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Thread: Dna

  1. #1
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    Dna

    In the time since I last posted on DNA, things have changed. Just a few years ago, there was only the male (YDNA) and female (mtDNA) test available as you were exploring your native ancestry. Now, methods have so advanced that you can take the autosomal test and explore both sets of parents and then compare your DNA results with tests for ethnicity. There are multiple testing companies but the 3 that I see most frequently (I am not an expert though.) are 23andMe, FamilytreeDNA, and now Ancestry.com (Ancestry purchased Gene Tree.). I have not used 23andMe, but through third party resources (www.gedmatch.com), a DNA connection contacted me and was trying to determine where/how three of us matched. Two were DNA tests done on FamilytreeDNA and one was 23andMe. As I understand 23andMe, it will provide a medical result also, telling you if your family is prone to diabetes or other medical conditions. Now, honestly, I have found free software online that I was able to test my FamilytreeDNA through and see that I am most likely to have blue eyes (which I have), have diabetes (which my mother has), and have blond hair (which I don't have).

    FamilytreeDNA has an autosomal test that they call Family Finder. It runs around 250 dollars. I have found and connected with a few cousins through this test. Its ethnicity reader leaves a lot to be desired though, as it says that I am 100% British Isles which I am not. I have a German father. However, you can upload the results to Gedmatch and play with the 4 ethnicity tests (called chromosome) there. Using these tests, I see the indigenous blood, my father's German, my mother's central European, and her British Isles. Very fun to play with.

    Finally, ancestry.com has come on board in the last couple of years through the purchase of Gene Tree DNA. When you test through ancestry.com (100.00), your DNA results are connected to the ancestry trees of others if they have them. There are some who criticize the results, but for me, and I have tested myself, my mother, my mother-in-law, and my father-in-law, they have been pretty much correct. It does not detect native American (or at least it does not if it is a small part) but for me and my mother, does show some unidentified DNA. Through this test, I have connected with several cousins and we have been able to share stories and expand our ancestry trees. When able, I am going to upload the DNA samples I have had done to Gedmatch and see what ethnicities show up there.

    The problem is that the huge numbers of people who tested DNA through ancestry.com crashed the Gedmatch computers, so they are working to bring them online and hope to do so by the end of this month.

    So to summarize this rambling posting for autosomal DNA (See earlier postings of mine on male and female DNA)

    1. Companies:

    23andMe - gives ethnicity, relationships, and medical data (As I understand it, it is the toughest to make contact with DNA matches though, likely because of the medical aspect.)

    FamilytreeDNA - autosomal test is called Family Finder. Gives DNA matches that can be sorted the best. Ethnicity tool is lacking for me at least, but uploading the results to Gedmatch opens up many ways to explore your results. FamilytreeDNA will also test your female and male DNA.

    Ancestry.com - autosomal test only. It gives you an ethnicity result which is criticized, but it worked for me (I thing some of their results go back thousands of years.) and ties into your ancestry tree and finding the common ancestor you have if you have one, finding common surnames, and maps all birth locations of your trees. Sorting and searching frustrates me though. I keep wanting to search for locations and surnames, and it does not have this.

    Gedmatch - a non-profit website that permits you to upload results, see matches from other companies, and explore your ethnic background using several tests.

    Techteach
    Grandmother: McLane, Green, Sinkey, McCartney, Potter, Butt, Huston, Ralston, Horner, Davis, DeMoss, French, Beaver, ...

    Grandfather: Carpenter, Swearingen, Tomlinson, McMurray, Mount, all from PA area. VA and KY areas - Talbot, Schollars, Gordon, Davis, Walker, Featherkile, Morton, Chiles, Grayson, Davis, Moore, Wright, Johns, Carr, Sisk, Isham, Clayton, Shelton

    Paternal is German, documented at Ellis Island.

  2. #2
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    Techteach,

    As of March 2011,DNA Tribes also offers an autosomal test. It is an snp report and divides populations into 7 continental zones and 17 world regions. in addition to the %s,it also shows one's genetic similarity to various ethnicities,both native and diaspora.

    DNA Tribes processed me quickly! I submitted the raw data (from 23 and Me) and payment in the morning and my 25 page report (delivered by e-mail) was ready the same day. My ethnic %s were somewhat different than what 23 and Me had but they still suggested a triracial background. (Computed 3/23/2011)

    I tested last year with Ancestry.com. I question their testing and calculations. Many of my matches on that site show 10% or more "Uncertain" ancestry. Unbelievably,some matches have even been of 50-100% "Uncertain" ancestry. (?) How can someone's ancestry be that unknown; (50%+) I don't get it.

    On the plus side,Ancestry ranks the "confidence level" of various matches. Yes,I've seen a few white people in my matches that were ranked with 95% or more confidence but I couldn't fit them into my family
    tree or oral history. Sure is frustrating to know you're almost certainly related but can't prove it!

    However,because Ancestry matches family trees to show surnames occurring in one's tree and other trees,I have found several verifiable distant cousins.

    But,I wish that Ancestry would allow me to excise those matches that have private,locked family trees
    from my DNA matches. I got into genealogy to trace my family and maybe meet a few cousins along the way. If people don't want to share family trees and other information,what's the point?

  3. #3
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    Hey guys, good to see you here. I'm wondering, my mom is 90 now, would it be possible to do the cheek swab thing and hold onto them for a future date, when we can do lots of testing, and when newer better tests come along? I know she was involved with a research project last fall. They found the plane her kid brother, at 23, had been shot down in over Germany in 1942. They were trying to collect DNA from living family members and my mom was able to send them envelopes that she'd saved from other survivors way back then and they were able to retrieve DNA from them. I'm curious if there's a way to DIY some Q-tips, and save them for posterity.

  4. #4
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    Supposedly, when you submit, they keep the samples. My FamilytreeDNA Sinkey person has been gone for several years, and they still have a sample of his YDNA hat is untested. That being said, my first mtDNA FamilytreeDNA sample was not good enough for the Family Finder test, and I had to resubmit a swab, so it is questionable if we can use this Sinkey sample for autosomal testing.

    Ancestry was fine for me; Family Finder was not. The reality is that the test is only as good as its sample population, and Native American groups are reluctant to submit DNA. The tribe to which I now belong, the Piqua Shawnee, is not submitting DNA swabs. Other tribes feel the same. Also, tribes that were swamped early on are going to be tough to compare, I think.

    The Family Finder results were fun to play with using chromosome tests on Gedmatch. One test showed the results I would have expected given what I think from genealogy. Family Finder results were disappointing, although I have found several cousins through Family Finder and Ancestry.

    Ancestry results will at some point be able to be submitted to Gedmatch, so I can play with the results. I have tested my in-laws. The tribal members think the hubby has hidden NA in his Danish and German mother and father lines. When I submit his family results, we will see .

    Techteach

    PS: Linda, should we be a match, given the Potters? We should both submit to Gedmatch when they are accepting new uploads (Ancestry results swamped their servers.) and see if they show us as a match if the Potters in your family are in your line.
    Grandmother: McLane, Green, Sinkey, McCartney, Potter, Butt, Huston, Ralston, Horner, Davis, DeMoss, French, Beaver, ...

    Grandfather: Carpenter, Swearingen, Tomlinson, McMurray, Mount, all from PA area. VA and KY areas - Talbot, Schollars, Gordon, Davis, Walker, Featherkile, Morton, Chiles, Grayson, Davis, Moore, Wright, Johns, Carr, Sisk, Isham, Clayton, Shelton

    Paternal is German, documented at Ellis Island.

  5. #5
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    Oh, and I agree with your comment on private trees. Or at least, whenever someone matches, they reply and/or send emails. Likewise, don't even show those without trees. And don't allow tree people who take from your tree without an agreement that they communicate with the people from whom they take the information.

    (Speaks the person who is guilty of doing that several times. However, it has been done to me more than I have done it.)
    Grandmother: McLane, Green, Sinkey, McCartney, Potter, Butt, Huston, Ralston, Horner, Davis, DeMoss, French, Beaver, ...

    Grandfather: Carpenter, Swearingen, Tomlinson, McMurray, Mount, all from PA area. VA and KY areas - Talbot, Schollars, Gordon, Davis, Walker, Featherkile, Morton, Chiles, Grayson, Davis, Moore, Wright, Johns, Carr, Sisk, Isham, Clayton, Shelton

    Paternal is German, documented at Ellis Island.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by techteach View Post
    In the time since I last posted on DNA, things have changed.
    she said, a couple of years ago...

    So, hi everybody, I haven't been posting here for quite a while because I got into genetic genealogy around the beginning of 2011, and have gradually become more and more involved... mostly with Y-DNA (mine isn't native American, so that has no direct Saponitown carryover). I'm administrator of one of the big haplogroup projects at FTDNA, which generates a lot of email and eats up time. Besides having some very advanced "NextGen" Y-DNA sequencing at two companies (FGC and FTDNA), I've done the Full Mitochondrial Sequencing (FTDNA), tested autosomally at 23andMe, had the non-medical part of that transferred to FTDNA, and uploaded it to Gedmatch. My Gedmatch ID is M195517, if Techteach or anybody wants to try for a 1:1 comparison with me...

    I have found a very small bit of native DNA there, and matched a couple of other people who have it -- but it may not be from my VA/NC ancestry; I also have a family tradition of some from Connecticut. I agree, the chromosome painting programs there are fun to play with. A little hard to understand, but fun.

    The basic level testing has gotten much less expensive in recent years, and the databases keep growing. So you get more for your money -- even if you spent it years ago, and paid what now looks like way too much. The company I prefer, FTDNA, usually has sale pricing at least a couple of times a year, say late July to early Aug. and mid-Dec. to New Year, more or less. That's the best time to buy tests, if you are frugal and think you will live forever. (I'm not, and don't.)

    There are many, many uses for genetic information on your ancestry, ethnic makeup being one that interests a lot of people, but certainly not the only one. It can prove or disprove your paperwork, break down brick walls, find lost cousins, identify unknown parents of adoptees (occasionally), and so on. It can really be sort of magical, when it works.

  7. #7
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    PappyDick,

    Not a match to you. Sorry.

    I have it on my to-do list to get into genetic genealogy deeper. A big learning curve though. I have tested on Ancestry, FTDNA, 23andMe, and now, because I have a genetic condition that is beginning to disable me, I just sent my sample to the University of Michigan through a Facebook app called Good Genes in hope for a cure, if not for me, for my kids.

    Techteach
    Grandmother: McLane, Green, Sinkey, McCartney, Potter, Butt, Huston, Ralston, Horner, Davis, DeMoss, French, Beaver, ...

    Grandfather: Carpenter, Swearingen, Tomlinson, McMurray, Mount, all from PA area. VA and KY areas - Talbot, Schollars, Gordon, Davis, Walker, Featherkile, Morton, Chiles, Grayson, Davis, Moore, Wright, Johns, Carr, Sisk, Isham, Clayton, Shelton

    Paternal is German, documented at Ellis Island.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by PappyDick View Post
    I've done the Full Mitochondrial Sequencing (FTDNA), tested autosomally at 23andMe, had the non-medical part of that transferred to FTDNA, and uploaded it to Gedmatch. My Gedmatch ID is M195517, if Techteach or anybody wants to try for a 1:1 comparison with me...

    I have found a very small bit of native DNA there, and matched a couple of other people who have it -- but it may not be from my VA/NC ancestry; I also have a family tradition of some from Connecticut. I agree, the chromosome painting programs there are fun to play with. A little hard to understand, but fun.
    Comparing your kit to all my family samples yielded no matches (I'm M233631). Interested to know what admixture calculator(s) you used to determine native DNA?

    Reading the history of haplogroups it seems there is constant change in terms of the sub-groups and ancestry classification. For example R1b that is said to be european but shows up in several native population groups with no history of european contact. Small sample size seems to be the biggest roadblock, which is becoming less of a problem as time goes on.

    Are you a Tier 1 member of GedMatch PappyDick? I ask because I'm wondering if the GEDCOM+DNA match feature is currently availalble to Tier 1 members? There are several very interesting results I was able to find with this feature when it was available. In my case the VA/NC genealogy was strongly reinforced by DNA results.

    I'm no expert either, but I've been teaching myself as best I can, the ISOGG website has been a good resource for me. Lately I've been trying to learn the finer points of IBD (identical by descent) vs IBS (identical by state) and triangulation.

    So far I've been able to collect seven family samples. However, I've encountered hostility towards DNA analysis in some branches of my family. Presumably because there are some children who are known to not be the blood children of one or both parents and it is not known to the child. Converesly some of those Ive met who are most involved in DNA are adopted children who are building a picture of their blood parents.

    The health portion of 23andMe has not been very useful for me. Everything that came up I already knew from my family history (cystic fibrosis, not flushing alcohol, alzheimers.)

  9. #9
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    I'm in whatever tier it is that hasn't sent Gedmatch any money yet, nor pledged to do so regularly. But then I've only visited that site a few times -- have had my data on it for several years. Autosomal isn't really my "thing," I've done the drill mainly to help other people. I knew two of my grandparents well and interviewed them at length about genealogy, starting in the early 1950s. For the other two, I interviewed (several of) their siblings. So, I don't have a lot of mysteries to solve, about the generations recent enough to learn a whole lot from my autosomal test results. There have been a few lucky hits, though -- 4th or 5th cousins with small matches, but big enough to prove our relatedness through someone to whom we both have a paper trail.

    Roberta Estes has a genetic genealogy blog, and recently posted at some length about Native American issues. It doesn't address your curiosity -- which I share -- about R1b families (or whole tribes) in eastern North America with no tradition of European paternal ancestry. But it's fairly comprehensive, for what it does cover: http://dna-explained.com/2015/03/31/...ibe-using-dna/

    The person I match most comprehensively (especially on chr. 12, but a little bit on all of them but the Y, which she doesn't even have) who clearly has Native American ancestry is kit A483312. But I have not succeeded in contacting her, or anyway not with a reply. Her listed email address may be a broken link, but I'm not getting a "bounce" message. She also matches the father of a well known genetic genealogist, who told me about my matches (with them both). He, at least, has no NC/VA ancestry; but he does have some from central PA, where our southeastern tribes were for some time resident, on their way (eventually) to Canada.

    The "painting" program she used was the Eurogenes K13 calculator... is that specific enough? I remember when that was all I had to go on, it was hard to figure out how to get to it. But eventually I did. Also, it's often hard to log onto Gedmatch at all, the site is heavily used. Middle of the night or the crack of dawn seems to be the best time to try.

  10. #10
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    That very helpful, thanks.

    I have not paid for GedMatch either, but recently learned about the Tier1 status from a post by another genetic genealogist. I was getting excellent information when the DNA+Genealogy feature was up, so was curious if it was up for paid members. When it was up I was looking at my DNA cousins who had detailed genealogy posted. Central PA in the 1700s figured into multiple cousins genealogy, including one with ancestors in Shamokin PA specifically. All of the genealogies I was able to see showed these central PA ancestors moving on to Ohio and Indiana by 1800.

    Eurogenes K13 is one I have referenced as well. The admixture results for Eurogenes vs 23andMe are quite different. Not many people seem to have much confidence in 23andMe for admixture results though. Which is fair enough as they seem to be focused on health results.

  11. #11
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    Including my Sinkeys except not all went to IN. My Sinkeys went PA, OH, IA.

    I am a Tier I member, but I have not had time to really see how beneficial it is. I tried to make a Lazarus DNA sample of my father who was killed in a tractor accident in 1987 but it did not work. The 3D triangulation or whatever it is just is confusing to me. The other 2 features that triangulate and match members on chromosomes is what I want to understand better. I am hoping to spend this summer boning up on genetic genealogy. I know enough to allow me to give programs at DAR that impress the members, but reading the ISOGG Facebook page and GenomeMate keepe me humble.

    Techteach
    Grandmother: McLane, Green, Sinkey, McCartney, Potter, Butt, Huston, Ralston, Horner, Davis, DeMoss, French, Beaver, ...

    Grandfather: Carpenter, Swearingen, Tomlinson, McMurray, Mount, all from PA area. VA and KY areas - Talbot, Schollars, Gordon, Davis, Walker, Featherkile, Morton, Chiles, Grayson, Davis, Moore, Wright, Johns, Carr, Sisk, Isham, Clayton, Shelton

    Paternal is German, documented at Ellis Island.

  12. #12
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    TechTeach, the next time you login to GedMatch can you check and see if the 'GEDCOM + DNA matches' link is greyed out for you?

  13. #13
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    Yes, it is. I wish they would bring that back at some point. I am sure they plan to, but it has been a long time .

    Techteach
    Grandmother: McLane, Green, Sinkey, McCartney, Potter, Butt, Huston, Ralston, Horner, Davis, DeMoss, French, Beaver, ...

    Grandfather: Carpenter, Swearingen, Tomlinson, McMurray, Mount, all from PA area. VA and KY areas - Talbot, Schollars, Gordon, Davis, Walker, Featherkile, Morton, Chiles, Grayson, Davis, Moore, Wright, Johns, Carr, Sisk, Isham, Clayton, Shelton

    Paternal is German, documented at Ellis Island.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PappyDick View Post

    The person I match most comprehensively (especially on chr. 12, but a little bit on all of them but the Y, which she doesn't even have) who clearly has Native American ancestry is kit A483312.
    I checked my families samples against A483312. My sister and I share a segment with her on chromosome 13:

    Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
    13 101,210,315 104,287,540 5.0 490

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcSnelling View Post
    I checked my families samples against A483312. My sister and I share a segment with her on chromosome 13
    I missed this discussion, July was a very busy month for us.

    Did you lower the threshold so Gedmatch would show you short matches? I think they go as low as 2 cM, and you mentioned that this is a 5 cM match. My big match with Rachel Payne is 43 cM, but all the others (like, 20 of them) are between 2 and 3. They don't show up unless you insist...

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