.

I have this:

Orange Co. VA Order Book One 1734- 1739 at court on Tues the 20th of July 1736 John Smith, Wm. Moore, & John Daniels "made oath in open court that they were immediately imported into this Colony from Great Brittain or Ireland..." They were proving their rights for land, which they then assigned to a Robert Slaughter Gent.


A Riley Moore died in Frederick Co. Va, will proved 1 July 1760. He names wife Sarah, sons Reuben & James, other children not named...

There are a few other Moores.. I don't have any notes on a Barbary...women are always the hardest!!!

Here's a few grants from LVA:

Moore, William.
Publication 15 March 1744.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Virginia State Land Office. Patents 1-42, reels 1-41.
Related See also the following surname(s): Moor.
Note Location: Orange County.
Description: 275 acres on the branches of James River on the west side the Blue Ridge adjoining John Scott

Moor, James.
Publication 19 December 1769.
Other Format Available on microfilm. Northern Neck Grants, reels 288-311.
Note Location: Hampshire County.
Description: 184 acres on Hugh’s Mill Run a branch of Great Cacapehon.
Source: Northern Neck Grants O, 1767-1770, p. 246 (Reel 296).

There's more at LVA ......

Brenda

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
03-04-2006, 12:45 AM
On second thought, I'll move this over to genealogy. Bill may have some ideas.

Dan Akin
03-07-2006, 01:12 PM
Linda; I've learned from my cousin that my 6th greatgrandfather, Gardner Green, assigned land on the waters of Great Buffalo Creek to William Marable in Mecklenburg Co. Va. and that this land appears to have shared a boundary with "Stith's Line." It is possible that Gardner Green's land had been a part of Stith's land. Do you know who this Mecklenburg Co. Stith was?
Dan.

Linda
03-07-2006, 11:53 PM
I just went to a meeting of the Mecklenburg genealogical society tonight and the name Stith was prominent. We need some of those people in on this. I invited some over here. Hope they make it. I'll try to get up with them.

Bill Childs
03-08-2006, 12:45 AM
I'll look for them.
Bill

saj
03-09-2006, 11:14 AM
Hi!
Don't know if it's any help, but Drury Stith keeps popping up in many deeds for Lunenburg, Brunswick co, etc. Seems to have owned a lot of land. Saj

Vivian Markley
03-12-2006, 05:44 PM
I think this whole area is loaded with Stith. I sometimes wonder if the Stitt that we have in the Blevins family is just a misspelling but since it is not my direct line (that I know of) I have not researched it.
Here is one lead on the Stith family that gives some insight into possible Indian heritage or the lack thereof, but this is just one person. I am sure there are more and it would appear as if they held no negative attitude towared Native Americans

18. ROBERT18 BOLLING (JOHN17, ROBERT16, EDWARD15, TRISTRAM14, EDWARD13, TRISTRAM12, ROBERT11, ROBERT10, JOHN9, ROBERT8 DE BOLLING, JOHN7, WILLIAM6, JOHN5, ROBERT4, WILLIAM3, WILLIAM2, WILLIAM1) was born December 26, 1646 in All Hallows, Barking Parish, London, England, and died July 17, 1709 in "Kippax", Prince George County, Charles City, Virginia. He married (1) JANE ROLFE 1675 in Henrico Co., VA, daughter of THOMAS ROLFE and JANE POYTHRESS. She was born October 10, 1650 in Henrico County, Virginia, and died 1676 in "Kippax", Prince George County, Charles City, Virginia. He married (2) ANNE STITH 1681 in Virginia, daughter of DRURY STITH and JANE PARSONS.

Notes for ROBERT BOLLING:
Robert was the first of the Bollings to settle in Virginia, he arrived in October of 1660. Robert Bolling had one child with wife Jane Rolfe and eleven children with wife Ann Stith. The descendants Jane Rolfe are called the "red" Bollings and the descendants of Ann Stith are called the "white" Bollings.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/ky/messages/31303.html

Bill Childs
03-13-2006, 10:35 AM
"Drury Stith, Survr. " (surveyor), appears on many of the early Land Entry Records of this area in the 1740s and accumulated large tracts of land and is probably the same person referred to later as "Stith & Co Grants" in later Entry Records.
One hypothesis would be that this generated a "Charles Griffin effect" or another that he had a Native wife or wives.

Bill Childs
03-13-2006, 10:44 AM
Dan,
I only have a problem with the general propensity of europeans to refer to each individual village they ran across as a different 'tribe' , so we may never know if the three villages were or were not three separate tribes.
Bill

rockhound
03-13-2006, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Dan Akin
Techteach;
I will keep an eye out.
That Shawnee thing makes me wonder also.
I know it isn't popular, but the Shawnees lived for a time all over Mo.. In the Boone's Lick area of central Mo. thay served as guides and scouts for the local militias.
50 Shawnee braves were with Col. Henry Dodge and Capt. Benjamin Cooper when they cornered 500 Miamis at Malta Bend Mo. in the early 1800's.
Shawnee scouts were with Capt. Callaway when he was killed on the Loutre River.
The Shawnee had towns above Cape Girardieu along the Miss. River, on the Meremec River, at Owens Station in St. Louis County. at Lake Wappapello in southeast Mo., and a reservation just to the east of Springfield.
Here in Boone County we have a mysterious family of Ketchums who say they are cherokee, but the Ketchum name is found on U.S. treaties with the Shawnee.
One of the Ketchum descendants, a strange fellow, always said that he had been taught an Indian language by his grandfather. Although he could speak it very fluently it sounded very weird and certainly wasn't Cherokee.
Dan.

The Shawnee also had a village where the Meramec River meets the Bourbeouse River (now Moselle, MO). They were invited to live there around 1796 by the French or Spanish to serve as a buffer for the nearby Osage Indians. I want to say the man that ruled the village was a Roberts or a Rogers.

rockhound
03-13-2006, 02:44 PM
Dan Akin,

Have you ever looked into the Indians who fought at Point Pleasant and may have been acquaintances of Daniel Boone at that time? Maybe there is a connection there...

Vivian Markley
03-13-2006, 03:32 PM
Not sure if this will help since you did not post the year but a Thompson Stith recorded land in Mecklenburg.
There are also 6 references to Green.
12/11/1780 Benjamin Whitehead 400 acres, grantees, William; Coleman, Cleverius; and Whitehead, Benjamin.

12/11/1780 William Green Being Escheat land of Andw. Cockran, Wm Cunningham and Company British Subjects. Description: 400 acres beginning at Humphries corner on a branch of Allens Creek, &c. Grantee(s): Green, William; Coleman, Cleverius; and Whitehead, Benjamin.

12/11/1780 Cleverius Coleman, 400 acres

7/5/1774 George Ridley Description: 400 acres on the branches of Buckhorn Creek, adjoining Green and Hatchers land.

4/5/1774 James Griffith Description: 325 acres on the waters of Buffalo Creek, adjoining John Westmoreland, Wm. Green, &c.

2/16/1771 John Green Description: 380 acres on both sides of Buffalo Creek adjoining Griffins land.

This is the search engine
http://ajax.lva.lib.va.us/F/I13BRCK741ML5FTCECCFGX9MXDDGV12IMMMEFCKL2I1I1682G4-02673?func=file&file_name=find-b

I use the "Land Records" "military Records and resources"
They have all of Va's military for Lord Dunsmore and you can see the original land record when there is a link at the top of the listing. I have never registered and it is easy to copy/paste so you don't have to type. If you use a spreadsheet you can even make it searchable.

Don Greene
06-12-2006, 09:14 AM
Bezon Dan and all, I just came to your forum and so haven't read all of the posts concerning the Gardner Green issue but felt I would share my latest findings. As a Researcher of the Shawnee of the 1700's I had found that in all likelihood Gardner's wives were either Christian Shawnee or Shawnee-Metis or adopted former captives of the Shawnee. this was my status on my ancestor, through his son John, until lately when while working on some other chickamauga families I realized that many of the families among the Chickamauga and Cherokee that were disallowed as members of the Cherokee were in fact Shawnee-Metis. Following the logic that if Family A was living as Chickamauga/Cherokee and were disallowed as members of the Cherokee and were in fact Shawnee-Metis then Family B that was living as Chickamauga/Cherokee and were also disallowed must be also Shawnee-Metis. since the family of Gardner Green falls into this catagory then it follows that in all likelihood he was in fact a Shawnee-Metis that lived as a Chickamauga/Cherokee. I will write again after reading all of the posts on this subject but that is where I am at today. I noticed a mention in the posts about the Battle of Point Pleasant. I am from Point Pleasant and humbly suggest that I have the most comprehensive and complete lists of combatants both white and red that may be found. Any queries on this battle are welcome. To see a sample of my work (though a little dated, coming form 2004) please visit www.shawnee-traditions.com/Names Paselo my borhter (and relative) Don Greene

techteach
06-12-2006, 01:08 PM
The rumor in my Green family is Cherokee, but in fact, the language that one of my cousins remembers a few words from, is Shawnee. And the location they came from was very near Shawnee villages in WVA/VA, Martinsburg.


Techteach

rockhound
06-28-2006, 04:28 PM
Bezon Dan and all, I just came to your forum and so haven't read all of the posts concerning the Gardner Green issue but felt I would share my latest findings. As a Researcher of the Shawnee of the 1700's I had found that in all likelihood Gardner's wives were either Christian Shawnee or Shawnee-Metis or adopted former captives of the Shawnee. this was my status on my ancestor, through his son John, until lately when while working on some other chickamauga families I realized that many of the families among the Chickamauga and Cherokee that were disallowed as members of the Cherokee were in fact Shawnee-Metis. Following the logic that if Family A was living as Chickamauga/Cherokee and were disallowed as members of the Cherokee and were in fact Shawnee-Metis then Family B that was living as Chickamauga/Cherokee and were also disallowed must be also Shawnee-Metis. since the family of Gardner Green falls into this catagory then it follows that in all likelihood he was in fact a Shawnee-Metis that lived as a Chickamauga/Cherokee. I will write again after reading all of the posts on this subject but that is where I am at today. I noticed a mention in the posts about the Battle of Point Pleasant. I am from Point Pleasant and humbly suggest that I have the most comprehensive and complete lists of combatants both white and red that may be found. Any queries on this battle are welcome. To see a sample of my work (though a little dated, coming form 2004) please visit www.shawnee-traditions.com/Names Paselo my borhter (and relative) Don Greene

Don,

I'd love to see a list of those who fought at Point Pleasant. Please reply here or send me a PM.

Dan Akin
08-25-2006, 03:12 PM
Don; Greetings! Sorry, I'm so slow to respond. I am very interested in what you might have to offer us Gardner Green descendants. I would gladly accept any documentation or historical reference you might have.
I, as I most often do, go way out front of my family researchers, and way beyond their obtained documentation to try to see where to go next in our search.
As far as my Green family, it appears our trail is leading us back to the banks of the James River and the early 1600's. To the towns of the Weanoc, Appomatoc, Paspahegh, and the Arrohattoc.
Sir Thomas Dale came to relieve the Jamestown settlers in 1611. Just a few were left. Some had escaped to the Indians during the "Starving Time."
Governor Dale built a new capital of the colony at the Arrohattoc town, now called Farrars Island, Chesterfield Co. Va., and named it Henricus. He established Henricus College which had a school for Indians and eventually allowed almost anyone (indentured servants, etc.) to own land and build farms. Those farms spread out from Henricus.
By 1616, it is believed that William and Martha Sizemore held land on Sizemores Creek (Point of Rocks and Johnsons Creek area ?) in the area just west of the confluence of the Appomattox and James Rivers (per research of Joy King). This area is just south/southeast of Henricus.
During the Indian attack of 1622 Henricus was destroyed and Martha and William Sizemore escaped to West and Sherlow Island. I believe it is now called Eppes Island which is just south of Shirley Plantation and in 1622 was the location of a Weanoc (Wyanoke) Indian village.
The Greens are connected in documents in the Mecklenburg County, Buffallo Creek area of Virginia to the Sizemore and Busby family. Thomas Busby was the agent and interpretor in the 1600's to the Weanocs.
Knowing that the Greens are Indian and that they came out of Prince George County Va. in the early 1700's and that the Weanocs had villages in Prince George County up until 1722 would lead me to speculate that they were most likely Weanocs.
I would appreciate any info on these tribes which might pertain to my family.
Dan.

PappyDick
08-25-2006, 06:01 PM
Following the logic that if Family A was living as Chickamauga/Cherokee and were disallowed as members of the Cherokee and were in fact Shawnee-Metis then Family B that was living as Chickamauga/Cherokee and were also disallowed must be also Shawnee-Metis. since the family of Gardner Green falls into this catagory then it follows that in all likelihood he was in fact a Shawnee-Metis that lived as a Chickamauga/Cherokee.

It only "follows" if one accepts the logic you have described -- which is deeply flawed.

But, it is possible. As is any other non-Cherokee (or non-Indian) origin, such as Dan Akin's Weanoc suggestion.

Linda
08-25-2006, 06:43 PM
The Greens are connected in documents in the Mecklenburg County, Buffallo Creek area of Virginia to the Sizemore and Busby family. Thomas Busby was the agent and interpretor in the 1600's to the Weanocs.
Knowing that the Greens are Indian and that they came out of Prince George County Va. in the early 1700's and that the Weanocs had villages in Prince George County up until 1722 would lead me to speculate that they were most likely Weanocs.


What documents speak of Greens near Buffalo Creek? I live near there and have family ties to Indian Greens nearby. How big was Prince George County in the early 1700's? Didn't it stretch westward indefinetely? What documents are there of Indian Greens in Prince George? I know people this would be very important to. If you could cite the reference I would greatly appreciate it.

Dan Akin
08-26-2006, 01:46 PM
Linda; Sorry, but there are no documents or references discovered yet that prove the Greens coming out of Prince George Co. Va. are Indian and what tribe they descend from. It is a case I have yet to prove. We know they are Indian just because we always have been, but I am speculating on those origins.
This last June 26th, 2006 the Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisianna Territory, a group based primarily upon my Green family, finally sent their petition to the BIA for federal recognition as an Indian tribe. I don't think they stand a ghost of a chance.
To me, it is not a case of setting county or territorial boundaries but of the flow of colonial settlement. In a way your are correct about the boundaries of Prince George Co. Va. but it was not the case of actual settlement.
From a website named Mizell Records in Surry County, "1691,The land route from Surry into North Carolina was blocked by a large expanse of Indian territory covering the entire area from the Blackwater River to the North Carolina border, Whites had been prohibited from settling south of the Blackwater, and just a few months before Lawrence's dissapearance the Governor had ordered several squatters removed. It would be another ten years before settlement was permitted in that region."
And from the Westover Manuscripts of Wm. Byrd in 1728 "About ten o'clock we traveled out of town (Nottoway Indian Town, Assamoosick Swamp) in good order, and the war captains saluted us with a volley of small arms. From thense we proceeded over Black-water Bridge to Col. Henry Harrison's, where we congratulated each other upon OUR RETURN INTO CHRISTENDOM."
Checking a topo-map, Blackwater Bridge Va. is between Isle of Wight and Southhampton counties where Hwy. 603 crosses the Blackwater River.
So it appears to me that, even though settlement had reached the Nottoway River (formerly called Wyanoke River) between 1700 to 1720, as late as 1700 general settlement had not crossed the Blackwater River north of the Nottoway and by 1728 "Christendom" still did not extend over the Blackwater in some areas. The headwaters of Blackwater River extends to just south of Hopewell and Petersburg Va.
Bristol Parish of Prince George Co., was a parish set aside for the inhabitants of the Appomattox River valley. From Rowanty Swamp (west Petersburg) up along the south bank of the Appomattox River to Cittie Point (north Hopewell). This area contained the lands of Abraham Wood, Peter Jones, Peter Wynne, John Studivant, Nicholas Overby, William Vaughan, Lewis Green, and Robert Hix. Along north Prince George county were John Wall, and Peter Poythress of Powell's Creek.
I just want to post things I've stumbled across so far;
John Smith found the Weanoc in five villages on both sides of the James River in what became Charles City County in 1618. The main Weanoc town was at Powell's creek present Prince George Co. Va. Another town was at Wyanoke Point called Wyonoke Fort in present Charles city Co. near West and Sherlow Hundred. Another town (I think this is right) was said to be near Cittie/City Point, which was first called Bermuda City now north Hopewell. In 1619 they had a "Free School" for scholars from Henricus College.
In 1645 a part of the Weanoc(Wyanoke) tribe had leased land in North Carolina on Ahoskie (Auhostky) Swamp on the Wiccacon River from the Tuscaroras. Robert Hix became a trader to the Tuscaroras.
In 1661 the Wyanoke had a village among the Nottoway villages across from Fort Nottoway south of the Nottoway River and mouth of Stoney Creek in present Sussex Co. Va. This area after 1710 would contain lands of Robert Hix.
By 1672 Thomas Busby (agent and interpretor to the Wyanokes) had built a plantation on the main Blackwater Swamp in Surry Co. Va. He sold that plantation to EDWARD GREEN in 1672. Still on the Blackwater, it is written about Thomas Busby "Upon the complaint of Mr. Ar. Jordan, Lt. Thomas Busby, and other English inhabitants on the Blackwater who have made it appear that they have suffered very greatly by the WEANOAKE INDYANS killing and driveing away their Hoggs, it is oredered that they, the Waenoak Indyans doe forthwith kill all the doggs that can hurt a Hog..."
Dan.

Dan Akin
08-26-2006, 02:50 PM
Let's concider another suggested location of a Weanoc town. There is a group called the "Weyanoke Association." It is a group of mixed race Black/Indian who claim that at Gov. Sir George Yeardley's plantation south of the James River at Flower de Hundred (now Prince George Co.) there was a Weanoc village that they mixed with. Their website is at http://www.weyanoke.org/weyanoke.html
At http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7933/walke-sb.html is info on Sir George Yeardley and that Yeardley's plantation was sold to Joseph Pythress in 1725. Now is it just a coincidence that Peter Poythress was a trader, interpretor, and agent to the Tuscaroras in 1720? This makes me concider the Wyanoke/ Tuscarora connection.
After Bacon's Rebellion, I've seen it written, "The Wyanoke tribe, when Bacon disturbed the Indians, fled to their former settlement on the Roanoke River. In 1711 some old men of the Nottoway Indians, upon being asked if they knew anything of the return of the Weyanokes to Carolina replied;'They did go thither for they were afraid of Squire Bacon, and therefore resolved to go to their own land."

Joy King's info on William and Martha Sizemore is at http://www.genpage.com/history_surname.html
The Wayanoke (Weanoc) Fort near West and Sherlow Island is at http://www.geocities.com/naforts/vajames.htm#way
It says, "A major Indian town located on Weyanoke Point, opposite the Turkey Island Cutoff, as noted on John Smith's map of 1608. They were originally NOT A PART of Powhaton's dominion AND SERVED AS MIDDLEMEN IN THE TRADE TO THE SOUTHERN NATIONS. The Shirley Plantation was built in 1723."
The info on Peter Poythress is from the "Poythress Homepage" at http://www.poythress.net/
Dan.

Dan Akin
08-26-2006, 03:06 PM
Sorry! That's http://www.geocities.com/naforts/vajames.html#wey for Weyanoke Fort.
Info on Thomas Busby is at http://www.batbox.org/Chapter-3.pdf
The Henricus website is at http://www.henricus.org/frame.html
Dan.

Dan Akin
08-28-2006, 07:50 AM
Here is Weyanoke timeline from the excellent website of Charles City County Va. It is at http://www.charlescity.org/natives/topic-timeline.php
Dan.

Dan Akin
09-03-2006, 12:00 PM
Linda; I want to start posting info on inter-related families, ca. 1740 to 1790, from the Buffalo Creek/Roanoke River area along a line to the area of Winns and Polecat Creeks on the Banister. This, going west, is Great Buffalo Creek, Aarons Creek, Hyco River, Banister River, Winns Creek, and Polecat Creek.
First, a short bit on the generally accepted (probably still debatable) relation of the Sizemore, Green, Jackson, and Griffin families. Other relations to the Greens in this area and time are Wall, Vaughan, Overby, and Owen.
Remember that these Sizemores (appox. 2000) and these Greens (approx. 200) each applied to the Guion-Miller Commission for Cherokee claims in the early 1900's.
This is how the generations are supposed to go;
1. Wm. Sizemore
2. Ephraim Sizemore
3. Ephraim Sizemore, William Sizemore, George Sizemore

1. Wm. Sizemore
2. Henry Sizemore
3. James Sizemore, Edward Sizemore, Sarah Sizemore

1. Henry Green & Eliz. Griffin
2. John Green, Stephen Green, Frederick Green, Richard Green, Henry Green Jr., Dorcas Green wife of Wm. Jackson mother of Eliz. Jackson and Eliz. Jackson being the wife of the above Edward (Old Indian Ned) Sizemore, Winifred Green wife of the above Wm. Sizemore

My Gardner Green is listed with John Green, son of Henry Green, on the 1764 (Sunlight on the Southside) Tithables list for (old) Lunenburg Co. Va., St. James Parish (later became Mecklenburg Co. Va.) It is therefor assumed that he was John's son.

From the South Carolina Magazine of Ancestral Research; John Busby of the Province of South Carolina, to William Sizemore of Mecklenburg County, Province of Virginia concideration: 100lbs current money of Va land: in Mecklenburg on both sides of GREAT BUFFALO CREEK, beginning on Henry Green's line to Wm. Griffin's line, crossing Great Buiffalo, Green's corner to beginning, 200 acres. Witnesses: GARDNER GREEN, Edward Ware, John Sizemore (son of Wm. Sizemore), recorded 9 Nov., 1772 - Book 3, pg. 483, 29 Oct. 1772.
Dan.

Dan Akin
09-04-2006, 09:46 AM
I want to post this next to see if anyone knows anything about it. It's from the Colonial Pettypoole page of George Baumbach's and already mentioned on this forum.
Seth Pettypoole was the son of Wm. Pettypoole. and Wm. was a Virginia Indian trader and acquaintance of Richard Smith and John Evans, this John Evans supposedly being either the brother-in-law or father-in-law of Capt. Robert Hix.
We find Seth Pettypoole on Aarons (also called Tewahominy) Creek in 1756.
"Seth Petty Poole of Halifax County to NICHOLAS OVERBY of Lunenburg County, 100 acres, part being in Lunenburg County and part in Halifax County, on both sides of Tewayhominy Creek, the lower part of 404 acres granted by patent. Wit. Luke Smith Jr., Zachariah Smith, RALPH GRIFFIN, RICHARD GRIFFIN, 2 Aug., 1756." and Seth's brother John, "John Pettipool, 200 acres on Aaron's Creek beginning at John Pool's and PETER OVERBY'S line thance up the same, 12 Aug. 1752."
Then we have in 1825 the "Original Deed to Buffalo Baptist Church" at http://www.rootsweb.com/~vameckle/d0buffch.htm The property was given, I think, by Henry Green 3rd. It mentions "Stephen P. Pool and William Wall, Justices of the Peace in the County aforesaid..."
My point to this is; It appears that settlement to this area, beginning I believe around 1745 to 1750, contained elements of the Indian Trading community, from the 1700 to 1750 timeframe, from the Nottoway River. This, to me, supports my belief that Henry, and Richard Green along the Nottoway River, shown on references to deeds from that time frame and area, are the same as the ones showing up later in the Great Buffalo Creek to Banister River area.
Dan.

Dan Akin
09-04-2006, 12:04 PM
Another reference; Lunenburg County Va. Deed Books 1761-1764 FHLbook, 4 may, 1761 Syth Petty Pool & wife Martha of Halifax Co. to GEORGE MOORE of Lunenburg Co., 26 lbs for 100 acres in Lunenburg Co. on east side of Tewayhominy Creek adjoining Nicholas Overby. Wit: PETER OVERBY, WILLIAM SIZEMORE, & STEPHEN GREEN
Will of Henry Green Jr. 2-23-1761, 5-5-1761; Will Book 2/8 has as executors; William Sizemore and John Green. One of the witnesses was GEORGE MOORE
Will Book 2, pg. 106; Henry Green (this is Henry Green Jr.); Inventory and appraisal of the estate of Henry Green in accordance with the order of May Court 1761, made 29 July, 1761 by GEORGE MOORE, Daniel Gold, and PETER OVERBY.
I think that the Sizemores and Greens were well acquainted with the Pettypooles.
Dan.

KathieGreenTitus
09-15-2010, 02:01 PM
Hello fellow Green people -- my grandmother was a Green whose family came from Ft. Royal, Warren Co, Virginia area. She was born in 1874; can't believe that I'm 56 years old and my GRANDmother would be 136 years old today if alive. On the tail end of an old family, lol.
My grandfather was Milliard Fillmore Green and his father was Isaac Newton Green, b. 1824 in Ft. Royal. His father was Jesse Green, born 1788 and I 'think' his father was George.
I remember as a child my grandmother talking about her family from Kentucky. I believe that she thought her ancestors were from Kentucky because that is all she heard as a child from her family--getting letters from relatives in Kentucky. It was only years later that we discovered that the Green's had previously been in Virginia.
I know that Isaac Newton and his wife Sarah and 2 small children along with Jesse [ggg must have been deceased] came to north central West Virginia and settled.
If anyone has any info of this branch of Greens would appreciate it.

Thanks.