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Hello, has anyone checked out the Orange co. IN. site thay have some info on the archaeology that may be of interest to us, tho’ I haven’t looked at it or tracked down any info from there yet. I’m very curious about our title “Blackfoot Cherokees” I wonder if the Cherokee part wasn’t added after our people moved into the Cherokee country, keep in mind that they would have had to request permission to do so, and like the Natchez, some Yuchi and others formed distinct villages or atleast a population base and would have accepted the definition of the latter even if they were not part Cherokee, after they had been there for some time (like my family) they would have found marriage partners and then the term “Blackfoot Cherokee” would have been logical atleast for my family. I have a reasonable background in Native studies and after looking at some of the old material from the “eastern sioux” I think that they (the former) kept styles of work common to the Nc. people atleast during the cotact period on the northern plains. I have seen old moccasins that are really not very sioux looking but were collected very early for that area, but they would have had counter-parts in the south east, these were center seam moccasins. Also very early quill work from the same area, many so called “x-perts” have problems with quill work being in the southeast but rest assured it was there and did not always exist on the basis of the porcupine being there. In this decorative tradition I have found examples using grass, silk, wool, fern stems, feathers and the older tradition of bird quillwork sewn like porcupine quills, during the 1970s in the far north it was common to use plastic (bizarre)! There is a great deal out there that can help rebuild the old tradions but it has to have a good basis for the arguement to do so,any one reading this should check out the writings on David Bushnell from the early 1900s. There is a beaded bag in England from the early 1600s that has shown up on the old shell gorgets etc. from the south, many of these pieces have items that do look astho’ they could be remade , also there is a skirt that was found in a rock shelter that has a bag with it , using modern materials this weaving method would make very beautiful shawls if some time was taken to do so lastly re this for now, National Geographic published photos of a beaded vail that was unearthed and then one was made like the old, very nice! the issue here is that you can use patterns etc for new items and when the time comes for ceremonies these could be used in sacred parts of life. I hope that this posting helps spark some what of an interest here, if anyone needs some help on anything please send an email to edstp62@hotmail.com and I’ll do my best to answer any question. The arts are something I know a little about including cane basket making,etc. Has any one located the site where that book on filing for membership with the Cherokees is that you had refered to?. Well this is it from the “Northern Door”, best to all, Tom.
There’s a section somewhere on this site of rejected applications. That’s what we’re looking for
http://www.tngenweb.org/cherokee_by_blood/
I need to re-read your post. There were some points I got confused on, but I’m too tired to figure out what questions to ask, but I am very interested in retracing materical culture and recreating what we can.
I did enough research to be confident that our ladies wove the little skirts they wore, they weren’t wearing leather all summer in the south (I don’t care what documentation exists or doesn’t exist, I KNOW I am not related to any idiots who would dress like that in this heat.) I have a fair idea how they did their weaving. I’ve also poked around a little with the idea of attempting to do some of the pottery. I’ve gotten a bit too busy with real world concerns, like making a living, so I may have to cut corners on all that, but I want to do what I can.
I want to glean any motifs and designs from archeological finds and work them into our regalia. I found a rattlesnake pattern on gorgets in Cheraw children’s burials (interestingly cartoonish design). I used that pattern to bead a patch for my little boy’s grass dance outfit. I also used the motif from a pipe found at an Occaneechi site to bead a roach I made for a little Occaneechi boy.
Hey linda, well you’re probably right not many people would wear leather during the summer, up here some folks even went nude during the heat. Anyway I’d like to see some of the work that you have done ,do you think that the Cheraw were from the eastern Sioux confederacy? I looked at the site for Ocaneechi Town and I’m sure that it was only a small village and did not represent the total population.I’d like to see some of the pottery from your area or the area of the Sisspaha,and how is that word properly pronounced? Have you seen any of the books from Germany on the old collections over there? I have seen xeroxs of one by Christian Feest on material culture with very old historic materail including a pipe and some other stuff,have you seen this? If you did some research into material culture there can you tell me if you ran into any fragments etc. of baskets or weavings? In short that N>Geo. article was from a site called Soroa Town or some such spelling , anyway that word refers to a long legged bird that runs along the shores of waterways and marshes,the name is refers to its straw like legs. I don’t know the English word for the bird but I think maybe a Rail or Avocet? Best to all Tom.
The Cheraw are in with the Catawba more, but Catawba are Eastern Siouan too. What I’ve heard is that there are two groups of Siouan that settled out here. The Catawba group got here first, the Saponi/Tutelo later. But the Cheraw were living very close to the Eno/Shakori/Occaneechi in Orange and Alamance counties, so I felt like it was close enough for a reasonable borrowing.
Sara, as in Sara town, means the same thing as the word “Cheraw”
I’ll get some pictures put up of what I’ve done, and what I’d like to do. And I’ve got some links I’ve been meaning to add permanently to the main page. I’ll try to get to that asap.
I’ve never heard of a collection in Germany. How did you learn about that?
These names that you have mentioned, the Cheraw, have you translated this into English? here’s a problem for you to look into, the name for avocet the bird, and then translate cheraw into English, I have found that the English language has a deeper effect on the native words than anyone realizes, infact there are more meanings in a single native word than in any English one. Why? because the old words are from precise speakers, not from a group that enjoys semantics, so if Sara is Chreaw then look into the word for straws, sticks and the like I can assure you that the word for this bird sounds like Soara , sara etc.no matter what the English have bastardized this word is for long straw, legs bird! Anyway,The collections in Germany have almost all shown up in books published in Germany and never get shown in the English speaking world so you’re going to have to look into books published on “Normandicka Indianer” etc,ever hear of the “pow wows ” of 10,000 people? in germany!Some of the pottery that you mention sounds very interesting, I’d like to see pic’s if you have any,I’m sure that the carttonish carvings you mention are due to artist license or the lack of skill,carving shell with flint is not an easy task. Can you tell me if there is a group of Eastern Blackfoot looking to get stae recognition ? this is it thanks again. TP
The only thing I’ve heard is that English people had a bad time understanding what they were hearing in native words, and that they badly corrupted them. Combined with the fact that at that time English spelling was highly irregular, you’ll have half a dozen bad corruptions of the same word. It gets very confusing.
I didn’t know there was any language material existant on the Cheraw language. Is it the same as Catawba?
You mean that there’s a pow wow craze in Germany? Gee, wait till all those New Age bashers hear about that. hehe.
As far as Saponi Blackfoot, we’re it as far as I know. Personally I have no interest in starting up another BIA kennel club. Did I say that? (That’s intended as a slur on the BIA, not anybody they’ve imposed upon.)
From what I know of the requirements we’re way out of line — a lost cause (yippee). Can you tell I’m not too keen on the concept? From what I’ve observed that particular Wonderland just gets curiouser and curioser the deeper you get into it.
Yesterday, somebody on an e-list said that a community incorporating as a city has far more sovereignity than an Indian tribe. Gee, I wonder how the real estate prices are in Saxapahaw? . . .
That reminds me of something I overheard last weekend. A lady at a pow wow was talking about how her tribe’s land was stolen and something about getting it back. Then she complained about how a lot of Myrtle Beach is now owned by Japanese, making it all the more complicated.
I thought, fifty years ago the Japanese were some of the poorest people on earth. Everything they had had just been destroyed. Now they’re so rich they’re buying big chunks of their conquerors’country. It’s not complicated how to get land. You just buy it.
[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 12-04-2001).]
Hello, no that word is not Cheraw it is Saponi, and as far as the Bia Kennel club comment goes,it’s fine with me. My family was asked to send our history in to help with another groups gen, recogntion,when I asked the oldest members of our group up here they all said”no! we have one country telling us who we are we don’t need a second”! and as you might guess our family has about 300 Canadian members the last time I counted and that was several years ago.One comment that you did make ealier was that there was 2 groups of Siouian people that settled out there , if they settled out there then where dd they come from? So many people are into the current Indian scene and won’t look into our ancient history, I guess I have to say that I’m more interested in what happened in 1490 that what was going on in 2001! The real undersatanding of what is going on is with the old folks tradtional or not,we all have a piece of the puzzle ,we just need to get together to piece it back together. Tell me please what is your New Age Bashers , bashing? I have heard that the BIA has made it illegal for non status people to sell items called Indian if someone is not from a recognized Indian tribe, rather odd your Offices can tell people who they are with out asking. (It’s not up to me to prove who Iam , it’s up to them to prove who Iam not)! Anyway I don’t want to get into politics but you’re right the BIA (and the same offices up here) are rather mute points. What I don’t understand is that in some states very early, they had “half breed ” tracts and then they disbanded the policy, it was a hairs breath away from our Metis policies up here, giving the body of people the right to address both sides or more of who we are, I well and truley believe that the Indian Offices SUCK! That includes the concepts of blood quantum, if we are our parents children then does it really matter if we are a bit lighter or darker than the are? The point is we are all human and we need to celebrate our differences. OOOOPs I gues I’m getting off track.Anyway, I hope to see some of your work up soon, thanks agian, Tom.
Are you saying that there are 300 people in Canada with the same, “Other” Blackfoot descent as you?
I guess the archeologists are the ones saying that all the Siouan people originated in the Ohio region.. It’s my interpretation that around the time when the big impressive mound building cultures like the Anastazi crumbled (I think because of a change in climate that hit the big complex systems hard with prolonged famines) new groups, like the Siouan, started to flourish and fill in the vacuum.
I’ve heard that there are some western Siouan, (Dakota maybe?) who have oral traditions that coincide with the Ohio theory. But it’s interesting that so many of our people migrated [back] into Ohio while fleeing the Americans.
Sorry I was talking about the BIA as if they’re pertinent to all of us. I always forget that when I’m speaking to a Canadian. You all must get tired of it.
I never heard of “half breed” tracts in the US. By “tracts” do you mean reservations? That’s very interesting. I often tell people that what I’ve theorized is that my family, for a good while, were like the Canadian Metís. They were a little subculture unto themselves, marrying their own, moving along the frontier together. But they just got called “pioneers.” I wonder how many people got used that way — people who were really retreating back into old haunts “blazing” the trail for the greenhorns fresh off the boat. How convenient.
You said, “Ïf we are our parent’s children, then does it really matter if we are a bit lighter or darker?” Exactly!
If I go into the next world, determined to look after my grandchildren, and their children and so on, am I going to reach a point where I don’t care about them anymore because they don’t look like I did? Or they live in so different a world that they’ll no longer seem precious to me when they’re born?
One of my grandmothers was from way, way back in the “Old Country” as they called it. The world I was born into was vastly different than the one she was born into. She adored me.
What usually happens when a mixed race baby is brought home to a white family that has always been racist? Do they crumble? Yes!
If Gloria had brought home a bi-racial baby to Archie Bunker, what do you think would have happened? Doting grandpa, that’s what. And it would be like all the rubbish he’d always espoused had never happened. If anything, he’d be more protective because he knew intimately what was out there.
You hit the crux of it. All this is a family affair, and really nobody else’s business — not our neighbor’s, and certainly not the government’s. That’s my opinion.
I’ll try to get some scanning done of my crafts as soon as possible.
Tom
I had a relative I was trying to trace that mysteriously left West Virginia in the middle of the night and never returned. On records I was sent it states that this relative lived and died in a place called
Tisedale, Canada. Can you tell me where this is located? I was told he left one step ahead of the law and that he obtained a land grant up there and stayed.
This involved my FPC Collins ancester with connecting names of Robb, Fields, and LaDuke.
Brenda
Hello, Yes I said that our family was 300+ strong and that there are other families up here with the same background as our own history and we have been friends with some of them for some time infact my nice has married one of these folks. I find many people along the US boarder have many connexions to the Usa and to the Cherokee people as well, some infact are voting members of the w, Band in OK. Our own family are considered a bit off, when we were subjected to the Brit’s here during one of our funerals when we insisted on placing grave offerings in the coffin! more than that the local “clergy”club had discussions about it and made it fairly well known that our families traditions were something( that in short polite words for this forum)had totaly confused thier ethnocentrical beliefs, how sad for them, when we were questiond on it we told them that what we do and did was “none of thier @#$% business” anyway you mentioned racism, sothern Alberta is the Alabama of the north, we don’t have chain gangs and we have better roads, that is the only difference! Sorry! anyway yes we do have problems but we adapt quite well. The “half breed” tracts were in Iowa and Nebraska ,mostly in Richardson co.Neb. I think? some old family history is there for my family. Brenda I believe that Tisedale is in Ontario,I have never heard of any Tisedales anywhere else, this is a very British sounding eastern word,if you ned a hand finding anything let me know, you mention land grants etc it sounds as though this was prior to 1935 when Canada was opened up for homesteading in which case your kin if he had any would probably be not far from where he lived, atleast still in that part of Canada. I have met Collins people from New Brunswick and they are all very dark.Thanks again Tom.
Well now, isn’t that good news from the Northern Door! It makes me happy to think there’s such a big cohesive group of s’poni Blackfoot (as Nicole would say) tucked away somewhere.
How much do you think your community has been influenced by other Indians they’ve lived around? I wonder if it’s possible to know if something, like what you were saying about the grave offerings, was carried undiluted from the past. And if it’s possible to know, how one would go about demonstrating it.
Actually, we don’t have chain gangs around here. They do have minimum security prisoners cleaning up the highways, but no chains, and I do think our roads are better than any up north. No frost to heave the asphalt, you see. But as far as the racism goes, it’s hard to tell. It’s more segregated down here in NC than it is up north, but people are friendlier. Blatant crude racism I’ve never seen. People just wave and say hi. They might hate your guts, but they still wave and say hi.
Don’t ever believe anything Hollywood tells you about American southerners. It’s some of the worst stereotyping there is, but nobody’s ever complained. Maybe they’re just biding their time till the next round of the civil war.
I think if you would share what you can on your family history, genealogies, etc. it could help a lot of us working on that northerly migration. And if you all were granted land that was publicly acknowledged to be a “mixed breed” allotment, then for once, there’s some hard evidence.
I’ve heard of it happening before — people who are still living on old tribal land, proving they’re Indian because they can show a paper trail to cousins, who in a different part of the country, or continent, were acknowledged to be Indian.
I’m glad you found our forum, Tom. More later.
Brenda, you sure do have some colorful Collins behind you. My favorite, though, is still that one who lived with the bear, or was it a panther? HAHA. Those were some WILD ndn’s.
Hello Brenda, no I haven’t forgot I just got a bit behind. Well I ‘m sure that our family was in contact with other Indian people because where ever they moved to it was almost within walking distance of another group of native people. How have other people affected us as a group? I don’t think that they have because when we have shown up with other groups we are always asked who are we and so we define ourselves on our own terms. As for our burial traditions I think that they are so private that it’s an area that is almost closed even to our spouses, no kidding! We have not married into any other Native group. I have an uncle that married a Cree woman and a cousin that married a Cree man and a sister that had a son and daughter with a local Blood man but for the most part the family tradtions I know about come from my Mothers side of the family and her father was a Cockney.The other tribal groups that we came into contact with have never had much of an impact on us,no foods, only one medicine that I know of. Regarding the south, yes I have been there several times and I can tell you that New Orleans is a hell hole! I was never so abused in my life as when I stayed there and visited with people who are no longer friends! perhaps it was just them but they were the type to have 11 11 11 written on there walls,and only special KKK for breakfast. The other people in the south that I know are some of the most articulated people that I know and count them as very dear friends,sad when proffessionals leave a bad taste for all.As for the all saying hi! well I think that the “up north” that you may be refering to could be the Yankies’ and no! Canadians are not Yankies. We are Canadians. As for my families northern migration it kind of goes like this,1845-1850 they leave Tn, 1860 they show on the IN census,1870 they are in WI, 1890 they are in Iowa and Nb,1900 they are in MN 1905 they are in Wy and in 1920 they are in Alberta canada.But there was 2 boys that kind of stayed together, one went to Oklahoma and the other went to Mn but by 1900 they were in NB off and on and the by 1905 they were both in Wy but the older went to Canada and left his daughter he and his wife returned to Nb where he died in 1926 then his widow remarried by the 1930s went back to In where she had a farm and her 2 step sons swindled her out of her land and sold it for the coal deposits and then later it became oil rich, she was shipped off to her daughters( with a badly injured leg) in California where she died in 1946?and was planted in Oregon, in the son in laws family cemetary, eventually that side of the family returned to Oregon and are very numerous. The woman refered to was my g.grandmother she had 2 girls and 1 son.As for the half breed tracts in Richardson co. I have never really looked to see if any of the family had land there but that side of the family that was from Nb and Ia was there very early 1830 or so. more on that later. well best to all Tom.
I still live in Oklahoma, as have my ancestors for many generations now. We are fortunate in that we can attend pow-wows/stomps of many nations. There are 39 federally recognized tribes here. Originally 66 tribes (I remember from my jr. high Ok. Hist. class) were brought here, and the rest I guess have since been declared extinct.
But we can visit many cultures from many parts of the nation who were brought here. So we are blesses in that regard.
we are friends with ennrolled Cherokees (eastern Ok), Kiowa (western Ok)& others. But we have also been in the extreme NE corner of Oklahoma where there are 8 small tribes — Ottowa, Seneca-Cayuga, Delaware, 2 bands of Shawnee, Wyandotte, and a few others. ALL those tribes know of the migrations of many tribes to the Ozarks in Mo & Ar & Ok & Ks. I even met one person who said hwy 60 was called “warriors highway” from Va to Mo.
But I also have a Six Nations friends (mixed Cherokee/Tuscarora) who said many of those same tribes went to Canada, and especially said many Indians from the Atlantic region — from SC to all points north, wound up living with 6 Nations in Southern Canada.
So there were many migrations off the East Coast for the tribes there.
vance hawkins
Yes I have heard of many native people moved into the Ontario area, and I’m sure that there are many that we might not hear from. The Six Nations people seam to have been an umbrella for many families and people leaving thier homeland, perhaps in the gentler north, it is easier to live? I have met many people from areas here that have US. blood lines and many have roots in the south.What I would like to know is if there are these Native people moving up to the Six Nations, is there anything left re. their weaving traditions(basket work)? certainly there is identity but I’d like to see more material culture than just the work of the Iroquois. Has there been any archaeological remains found from the sites that once belonged to the Siouan peoples in NC,VA?
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