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Thread: Bunch family ties to the Tuscarora Indian Woods

  1. #1
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    Bunch family ties to the Tuscarora Indian Woods

    Been a while since I posted anything here. It took some DNA testing to push me in the right direction. A surprise was that Scott Preston Collins is a DNA match that showed on my GEDmatch list.

    The brick wall that the testing helped resolve was with the Moore family of Bertie Co. I traced them to a John Moore but records seemed scarce. DNA testing revealed matches to the Bunch and associated families. Turns out that John Moore married Prudence Holder, granddaughter of Susanna Bunch and her first husband Thomas Holder, which also explained the Collins connection.

    These people were considered Saponi that were absorbed by the Tuscarora.

  2. #2
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    Tomehawl, would you be willing to share your GedMAtch kit #? I'm M223631.
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcSnelling View Post
    Tomehawl, would you be willing to share your GedMAtch kit #? I'm M223631.
    Yes, sorry it took so long. I am M447469

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    We have pretty good numbers for the distance.

  5. #5
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    I did one-one compares with my family members. The threshold I typically use is 1cM, 500SNP. At that level there are matches - with my uncle having the largest matches. The match on chromosome 4 you also share with my mother M103622. I don't see DNA matches to other relatives on my grandmother's side. So the connection seems more likely to be on my Drybread grandfather's side. (which as you can see by my surname list is the side with Bunch connections)


    Comparing Kit M026223 (Craig Drybread) and M447469 (Thomas Robbins)

    Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 500 SNPs
    Mismatch-bunching Limit = 250 SNPs
    Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM


    Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
    2 204,930,372 208,313,839 4.7 611
    4 120,119,112 124,033,758 2.6 608
    9 36,587 1,884,807 4.9 694
    11 81,421,155 86,090,330 2.9 820
    Largest segment = 4.9 cM
    Total of segments > 1 cM = 15.1 cM
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  6. #6
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    I do have one other relative who has tested DNA from my Drybread side. You have a match to her as well:


    Comparing Kit A303017 (Mary Tobey) and M447469 (Thomas Robbins)

    Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 500 SNPs
    Mismatch-bunching Limit = 250 SNPs
    Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM


    Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
    2 85,786,878 101,409,644 5.7 543
    Largest segment = 5.7 cM
    Total of segments > 1 cM = 5.7 cM
    1 matching segments
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  7. #7
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    cousins

    I guess that means we are cousins. I've never heard of Drybread. My father's sidw has Bunch, Cotton, and a couple othhers you list fof your grandpa. Kitchen, Cotton, Bunch, etc. Csn be found with the Tuscarora groups.


    My mother's kit is M523845 and shows NA. Been trying to figure her Na out and now she has a match with my wife's kit, M318110, my wife is Cherokee and Cheraw

  8. #8
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    Hey cuz! This is where the Cotton and Kitchen ancestors figure into my tree. The Mary Dyer in this tree is the daughter of Quaker martyr Marie Barrett Dyer. The Cotton's and Kitchen's came from Loudoun VA. Henry Smith Cotton passed near Bardstown KY. These lines were in Indiana by the 1830s. Mary Harrell, Henry Smith Cotton's wife is likely of mixed descent judging by family histories of cousins I've connected with.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Drybread is an uncommon name. Everyone I know with that name is descended from George Drybread b.1753 Westmoreland PA. It is a literal translation of Trockenbrodt: Trocken=dry Brodt=bread. The Druckenbrod's in PA are related as well. It's a very German line (Bavarian). My grandfather's dad, Carl Drybread 1893-1971 was the last generation to still speak German at home. There is a Richard Druckenbrod who was/is president of the PA German Society.

    I'll run some more compares and see if I can narrow it down some more.
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  9. #9
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    I notice your mother and wife also match my cousin on the Drybread line (A303017). Where she has the 5.7cM match to you on chromosome 2 she has a 6.2cM match to your mother. She does not descend from the same Cotton-Kitchen line though (to the best of my knowledge - I don't know the parts of her tree we don't share). Our common ancestors are Seneca Drybread 1869-1906 and Lizzie Nay 1873-1938 (2nd cousin once removed to me.) Your wife has a different 6.9cM match to her on chromosome 15.

    My mother and uncle have the same 5.2cM match to your wife on chromosome 11. Those are the only matches I see from her to my family group at normal settings.

    Your mother also has a 5.7 match to
    M871780 - Seeker - here on SaponiTown. We strongly suspect we are cousins to her through the Harrell line I mentioned above, and have posted about in other threads.

    My mother also shows a 7.4cM X chromosome match to your mother. Since X is not passed on any line with two consecutive male ancestors - this match cannot be through the Drybread line itself. It seems to point to my Drybread grandfather's mother - Maud Marshall 1897-1919 - she is the direct descendant of the Cotton, Kitchen, Harrell lines I mentioned.
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcSnelling View Post
    I notice your mother and wife also match my cousin on the Drybread line (A303017). Where she has the 5.7cM match to you on chromosome 2 she has a 6.2cM match to your mother. She does not descend from the same Cotton-Kitchen line though (to the best of my knowledge - I don't know the parts of her tree we don't share). Our common ancestors are Seneca Drybread 1869-1906 and Lizzie Nay 1873-1938 (2nd cousin once removed to me.) Your wife has a different 6.9cM match to her on chromosome 15.

    My mother and uncle have the same 5.2cM match to your wife on chromosome 11. Those are the only matches I see from her to my family group at normal settings.

    Your mother also has a 5.7 match to
    M871780 - Seeker - here on SaponiTown. We strongly suspect we are cousins to her through the Harrell line I mentioned above, and have posted about in other threads.

    My mother also shows a 7.4cM X chromosome match to your mother. Since X is not passed on any line with two consecutive male ancestors - this match cannot be through the Drybread line itself. It seems to point to my Drybread grandfather's mother - Maud Marshall 1897-1919 - she is the direct descendant of the Cotton, Kitchen, Harrell lines I mentioned.
    This is pretty cool. My wife is Cherokee and Cheraw and at first suspected mom to be Cherokee, but leaning harder toward the Saponi. But with a Marshal in play, it could go either way after seeing the extent of the Marshall family tree.

    My Cotton on dad's side were with the Benton, Epaphroditus and children. Our "founding father" that reorganized the Southern Band Tuscarora was a Cotton and i believe my cousin. I Have some Harrell connections too. All this in Chowan, Gates, Bertie area. There was a large group of mix Saponi and Tuscarora that migrated to Ohio and Indiana. Many of their descendants formed the Lost Creek Settlement. Is this some of your group?

  11. #11
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    I'm not aware of any specific Tuscarora descent in my lines. Some lines have oral history of unspecified Native ancestry from VA/NC though. So can't say for certain. Judging by DNA it seemed to me that some of these unspecified connections were Powhatan - specifically the Rolfe's. I'm not aware of an OH/IN Lost Creek. My ancestors were part of the Lost Creek Quakers that migrated from Guilford County NC to Jefferson County TN - Routh and Redfearn. Is this part of what you are referencing? The Underground Railroad linked locations like Lost Creek TN, with OH, IN and other places according to oral history in Quaker lines.
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

  12. #12
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    The Lost Creek genealogy can be found at http://www.lost-creek.org/genealogy/surnames.php and has many cousin connections to Saponi and Tuscarora in NC.

    I am related to many connections on the English side to the Pocahontus descendants but unaware of a connection by blood to her, but have suspicions. I had a group tell me I shared a segment wth them on ch 2 that was identified as Chickahominy though.

    Is Drybread a Saponi name?

  13. #13
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    Oh yeah, Marilyn's book talks about the Tuscarora taking in people from when the Pohantan confederacy broke apart. Marilyn is our tribal chair and Bear Clan Mother.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomehawk View Post
    The Lost Creek genealogy can be found at http://www.lost-creek.org/genealogy/surnames.php and has many cousin connections to Saponi and Tuscarora in NC.

    I am related to many connections on the English side to the Pocahontus descendants but unaware of a connection by blood to her, but have suspicions. I had a group tell me I shared a segment wth them on ch 2 that was identified as Chickahominy though.

    Is Drybread a Saponi name?
    That Lost Creek info was interesting to learn about. I was not aware of the Indiana Lost Creek. It seems there are a lot of names that are the same in NC and IN. That line of the Underground Railroad was already going by 1820 if not earlier. There are a lot of parallels I see between Greensfork Township Randolph County IN and Lost Creek Township Vigo County IN. There are a lot of versions of why people from Indiana are called Hoosiers. To me it has meaning like 'who's your daddy?' All these mixed families obscuring identity to avoid all the unjust laws of the land. Recently I read Walt Whitman and how he called Abraham Lincoln a Hoosier Michelangelo. I didn't even know he grew up in Indiana.

    Drybread is not a Saponi name per se. Certainly my grandfather was of Saponi descent but I'm not certain how far back it goes. George Drybread b1753 Westmoreland PA is the source of the whole line. His mother is unknown. There are multiple ancestors named Seneca Drybread and the family used to visit Conesus Lake (Seneca territory) on a regular basis. I've wondered if this is because of a blood connection to the Seneca -or Saponi who joined the Seneca, or just out of respect. The year the modern 'Seneca Nation of Indians' was formed is when the first Seneca Drybread was named - 1848. His father was William Hamilton Drybread b 1799 in Indiana Territory. Before he passed in his 80s there was an article about him calling him 'The Oldest Hoosier'.

    Seneca Smith Drybread's nephew Seneca Newton Drybread 1869-1906 was my grandfather's grandfather. The Drybread line is I2a2
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

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