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Thread: Waters from Newberry SC - Vann Cherokee Cabin

  1. #1
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    Waters from Newberry SC - Vann Cherokee Cabin

    My grandfather's Bayley/Miller line that ties to Bunch married a Coppock. That Nathan Coppock Jr was the son of Nathan Coppock Sr and Beulah May Waters born 1802 in Newberry SC. They are my only line out of SC.

    Have long wondered about the heritage of the Waters line. Thomas Waters born about 1765/1770 was her father, her mother is not recorded.

    Found this post about this Thomas Waters on a site about the Vann Cherokee Cabin. However, I don't believe the wife mentioned is my ancestor.


    This post is from 2012 - research done by Jerry I Clark...

    Avery Vann who was Clement's younger brother, was the father of Avery Vann who m. Peggy McSwain and was the progenitor of a prominant Cherokee family. It is unlikely that Avery [Jr?] was a son of Clement, since Clement told the Moravians that he had no children of his own (Clement thought about adopting his wife's [Wawli's] nephew George Vann).

    The James Vann (mother unidentified and described as the son of "the late" James Vann) ) who m. Elizabeth Eaton was the youngest son of James Vann and entered the Spring Place school on 5/10/1821, age ca.12. The Moravians very frequently mentioned Peggy Scott (Vann's widow), but never identified her as the mother of any children. Young James [Jr?] was born the same year his father was killed, suggesting that the child was illigitimate (by European standards).

    My desire has been to provide solid information about the Cherokee side of James Vann's family, so that others might provided the links to his white family. I want to emphasize that Wawli Vann (mother of Chief James Vann) was surnamed Vann and was a mixed-blood. She had a 1/2 blood brother named John Vann (father of George Vann), a 1/2 blood sister Sarah Hughes (Mrs. Thomas Waters, & identified as a 1/2 blood by U.S. indian agent Col. Benjamin Hawkins in 1796). Sarah's brother Charles Hughes, killed by the teenaged James Vann in a clan dispute, was almost certainly also a 1/2 blood. Another brother might have been James Hughes (father-in-law of Thomas Pettit, the 1/2 brother of Peggy McSwain). Other brothers of Wawli (and uncles of James Vann) were Richard Roe [Rowe] (described as a "1/2 Indian" by the Moravians) and David Roe [Rowe]. The Vanns, Hughes, Rowe (and Downing) Cherokee mixed-blood families were intertwined and interconnected for generations later.

    Wawli's mother was a 1/2 sister of Jenny Daughterty (daughter of early Indian trader Cornelius Daugherty). Wawli's mother (still alive in 1819 at the time of Wawli's baptism as "Mary Christiana") had children by white traders named John Vann, Bernard Hughes, and a man named Roe [perhaps a trader at Augusta, GA named John Rae]. She was called "old Mrs. Roe" with her sons David Roe and John Vann by Col. Hawkins in 1796; she may have been the granddaughter of Cherokee "Emperor" Motoy. The Colonial Records of Sourth Carolina Relating to Indian Affairs (the three "Indian Books") contain many references to the activities of white traders John Vann, Bernard Hughes, Robert Goudey, and Major John Downing (grandfather of Peggy McSwain), all operating near the frontier fortress "Ninety-Six" in SC and the Saluda River, in GA.

    James Clausee Vann, father of Ave Vann (who m. Betsy Scott, daughter of Richard Scott, the 1/2 brother of Peggy Scott) was the son of Sally Hughes and an unknown Vann. Sally Hughes was probably the sister of Bernard Hughes (Cherokee warrior 1777-1855 plus); both were likely children of either Charles or James Hughes, and thus both cousins of James Vann. In 1796 Col. Hawkins employed both Sally Hughes and Mrs. Sarah Waters as interpreters. He said that Mrs. Waters was the niece of the wife of Chief Sour Mush [he very likely was a brother of Wawli's mother & great uncle of James Vann).

    The man "Joseph David Vann", described many years later as a Chickamauga chief and brother of James Vann, is NOWHERE to be found in government or missionary records OF THE TIME. We know that both John Vann AND Joseph Vann were translators for colonial officials in the 18th century (I have a copy of a 1779 letter is which John Vann goes with 1 Cherokee war party, and Joseph goes in another direction with a different war party); there may have been other white men named Vann with Cherokee offspring. A possible senario might have an older brother of Wawli named Joseph? as a Cherokee chief (possibly the "1/2 breed chief Vann" who captured the Brown family at Nickajack in 1788 [OLD FRONTIERS, by John P. Brown, Kingsport, TN, 1938, p. 273), who had died before 1800. However, I believe that the Joseph Vann, father of Lamelia Vann, was in fact Josiah Vann (white cousin of James Vann) whose daughters Lamelia, Levenia, and Anna Sophia were students at Spring Place.
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by MarcSnelling View Post
    My grandfather's Bayley/Miller line that ties to Bunch married a Coppock. That Nathan Coppock Jr was the son of Nathan Coppock Sr and Beulah May Waters born 1802 in Newberry SC. They are my only line out of SC.

    Have long wondered about the heritage of the Waters line. Thomas Waters born about 1765/1770 was her father, her mother is not recorded.

    Found this post about this Thomas Waters on a site about the Vann Cherokee Cabin. However, I don't believe the wife mentioned is my ancestor.


    This post is from 2012 - research done by Jerry I Clark...

    Avery Vann who was Clement's younger brother, was the father of Avery Vann who m. Peggy McSwain and was the progenitor of a prominant Cherokee family. It is unlikely that Avery [Jr?] was a son of Clement, since Clement told the Moravians that he had no children of his own (Clement thought about adopting his wife's [Wawli's] nephew George Vann).

    The James Vann (mother unidentified and described as the son of "the late" James Vann) ) who m. Elizabeth Eaton was the youngest son of James Vann and entered the Spring Place school on 5/10/1821, age ca.12. The Moravians very frequently mentioned Peggy Scott (Vann's widow), but never identified her as the mother of any children. Young James [Jr?] was born the same year his father was killed, suggesting that the child was illigitimate (by European standards).

    My desire has been to provide solid information about the Cherokee side of James Vann's family, so that others might provided the links to his white family. I want to emphasize that Wawli Vann (mother of Chief James Vann) was surnamed Vann and was a mixed-blood. She had a 1/2 blood brother named John Vann (father of George Vann), a 1/2 blood sister Sarah Hughes (Mrs. Thomas Waters, & identified as a 1/2 blood by U.S. indian agent Col. Benjamin Hawkins in 1796). Sarah's brother Charles Hughes, killed by the teenaged James Vann in a clan dispute, was almost certainly also a 1/2 blood. Another brother might have been James Hughes (father-in-law of Thomas Pettit, the 1/2 brother of Peggy McSwain). Other brothers of Wawli (and uncles of James Vann) were Richard Roe [Rowe] (described as a "1/2 Indian" by the Moravians) and David Roe [Rowe]. The Vanns, Hughes, Rowe (and Downing) Cherokee mixed-blood families were intertwined and interconnected for generations later.

    Wawli's mother was a 1/2 sister of Jenny Daughterty (daughter of early Indian trader Cornelius Daugherty). Wawli's mother (still alive in 1819 at the time of Wawli's baptism as "Mary Christiana") had children by white traders named John Vann, Bernard Hughes, and a man named Roe [perhaps a trader at Augusta, GA named John Rae]. She was called "old Mrs. Roe" with her sons David Roe and John Vann by Col. Hawkins in 1796; she may have been the granddaughter of Cherokee "Emperor" Motoy. The Colonial Records of Sourth Carolina Relating to Indian Affairs (the three "Indian Books") contain many references to the activities of white traders John Vann, Bernard Hughes, Robert Goudey, and Major John Downing (grandfather of Peggy McSwain), all operating near the frontier fortress "Ninety-Six" in SC and the Saluda River, in GA.

    James Clausee Vann, father of Ave Vann (who m. Betsy Scott, daughter of Richard Scott, the 1/2 brother of Peggy Scott) was the son of Sally Hughes and an unknown Vann. Sally Hughes was probably the sister of Bernard Hughes (Cherokee warrior 1777-1855 plus); both were likely children of either Charles or James Hughes, and thus both cousins of James Vann. In 1796 Col. Hawkins employed both Sally Hughes and Mrs. Sarah Waters as interpreters. He said that Mrs. Waters was the niece of the wife of Chief Sour Mush [he very likely was a brother of Wawli's mother & great uncle of James Vann).

    The man "Joseph David Vann", described many years later as a Chickamauga chief and brother of James Vann, is NOWHERE to be found in government or missionary records OF THE TIME. We know that both John Vann AND Joseph Vann were translators for colonial officials in the 18th century (I have a copy of a 1779 letter is which John Vann goes with 1 Cherokee war party, and Joseph goes in another direction with a different war party); there may have been other white men named Vann with Cherokee offspring. A possible senario might have an older brother of Wawli named Joseph? as a Cherokee chief (possibly the "1/2 breed chief Vann" who captured the Brown family at Nickajack in 1788 [OLD FRONTIERS, by John P. Brown, Kingsport, TN, 1938, p. 273), who had died before 1800. However, I believe that the Joseph Vann, father of Lamelia Vann, was in fact Josiah Vann (white cousin of James Vann) whose daughters Lamelia, Levenia, and Anna Sophia were students at Spring Place.
    I am tracking the Waters family. Zilphia Thompson/William P Waters is in our Blevins line (Thompson side) and then Winifred Waters/William Dunn is the Col William Blevins wife's line. I also have a connection to another line of Waters via my Plummers and this might connect to SC??? Also have two atdna matches to your line of Waters but I have no idea if I have any direct connection to any of them but we do share atdna will all. I have not checked your line for Clovis but I have to see if I can get their id's. What you may find interesting is that in your line...Edward Waters married Grace O'Neal (likely Quaker) and their daughter Susannah married William Terrell 1656 New Kent -1743 Hanover. Children of interest so far Timothy married Mary Martin/dau of Zachariah...son Joel married a Elizabeth ? son Hezekiah married Phoebe Martin dau of John Martin/Rachel Hawkins. This could be a little off as I have not verified it and there seems to me to be a Martin mix up but I have to wonder if this does not fall into the admix groups.
    We know the Blevins/Waters above are admix as Zilphia's grandmother is Lydia Sizemore and this is the North Carolina Supreme court case where Waters wanted to may Zilphia as they already had children but he was deemed black and she was over the 4th generation of Indian blood so could marry white but not black. Wooten plays in here which is interesting in that it is also a Quaker name but I have not been able to connect her.
    I also have not done much on the Martins. William Blevins signed the Watauga Purchase and Joseph Vann was the Linquister (some say Jas. but the original can be found online at Tn archives and it is Jos. the elder IMO).

    Do you know how this Rachel Hawkins (John Martin) might be connected to Col Hawkins above? If there is a family connection, that might be how he knows of her NA heritage.
    Vivian Markley
    www.cottrellgenealogy.com

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian Markley View Post
    Also have two atdna matches to your line of Waters but I have no idea if I have any direct connection to any of them but we do share atdna will all.
    Are you seeing your match with some of my family's kits on Gedmatch? Interested to know the details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian Markley View Post
    I have not checked your line for Clovis but I have to see if I can get their id's. What you may find interesting is that in your line...Edward Waters married Grace O'Neal (likely Quaker) and their daughter Susannah married William Terrell 1656 New Kent -1743 Hanover.
    I'm not aware of Clovis in my line, but I wasn't aware of this Waters-O'Neal marriage until now. This is not a line I have researched much, I don't have the parents of Col William Waters b.1656 m. Mary Baynton in my tree. I see two version of this Waters-ONeal marriage on Ancesrtry; one with Edward b.1589 in England, the other b.1630 in VA. Do you know which is correct? There are several Quakers in my lines they marry into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian Markley View Post
    Do you know how this Rachel Hawkins (John Martin) might be connected to Col Hawkins above? If there is a family connection, that might be how he knows of her NA heritage.
    Don't know, but her 1714 birthdate makes her a possible sibling of Philemon Hawkins b.1717, and daughter of Philemon Hawkins 1690-1725.
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  4. #4
    I have no idea of who your Gedmatch kits would be. Mine is M610654 and the Clovis is F999919. When looking for matches this far back in time we use setting of 500/1 (FF allows cM) so why not get as much data as possible. We have so many people that match at these settings that we have good trees for that we know it works and is not just "noise". Lots of Quakers so good documentation. The Clovis we go lower yet 200/1. The experts did not expect to get anybody but the pure dna is only about 400-500 years old but the frozen Clovis mummy was 12500 years old. I has changed how some of the experts are now looking at this and those who want to prove their NA blood started at 700 and lowered it by 100 till they started getting matches themselves. I just do the 200/1 because we will need the smaller segments to sort the matches once we can tie them to any names. So far I match Bushyhead which might be that John Stuart is my next line for my Newberry SC Joseph Stewart/Stuart. This line married into the Buffingtons before coming to Ohio along with the rest of those Quakers and I have been able to document the Buffingtons and Harlans as they married Cherokee.

    But the list of matches includes descendants of Kingfisher, Benge, Redbird Brock and Bluejacket. These are just from memory which goes back to Moytoy but so far it seems he was adopted and likely a more Northern birth. Most of these have strong Maryland roots very early on or at least coastal Va.

    My grandson graduated tonight so I will be a little busy or a little bored this weekend so I will look at your surnames but if you have any Gedmatch Id that I can check let me know. I can give you my email if you do not want to post in the forum. I see you have Bunch and we have finally feel that William Blevins did marry Mary Bunch as our dna matches every Bunch descendant we have found no matter what the surname is. The other line that does surprise me is that I am find a lot of Wells descendants and they all are showing Clovis matches so this would be very early Md as Well. This group ends up in SC as Quakers but my side does not seem to have ever been in the church. My Wells is George Wells/Susannah Swanson (becomes Blevins but she was married to James Ward when my Nathan Ward was born) while his brother is Joseph Well married sister Margaret Swanson (the are Quaker in Orange Co Nc and then SC) This line then goes back on the mothers side to Plummer and Thomas Stockett/Mary Wells>Richard Wells 1609 /Francis White. That gives us all who descend in this line with two proven Ydna Haplo's on Wells. I think there has to be NA before the Swanson marriages about 1725 Anne Arundel, Md
    Vivian Markley
    www.cottrellgenealogy.com

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian Markley View Post
    I have no idea of who your Gedmatch kits would be. Mine is M610654 and the Clovis is F999919.
    Ok sorry, I misunderstood. I compared your kit to me, my sister, my mother and uncle. Nothing at 7cm, but when I lower it to 5cm you match me (M223631) on 5.1cm of chr 3 and my uncle 5.1cm on chr 15. Seeing no match at all to my mother or sister.

    On the Clovis sample the biggest matches are 3-4cm for my mother, uncle, and I, biggest I could find is my sister on 5.1cm of chr 17.

    Not sure what that means.
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  6. #6
    Those are some healthy matches in my book. I have almost all chiefs on the Segment 17. I do think that must be some strong dna that just keeps repeating. It appears that the segments divide by an average of 50% with each generation but when the get to a certain size (the experts have some up with the idea but not the number) they are passed on whole or dropped completely. They also recombine so they can then start to increase. I have a 14cM match with a Hornbeck but he is a double Hornbeck so got a double chance to retain it. Our match goes all the way back to the 1600 and so far I have not found anyone else that we share but it could be on one of my dead ends.

    What is the segment range on your sister's #17? I can then tell you if it is match a particular chief or is the Water or Bunch. It could easily be more than one as I think more of these chiefs originate in the Northern range than most people think.

    I have three23,000000-26,000000/27,000000-28,00000 and the most matches are on 54,000000-56000000. I know I have Bunch/Blevins/Cottrell/Stuart matches on this segment. I am confident that at least one of the Bunch earliest generations had Native American wives but the best I think we will ever do is maybe find a tribe by location.

    I will work on the rest of those tomorrow and put you all in the database. Have you tried Genomemate? I don't know if it works on Mac but it is a lifesaver of a program and I have built just a Clovis database and it is just a copy/paste function.
    Vivian Markley
    www.cottrellgenealogy.com

  7. #7
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    I hadn't heard about GenomeMate before. I have it installed now and am importing my 23andMe/Ancestry/Gedmatch data into it. Billahuk for that tip!

    These are the Chr. 17 matches from my sister to Clovis sample, it appears that two of them are in your range:

    17 14185116 15227916 5.1 320
    17 23120724 25596486 1.2 243
    17 46224757 47672275 1.7 226
    17 53249516 56824837 3.3 337
    17 58015954 60690413 2.3 313
    17 67315325 68135875 1.8 205
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  8. #8
    Once you have your 23&me in there, you can then just look at the Clovis matches and cross reference them. I then set up a "New Database" and called it Clovis and put in all the Clovis matches. I have found that you can have multiple GenomeMate open at one time. I like to do this for easier cross reference. I hate to type so I did not put in a lot of other info into the individual screen but if you add the Http address of their tree, you can click tree and it just opens Great time saver. I also put in their email address.

    23&me does not reveal email address like Family Finder but if you have an email...on Gedmatch "User info" you can enter email and you can find out if someone is there. I do this with people that I have corresponded with to find new matches. If they have a tree on Gedmatch, they have recently added a link direct to the tree. Click on profile and change to about 14 generations and you will get the whole tree. If the surnames do not show up (I have no idea why this happens) you can click on the eldest generation and click Descendants and it will give you a direct line down and you can find all the wives and then follow them back to their pedigree. It is cumbersome but I guess better than nothing. Someone also shared with me that trees can often be found on Ancestry by using the email address and deleting the @.... and it is often the user name.
    Vivian Markley
    www.cottrellgenealogy.com

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian Markley View Post
    My grandson graduated tonight so I will be a little busy or a little bored this weekend so I will look at your surnames but if you have any Gedmatch Id that I can check let me know. I can give you my email if you do not want to post in the forum. I see you have Bunch and we have finally feel that William Blevins did marry Mary Bunch as our dna matches every Bunch descendant we have found no matter what the surname is. The other line that does surprise me is that I am find a lot of Wells descendants and they all are showing Clovis matches so this would be very early Md as Well. This group ends up in SC as Quakers but my side does not seem to have ever been in the church. My Wells is George Wells/Susannah Swanson (becomes Blevins but she was married to James Ward when my Nathan Ward was born) while his brother is Joseph Well married sister Margaret Swanson (the are Quaker in Orange Co Nc and then SC) This line then goes back on the mothers side to Plummer and Thomas Stockett/Mary Wells>Richard Wells 1609 /Francis White. That gives us all who descend in this line with two proven Ydna Haplo's on Wells. I think there has to be NA before the Swanson marriages about 1725 Anne Arundel, Md

    My mother just discovered our line of Nancy Ann Linthicum/Linthicam Irwin my 4x g-grandmother that was previously a brick wall. I am seeing the MD connection more now. She is the g-grandaughter of Sarah Stockett 1712-1807 Anne Arundel MD and Joseph Mayo 1707-1790 on her father, Thomas Linthicum's line. Her mother was Rebecca Tucker b. abt 1770 MD - but can't trace that line further.

    I'm starting to find some connections using GenomeMate and imported data. The genealogy for people with some common DNA segments all trace back to names/dates here. Yet I cannot find a common ancestor. It most be from unrecorded female ancestors.

  10. #10
    Stockett is my Wells line...Thomas Stockett 1667/Mary Wells, the Elizabeth married Thomas Plummer. This is just a little before your Sarah Stockett 1712 but I have not followed them all the way down. Would bet it is the same family.
    Vivian Markley
    www.cottrellgenealogy.com

  11. #11
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    Yes, you are right. I found the same ancestors following it back.

    Sarah Stockett is the granddaughter of Mary Wells and Thomas Stockett on her father's side. Her mother is Demaris Welch 1689-1779. Demaris Welch's parents are listed as John Welch and Mary Damaris Wyatt

    I noticed in some of the trees that John Welch/Welsh b.1622 has his birthplace listed as "Ireland or Anne Arundel MD, Colonial America or Peru per DNA"

  12. #12
    I wonder if this is connected to Molly Welch married Edward Wilkerson. I have her father as James Welch 1700 and Quatsi but that is not my original research but I do know that Molly's descendants were admitted to the Cherokee tribe via their ECA's, approved. One married into my Blevins. I now have five Emory descendants that match me on Clovis atdna..Fields, Due and Hembree so I have two possibilities. One that my Joseph Stewart 1745 of Newberry SC is the son of Indian Agent John Stewart and a descendant of Ludovic Grant and the Long Hair maiden (He had a son Bushyhead by Susannah Emory> Susannah Grant/Robert Emory or one of the "cousins" that carry their dna or that my Joseph 1745 married a daughter out of this group. I think this is going to be as close as I will ever get to explain all these matches and I have not added Rogers, etc. Interesting note is that Maiden from Long Hair Clan was not a Cherokee but become the grandmother of most that were registered but she is most likely adopted as that was the clan of adoptees. I think she was most likely Algonquin by the matches that I am finding.
    Vivian Markley
    www.cottrellgenealogy.com

  13. #13
    This is what I have on my Vann line through many years of research with various Cherokee/Shawnee genealogists.

    First Generation Vann Family



    William Vann (Vaus) (1660) was born in either Scotland or Ireland. A Cherokee genealogist identified him as belonging to the Sottish Patrick Vaus family. I have lost touch with the genealogist, sadly, and do not have an established concrete line. I think he "may" have been a son/grandson of John I Vaus Vann, born 1616 in Wigtownshire, Scotland. He married an Elizabeth Shaw,
    of Donegal, Ireland.
    The story goes that one Vaus who helped Scotland in their war of Independence during the Jacobite Wars (Battle of Bannockburn). The family name was mutilated in order to hide the family connection to the failed rebellion, and later accidentally misspelled when William Vann, or his father, arrived in The Virginia Colony. The spelling of VANN is unique to the Cherokee Vanns in the US


    Anyway, William came to America and married a Shawano, Sarah. She is possibly the daughter of Hokoleskwa Opechan-Cornstalk Opechan & Nonoma of The Shawnee Cornstalk . I have read that William's adopted name may have been "Hokoleskwa Cornstalk " Vann.

    William and Sarah "Sukey Occaneechi Tikami" the Shawano had at least 6 known children:


    1. Ann (my ancestor) Vann was born 1689 and married John Jesse II Langston.


    2. John Edward "Ned" U Wa Ni (1690) (a trader) Vann married 3 times.
    He married sisters, Charity and Mary Barnes, daughters of Richard IV Shawnee Barnes and Tikami Swan Wapehti (April) Hop Cornstalk.
    He fathered ten children with Mary and two with Charity (Alsey Anna Mary and Edith Vann).
    He then took another wife, Mary Ani kowi Deer Clan King, and had three more sons, William, Edward & King Vann.
    Mary Barnes & Ned's children were: Ann, John, Sarah, Ned II, Elizabeth, Chief John Joseph, Mary, James Clement, Jesse & Thomas.


    3. Joseph Vann, born 1691, had 8 children, wife unknown.
    Mary, Frederick, Judy, Jacob, George, Dorcas, Elizabeth & Ann.


    4. Sarah Vann, born 1693 married an unknown Hogh.


    5. William II Vann was born in 1698.


    6. Elizabeth Vann was born in 1706, and married Charles King. **Note, Mary Anikowi Deer Clan King, wife of Ned, was likely Charles' sister, but unproven.







    Chief John Joseph Vann married Wa-Wli Mary Christeana Polly Vann, his niece. She was the daughter of his brother, Trader John Vann and Sister Raven Elizabeth Ani Gatagewi Dougherty, (daughter of Cornelius Dougherty and Peggy A--nu-we-gi Moytoy).


    With Wa-Wli Mary Christeana Polly Vann, he fathered Jesse, Joseph David, John Issac, Chief James Clement, Avery (married Margaret McSwain and Sarah Godagewi Hughes), Ned, Ann, Jennie and Nancy.
    He became Chief of Tellico in Tennessee.
    Chief John Joseph was accidently shot and killed, by his son, "Crazy James".
    Chief John Jospeh also married Agnes Weatherford and fathered Keziah Vann.


    Joseph David Vann married Sally Hughes, the grand daughter of Indian Trader Bernard Hughes and
    Sister Raven Elizabeth Ani Gatagewi Dougherty, who also married Trader John Vann. Their son James, was her father, who was married to Salle Ani-GA-Gage-WI Bird Clan Teague.
    Benard's other daughter, Sarah, married Thomas Waters.

    Benard was likely a grandson of Captain John Hughes and Nicketti Powhatan. Nicketti would have been Sarah the Shawano's cousin.


    James Clausee Vann was the son of Sally Hughes & Joseph David Vann.
    Wanda Guiding Wolf Nelson

    Paternal : Austin, Bates,Beeler, Frederick, Kennedy,Keith, Hughes,Lamb, Pickens, Proctor, Qualls, Rogers, Stares/Steers, Yancey

    Maternal: Bragg, Henderson, Hughes, Keith, Lambert, Langston,Prince,Newport, Seay, Scott, Thornton, Vann, Wingo, Wren

  14. #14
    Do you have anyone who has done the Atdna testing? I am keeping a database using Clovis Native American dna as the control so it takes away the European connections and becomes neutral.

    The Vann's would then been on the side of the Jacobites if they lost and that would make them connected to Ludovic Grant and Indian Agent John Stuart's father Baillie Stuart during the war. That could prove significant.

    Also I noticed your Bates. I am currently working on two Bates lines, so I wondering what you line might be like. John Bunch and Mary Temperance Bates Quaker are in the admix communities and I am now trying to prove through dna results that Susannah Bates/Stephen Tarlleton would have been her aunt. A sister of Susannah's would be Alse who married William Deane.
    Vivian Markley
    www.cottrellgenealogy.com

  15. #15
    At this moment, I am unaware of anyone who has done any DNA testing. There are many Vann cousins I haven't met yet

    I don't have any information on my William Bates, other than he lived in Lincoln County TN before moving to Marion County AL. He married Frances "Fanny" Proctor and they raised several children. William was born about 1790 I believe.
    No one has ever proved his parentage, although some try to link him to Samuel Bates. I don't think that's true.

    I do know that two of Fanny's brothers married grand daughters of Chief Blackfox. William Bates was definitely acquainted with the Proctors in Lincoln County, because they were listed in records as overseers of a road there.

    William is my brick wall. I believe there is Indian in his line, somewhere. I've got a photo of my great grandmother and she def has the look. She was William's great grand daughter.

    I wish I could find William's parents. Maybe one day.
    Wanda Guiding Wolf Nelson

    Paternal : Austin, Bates,Beeler, Frederick, Kennedy,Keith, Hughes,Lamb, Pickens, Proctor, Qualls, Rogers, Stares/Steers, Yancey

    Maternal: Bragg, Henderson, Hughes, Keith, Lambert, Langston,Prince,Newport, Seay, Scott, Thornton, Vann, Wingo, Wren

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