Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Montani semper liberi (A Cohee in the Eastern World)

  1. #1

    Montani semper liberi (A Cohee in the Eastern World)

    Well, having read "The Other Blackfoot" a second time armed with a better idea of my own family's circuitous movement, I come around finally to the question of whether I am descended from "Saponis." My Vines lineage originates in Amherst County, VA @ 1750 (while it was still Albemarle, actually) although I am not sure as to where, exactly. My great, great, great, great grandmother was an Anna Smith of presumably the same area--one of apparently two wives that grandpa Vines was having children by. I can only infer her genes based on the date of my great, great, great grandfather's birth.

    Interestingly, it seems that said sire, Thomas, was baptized when he was five--the Vineses have traditionally been Methodist, whether he was baptized by a Methodist is questionable--which indicates evangelization, i.e., when he was born, neither Thomas nor his parents were in the Church. There seems to have been some intercourse with Augusta County (and, to put it crudely, in Augusta County, where my great, great, great granddad was born; Thomas apparently a bigamist, not merely a philanderer)

    Anyhoo, although the Vineses remained in Amherst/Rockbridge until the early 1830s, they ultimately packed up and moved to Monroe/Mercer Counties in soon to be West Virginia. Montani semper liberi. They--being my grandfathers--married Dunsmores (children of Wanstaffs) and Whites (my great grandmother). Silas Smith Vines (again, another indicator that Anna Smith was a momma) was listed at his death in 1886 as both "white" and "free colored."

    A picture of his son, Otie Wilder "Spain" Vines reveals a man of dark, reddish complexion, high cheekbones, monstrously Indian-like nose (which I have) not to mention an agile wit (which I also would like to think I have). His--Spain's--nephew, my uncle (by marriage, cousin by birth), had those bones and black, black hair. My grandmother, Estella, had the same cheekbones, but I have never seen a color picture of her and she died before I was born. My mother looked like a little "papoose" when she was a baby: There is a picture of her with some of her contemporary nieces and nephews (she, like I, was the baby, way younger than the oldest) and they are extremely pale and Irish looking. My mother is, oh, nearly the color of a football, it seems, albeit with a copperish glow and has straight, black hair. She would later always have her hair permed, but it was black way up until she was in her late fifties. She always tanned darkly. All of us have brown eyes and big noses. My late brother had the black hair. I have "trace" to "moderately" shoveled maxillary incisors. They lean toward being "semishoveled" by my own measurement and those of a dental hygenist. Suggestive, well, actually about 90% indicative of Indian ancestry. That or Chinese. I say nothing about my inabiity to handle the ole "firewater, " either.

    My mother would have, did, disavow any "colored" blood. She would often admit to some sort of "Jewish" ancestry. Ironically, there may be--Saphardic, through a Portuguese mulatto named Maderas--but much more remote than Silas Vines. Besides, Silas had no lineage from Mr. Maderas, so why was he "colored"? My family's reticence, perhaps ignorance, and my mother's reluctance to associate or identify with the WV kin--her father mysteriously moved down to Augusta, VA @ 1909, presumably to get away from King Coal-raise flags, or is it wishful thinking?

    What started as a simple inquiry into Siouan migration patterns to West Virginia and some of the associated names became a soliloquy on alienation. Hmm... race and alienation, who'd a thunk it?
    Jim Wood

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    271
    Jimbo,
    The real question is, Why was Silas "listed" as both "white" and "Free Colored"?

    CoheeLady

  3. #3

    Duplicity In Death Certificate

    I have questioned whether Silas' listing as both "white" and "free colored" was an accident. There are, however, three or four more so treated on the same page (I didn't search the book). Although the "Sex" column is unchecked, there is an entry blank separating the "Sex" column from the "Race" column which tends to mitigate the dual categorization from being a mistake, at least one that would have been repeated several more times. I cannot remember if any such entries preceded his, either. They won't let you photocopy the Death Register, so you have to get an official Certificate.

    Of note is that, with at least one other individual, "White" and "Colored, Slave" were both ticked off, which makes me wonder if "White"/"Free Colored" indicated some sort of Indian mulatto where "White"/"Colored Slave" indicated an African mulatto in the mind of whoever was filling out the book.

    We have all read of how census enumerators, etc., had difficulty in determining where individuals fit in--if you were an Indian, you were "black". Could it be either a case of A) an official, i.e., the Clerk of Court being pressured to report truthfully on race and not being able to assert either "White" or "Black," he made up his own system; or, B.) an official or underling not wanting to label folks who were Indians as "White" out of bigotry or "Black" out of sympathy? Who knows? Why there would be any concerted effort at accuracy in 1886 is another question. Maybe the scribe who entered all of the aforesaid data was drunk!

    I called up a lady from the Mercer County Historical Society and she immediately stated that the dual entry indicates that Silas was an Indian: "That would be my guess," she said. She also stated that there were a "lot of Indians" out where my grandfather is buried (The Sweeney-Brammer cemetery on Egeria Rd. at Odd, over on the western side of Flat Top). She promises to get back to me as soon as she has jawed it over with other folks from the Historical Society. Of course, barring some corroboration, what they report is merely opinion.

    Of further interest to me is my kinship with prominent Beckley-ites the Hedrickses Not only were the Hedricks descended from the same Vines line (a generation earlier than Silas), they also married some Fink cousins. The Hedrickses were/are very dark of complexion, hair, etc. Photos and personal testimony relay that. The son of one Hedrick who is buried in the same cemetery as Silas and my Fink great-grandad was actually my wife's pediatrician. She describes him as having features not unlike her father's, who was 1/4 Shawnee?/Cherokee?

    For some reason, my mother didn't not directly disavow kinship with the Hedrickses or other WV kin, but never exactly made it a prime topic. It's true we all come from the same bastard grandfather and WV Delegate (born of his parents some 20 years before they actually married, his father siring approximately 20 kids through at least 3 women). The prodigious papa is actually buried right there with Silas and his "grandson-in-law" Bird Lester Fink (my great grandad). If I have lost anyone, it's no wonder. Quite convoluted. More so because the one common grandmother was a Jane Thompson (Cherokee Thompson, quien sabe?) and anyone familiar with SouthWest Virginia/West Virginia knows that you can't spit without offending a Thompson. It's odd that she was her own head of household @ 1820 (at the age of 20/21) and was able to have five or six children by my great, great, great grandfather while he was married to another woman. I'll likely never fgure how who she really was and where she came from.
    Jim Wood

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    271

    Re: Vines Family

    Jim,
    I am unable to email you through this site, as I wanted to give you some information regarding the Vines & Smith family. I will have more to share tomorrow. My mother is a genealogist so I called her for help. She looked up your family in a few books she has, below you will find the info. she provided.

    1) Regarding the Smith name: Margaret Smith (of Nelson County) married Washington Cash. One of their children was named Peach Cash he was born in Rockbridge County,Va. in 1860. He died in Vesuvius, & was buried at Shawnee Hill in 1914.

    2) This info. is from the Rockbridge County Death Register: Mrs. Mary Vines born 1762 in Orange County, Va. (Her maiden name is Hill) She died in 1862 in Rockbridge County. *Only the last name of her father (Hill) is noted, nothing more.

    3) Mrs. Jane Harbarger born in Nelson Co., Va., her parents were Thomas & Betsy Vines. Jane died Dec. 1854 in Rockbridge County. Her husband was Abraham Harbarger. Jane's death was reported by her grandson, Jacob Harbarger.

    It seems that the Vines were from New Kent County area, prior to 1750. They show up in the book Cavaliers & Pioneers. I will look at the book tomorrow & fill you in. By the way a few of my Cash ancestors also moved to Monroe/Mercer County, West Virginia.
    Sincerely,
    CoheeLady

  5. #5

    Thank you

    Very kindly of you. I saw the one bit of data concerning Mary Hill Vines yesterday myself--in the Rockbridge death register. She is a "suspicious" character in the lineage, but I am not sure as to her direct bearing: Given the date of the birth of Silas' father John Silas, Anna Smith may more likely have been the mother. The reporter was a Gregory (couldn't make out first name), which name appears in my line (a grandmother). The Smith/Cash correlation is interesting. And illuminating. There is a tendency to "group up." Most of the records are too recent to easily find someone whom I suspect was rarely considered in the first place.

    Also of interest is my great x4 granddad's second (third?) marriage in 1855 to a Sallie Anne Lewis Green. She was 21, he was 59! The Rockbridge register gives Thomas Vines as his father, with mother unknown, well not given. Greens are almost always Indian, based upon what I have seen. I as well knew a boy in my class who came from Buena Vista named Green. As I remember, he was strongly Indian in appearance, right down to hair and complexion. Again, too late to apply to me personally, but suggestive of the tendency to be "tribal." If I could only see a few more pictures, etc. I may turn to my aunt for info (she is the widow of one of Silas' great-great grandsons, who also looked liked an Indian).

    I certainly do appreciate your help.
    Jim Wood

  6. #6

    Maderas

    Jimbo, in your post you mentioned "My mother would have, did, disavow any "colored" blood. She would often admit to some sort of "Jewish" ancestry. Ironically, there may be--Saphardic, through a Portuguese mulatto named Maderas--but much more remote than Silas Vines. "

    I need to find out more information about this Maderas. Can you tell me where you found info on him? What time period was this? 1800's 1700's? I would appreciate any assistance.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    1,835
    Brian,
    Welcome to the forum. The posting you replied to is somewhat old. Perhaps you can click on the private email feature and ask Jimbo your question directly, in the event that he fails to see your question.

    Techteach

  8. #8
    Thanks, It doesn't appear he has pvt e-mail listed. It was a just a hopeful shot knowing how old the post was.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Altus, Oklahoma, U. S. A.
    Posts
    1,100
    Jim,

    You mention Rockbridge, Augusta, Amherts Counties -- my Wood/Woods, Hamilton's, and apparently (not proven yet) Richey's came from that region too. All had left by about 1800 though.

    Vance

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada -unceded Algonquin territory
    Posts
    730
    Blog Entries
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Of further interest to me is my kinship with prominent Beckley-ites the Hedrickses Not only were the Hedricks descended from the same Vines line (a generation earlier than Silas), they also married some Fink cousins. The Hedrickses were/are very dark of complexion, hair, etc. Photos and personal testimony relay that. The son of one Hedrick who is buried in the same cemetery as Silas and my Fink great-grandad was actually my wife's pediatrician. She describes him as having features not unlike her father's, who was 1/4 Shawnee?/Cherokee?
    Searching our DNA cousin links I found a White cousin from Randolph Co Indiana whose Miller line connects to ours in Pendleton Co WV. Our Miller's left WV for IN sometime around the 1830s. Isaac Taylor Miller I believe is 1st cousin 1x removed to Mary Ann Miller, my 4th great-grandmother born in Pendelton WV 1807. Isaac Miller's mother is Susannah Hedrick.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	susannah_hedrick.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	27.1 KB 
ID:	1084 Susannah Hedrick 1798-1879

    The surnames with mixed history that are in our line and our White cousin's line include Bayley/Bailey, Miller, White, Hunt and Brown. The Hunts I believe to be descendants of ancestors who were on Col William Eaton's land in Granville County mid-1700s. The other lines are ones with oral history form multiple sources. The Baileys connect to the Dillon's WV - documented by Brenda Collins Dillon. Our White cousin matches several Indiana Jones-Smith cousins in our line. Green and Hamilton surnames mentioned in this thread are also connected to these lines in our tree.
    GrandMother - Potter, Jones, Smith, Gates, Walburn, Good, Routh, Redfern, Brower, Bechtel, Buck, Wiley, Beeler, Kyger, Heaton, Stainbrook, Ihinger, McColley, Thomas, Franklin, Warden, Hurst, Schule, Mauler, Weller, Snyder
    GrandFather - Drybread, Wheatley, Marshall, Cotton, Kitchen, Passmore, Harrell, Coppock, Pontius, Zeller, Waters, Charlton, Sager, Barbee, Wimberley, Decker, Nay, Hibbs, Tucker, Irwin, Baker, Cone, Llewellyn, Bayley, Miller->Bunch
    DNA - Parrish, Merritt, White

Similar Threads

  1. THE NEW WORLD (The Movie)
    By Coharie Roy in forum Events
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 07-02-2006, 08:11 PM
  2. World War 11
    By ConnieVentersLewis in forum Shoot the Breeze
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-23-2006, 05:44 PM
  3. The New World
    By Coharie Roy in forum Shoot the Breeze
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-21-2006, 12:27 AM
  4. Tuckahoe and Cohee book
    By TuckahoePrincess in forum Welcome to Saponi Town
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 07-16-2003, 04:02 PM
  5. An Afghan on World War III
    By Linda in forum Shoot the Breeze
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-21-2001, 09:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •