- This topic has 12,051 voices and 47 replies.
June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26938rockhoundParticipant
You have the right mindset and I think many of us agree with it to a point. You also seem to have a lot of relatives in movies. 🙂
The problem is this is just another missed opportunity to share the truth. So much of what we “know” as history is myth. Myths that were passed down throughout history because of “entertainment.”
Whether it be poems, books, or now movies, myths are perpetuated each time a dishonest history is regurgitated.
Did any of you see “Assume the Position, Mr. Wuhl” (again on HBO)? In it, he dispels many myths of American History that have become “fact” to 99% of us.
Ever heard of Israel Bissel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Bissell
“Although Paul Revere is better known due to the epic poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Bissell was the subject of the less well known “Ride, Israel, Ride,” an epic poem by Marie Rockwood of Stockbridge. According to Syracuse University professor of television and popular culture, Robert Thompson, this is not representative of the relative importance or heroism of each feat; rather, “Paul Revere rhymes with a lot more than Israel Bissell”. Bissell’s place in history was even further smudged by several historical documents which refer to him as “Trail Bissel”. Nevertheless, there were an unknown number of other riders whose names are now completely forgotten.”
Bissel rode 345 miles to warn of the British, whereas Revere only rode 19 miles. If I were a Bissel descendant, I’d be upset everytime a new book or movie perpetuated the myth.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26940DreaminghawkModerator
Becky only misquoted me slightly. …. I think I said this movie was made to entertain 20 to 30 year old white kids. It didn’t do a damn thing for me. btw… why is it even being compared to the excellent book by the same name? It has no relation to it. Does it say “based on the book by the same name”? It is HBO entertainment, not something to get your loincloth in a wad over. Just my opinion.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26942BushtickParticipant
Do you mind me asking if the film you mentioned ” American Hollow” was about the Bowlings/Bollins/Bolling family of Kentucky? I saw a doc several years ago, not all of it, as I missed several parts, of a year in the life’s of this family. I have tried since then to find it airing again, to no avail. But I also forgot the title! I think I might have seen a book in Books-a-Million also about this same family, but was in a hurry and didn’t write down the title, and then promptly forgot it.
I am related to the Bollings family line of Wise Co., VA, who also states they are connected to the Pocohontas line. My relation to this family line in mostly thru marriages.
Anyway, I have often wished I could see all of the documentary. And your posting brought it back to mind. Just wondering if it was the same one.
Take careJune 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26946
Yeah, Same film. My wife is a Bowling descendant from the Hazzard County Ky. area. Also connects to Aracoma Cornstalk/Bowling Baker in some way. I tease her whenever I see Wayne Newton on T.V.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26947
Correction…Hazzard area of Perry County. My wife’s family was from the Letcher County area, southeastern side of the state near Virginia.My wife’s grandfather was a Bowling.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26949BushtickParticipant
I haven’t done much research on my Bolling’s line, but I do have Collins’s in Letcher Co, KY also. I visit a Uncle and Aunt in Jenkins every couple of years or so.
My Mullins side is the one that has married into Bollings, but I beleive I had Collins’s marrying into Bollings also.
Thanks for mentioning the documentary, now I have a title and maybe I can locate it airing again sometime on PBS. I do see that the book is available, but it is very costly I think, so I can’t go that route right now.
Interesting! She and I may be “kin”.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26953PappyDickParticipant
Correction…Hazzard area of Perry County.
Another correction — they spell it Hazard.
Hazzard was invented by the “Dukes of Hazzard” writing team, probably on the advice of the legal department — lest any citizen of the fair state of Kentucky were to feel that his or her fellow townspersons (especially elected officials and law enforcement) were being depicted as ignorant hillbillies. With two Zs, nobody would think of a Kentucky connection.
Do y’all know why there are two Xs in EXXON?June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26955TomParticipant
Okay !why are there 2 x’s in “Exxon”?
I always have to open the door that scares the hell out of people and me too, you know instead of running the other way, it’s like “let’s check this dude out!.
I promise my breech won’t wad and and I won’t “have a buffalo”., man!.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26956PappyDickParticipant
Best answer, I suppose, would be, “I don’t know either; I was hoping somebody else would.” But anyway, I’ll post what Wikipedia says, which maybe flawed, but probably not as flawed as my memory. And I’ll only add that we were told (in a linguistics class I took) that they had one of those big old punched-card computers search an early data base of all available languages, for something that sounded like “Esso,” but was not anyone else’s trademark and was not a swear word to anybody. (Apparently Esso is a swear word, in Tunisian Arabic or something like that; and they commendably didn’t want to make enemies in the Middle East.) The computer came up with Exxon, and they went with it. This may be folklore, but hey, I’m a folklorist.
Here’s the Wikipedia line:
Esso — the enunciation of the initials S.O. in Standard Oil of New Jersey.
Exxon — a name contrived by Esso (Standard Oil of New Jersey) in the early 1970s to create a neutral but distinctive label for the company. Within days, Exxon was being called the “double cross company” but this eventually subsided. (Esso is a trademark of ExxonMobil.) Esso had to change its name in the USA because of restrictions dating to the 1911 Standard Oil antitrust decision.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26957
Tomato, Toe mah toe, Potato, Poe tah toe. We call them “maters” and “taters” around here because of how funny it sounds.
Because we joke about it in the family. I just got into the habit of spelling it with double Z’s in emails and calling it Hazzard County, so it is hard to break the habit, so calling it, as well as spelling it… albeit “incorrectly”, has just become second nature.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26960WachinikaParticipant
Thanks for bringing this great topic to us. I recalled the name of Carter Camp in passing but had never personally encountered him “round these parts”. My guess is he is a Southern Ponca (pronounced as a cross between a “B” & a “P”) BPonca. Also read at one point at least he was living on Rosebud. I much enjoyed learning of him online today. Any Wounded Knee II Vet cousin, of whom I learned he is one, has my utmost, humble respect.
by Pocahontas…do you mean, the “Cartoon” or “Pocahontas Revisited”?
“I won’t even get into the other native movies that have come out, but other than to say this, if it’s not your story and you can’t ask the people most involved in the story to help then leave it alone!”That says it all, Tom. (Except, we’re intriqued as to your part in the production.)
“they were jealous of us cause we were livin good & if they got greedy cause they were livin ruff.”That you see it as jealousy tells me your heart…you know what was suppressed was the superior.
However, I think my ‘ol Prof was right when she said, to minimize the indigenous peoples as “savage” and “less than”, gave the pioneers the justification to take their land. (By the way Tom, my Prof had dual Canadian and U.S. citizenship, which gave her an openess needed here.)
By “Indy” do you mean, from India? darn Columbus’ error can get confusing!, or from Indianapolis?, or NDN?
“Again, films are not to be taken literally. It is just entertainment. If people think they can deliver a better representation of “Wounded Knee”, then they should grab a camera and make the film. I know indy film makers personally who made outstanding films with just one camcorder. But I seriously doubt anyone complaining will ever do that…they like to moan and groan too much.”
I believe the topic of Wounded Knee can and and never should be regarded as “Entertainment”.
You know I respect your heritage because of your teeth. 😀
(I had that root-canal apparatus in my mouth so darn fast I couldn’t ask a question! I’m also getting new front teeth and am happy to say, you are right, they are pre-made teeth and by gup-by-golly, they are scooped in the back, so at long last I’ll be able to say the NDN sounds I couldn’t before, like “th” (Thl) as in Bthin = good. Now, I believe this means that my teeth were made in Japan, or more likely these days, China, anyway, they got them right! Hopefully, is no harmful chemical is in them.:o )
Well…remember how you wanted us all to know that the Mulugeon Video on U-tube was fiction and how you have told us that it is so important to distiquish between fact and fiction regarding Melugeon and YOUR family…well, it is, in my opinion, even more important to do the same regarding Wounded Knee. Because in my opinion, Wounded Knee is not only genealogy but genocide.
In kind, on a historical topic, as the genocide of Wounded Knee, we, the public have the right to expect accuracy. And when we are failed, we, the people have the right and obligation to make known the falsehoods, without being required to become filmmakers. A culture is judged by the art it produces, and many expect film to be art.
“Critics need jobs too” ~ B.B. King (Knowing BB’s kind heart, I think this meant being a critic is a worth while job…not that critics should get a job in addition to being critics.)
With all that all of our ancestors of all nationalities have endured, this is what we have; freedom of speech and religion, and the right to exercise it. If you read the history, I think we’ve taken two steps forward.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26963
Oh…I forgot about “spell check”, also I am using an old keyboard which is harder to type on because of the layout. When I said “Indy”, I meant “Indie” (typing slowly) as in “Independant”.
When B.B. King was asked about what he thought about critics he laughed and said “I guess they need jobs too.” He basically went on to say that they had no idea what they were talking about when talking about him. He said they were not there. So yes, it was in a nice way, but he was not being so nice about it as far as his opinion of them went.
I am not “making light” of Wounded Knee however. I am making light of the fact that, to quote a couple on here, getting your loincloth in a bunch over it is pointless. Again it is entertainment for the mass general public, much as “Pirates Of The Carribean” is. The general public, as is shown almost daily, probably have no idea where they come from, who they are connected to, or whatever. Did I say it was right? NO. But Hollywood and even HBO could care less about anything but the revenue brought in by viewers, or as with HBO…ratings.
Making me sound like I am “thoroughly entertained” by film is wrong and the point is missed. “Genocide” is not funny nor entertains me…when I say it is “Entertainment” I mean it is the film makers viewpoint, so I look at it as such because I know it is going to be wrong in some way. But, however wrong it is, HBO and most film makers could care less how anyone feels. It is all about the money. By voicing an opinion on a forum…well in my opinion, do you really think Hollywood or HBO comes here and is effected by it? I can overlook alot because I was raised to look over alot, so it boils down to “What is the chaff to the wheat?” with me. If others are bothered by it, then they can make a better film, or they can contact HBO, or MGM, or whoever and state their feelings where they can actually be truely effected by it.
Freedom of speech I am all for, Freedom of religion as well, but it (speech) should be used in the right way for the wanted effect before it will do any good or make any changes. One can only hope to please perhaps 40% of the people sometimes…on a good day. Being aware that something most likely is going to be not to one’s liking actually prepares one for when it occurs.
Like I said before, regarding the YouTube video…anyone can do or think as they please. I know it is needless to put so much into the area because they are not Melungeon. But if one wants to believe it, the books, the theories, land records as proof of descendancy…believe me, I say “Go For It”. Art may define us to some degree as a nation, but the efforts persued that “may be” toward a bloodless revolution is more harmful than what art portrays us as a nation. I don’t buy into it all, at all…but who am I to say. All I can give is my personal insight to the area and the families.
No harm, no foul…just exercising my right to an opinon and view.
Shovel teeth has nothing to do with race. Again everyone has them. the MHA again put a statement on their site about it. But again…believe what one will.June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26965WachinikaParticipant
To Steve-o, my friend,
“I am not “making light” of Wounded Knee however. I am making light of the fact that, to quote a couple on here, getting your loincloth in a bunch over it is pointless. Again it is entertainment for the mass general public, much as “Pirates Of The Carribean” is. The general public, as is shown almost daily, probably have no idea where they come from, who they are connected to, or whatever. Did I say it was right? NO. But Hollywood and even HBO could care less about anything but the revenue brought in by viewers, or as with HBO…ratings.”
To say it is entertainment for the masses and doesn’t matter… how is that different than Germany in the 40’s? The “masses” do have a brain and if given the right information may exercise it as a vote in this experiment of America and prevent any future outcome similar to Jackson’s removal of Indian Nations to Concentration Camps (reservations).
”By voicing an opinion on a forum…well in my opinion, do you really think Hollywood or HBO comes here and is effected by it? I can overlook allot because I was raised to look over a lot, so it boils down to “What is the chaff to the wheat?” with me. If others are bothered by it, then they can make a better film, or they can contact HBO, or MGM, or whoever and state their feelings where they can actually be truly effected by it.”
Extremely good point, Steve! We should all do that.
“but the efforts pursued that “may be” toward a bloodless revolution is more harmful than what art portrays us as a nation. I don’t buy into it all, at all…but who am I to say.”I am sorry, but I don’t understand any of this. It sounds important. Can you break it down for me?
As for Shovel teeth, perhaps my next destination will be Missouri, the “show me state”, because I’m going to have to make alot more friends of all races and do some more field research to show me this.:D
“No harm, no foul”
I can see you are sharing the coping skills that have gotten you by as a bi-racial brought up in the white community, but I think there is harm and foul in not at last giving NDNs with out that position, their full place as the elders of our land and equal citizenry before the law, rather than the dumb Indians Carter Camp says he saw portrayed. As a people claiming NDN ancestry, I think these things matter.
I too hope some NDN produced films come around. Until then, letting them know what we expect and want is the best we can do and may also help bring the NDN produced films to mass media. The great #s of NDN’s and mixed bloods probably do have marketing significance. Given all of the air time given to Black America…we should figure in.
I’ll try to find links tomorrow for any of us who care to contact them with our concerns.
Thank you, Steve for guiding me in that direction.
~ Peace and Love to you and yoursJune 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26967
By “bloodless revolution” which is a term that takes on many forms, and has over the years. Originally an English term concerning a war they were in…what I mean is…well actually one has to ask themselves one main question.
Why does a race from the middle east, who are basically taught to “hate” Americans, or as the extremists like to spell our country “Amerika”, and are taught at a young age, and are basically trained to hate and look at killing Americans…why do they all of the sudden want us all to be their Melungeon brethren? Even true Muslims, not all but quite a bit, state that we are all Melungeons in their “propaganda”, and quote Kennedy’s book as if it were a Bible, yet Kennedy has been proven a fraud, intentionally and accidentally.
Their facts have even been proven false. Elvis Presley was not of Melungeon extraction. The estate has a genealogist working on the family and has shown that Gladys Presley was descended from a Jewish lady.
Abraham Lincoln: Abe Lincolns mother was named Nancy Hanks. For years researchers have been baffled and still are over which Nancy Hanks was Lincoln’s mother. There were a known 45 Nancy Hanks born between the late 1700’s and early 1800’s. If Lincoln researchers cannot say for certain, then it is proof that the Melungeons certainly could not.
What happened to the Portuguese as being the real Melungeons, now it is the Moors and the Turks. Even alot of NA’s think people buying into all this are not using their heads.
What is the Melungeon agenda? What is the reason behind them wanting to be Muslim all of the sudden? Fear of another 9/11? Well let’s put history and facts into perspective. Again the extremist Muslim groups all want us dead, to think oneself as immune if the unlikely happens of a middle eastern takeover of the U.S., does one actually believe professing to be a Melungeon is going to save them from being executed? I would fathom a guess that no one of that regime would care….bye bye…bullet to the back of the head.
So why the switch? Why is it so important? You mention WWII propaganda, well look at the way Melungeon theorists are putting their story out there.
I am not a conspiracy follower or believer, but none of them allow for anyone to speak their mind against them. I have watched plenty be attacked on genforum for stating how they feel. I was contacted by a few who questioned them that said they received email threats for speaking out, and then watched as their thread was deleted. So the question is “Why?” Anything that might show another point of view is removed and in a vicious manner. “Freedom of Speech” my butt. To me it is “Believe what I say…or else”…”Your point of view does not matter.” It is genealogy, why all the sudden no one can speak their mind about the subject.
Their proof again is just last names, and “land records”. Where is the hard proof? I was told once they had it, then was told later “well we will have it.”
15 original TRI’s in the 1600’s could not encompass the world.
Their agenda is what concerns me. Could it be since they cannot take over the U.S. that they think they can work their way in by forcefully claiming we are related to them? Yeah in a Godly sense we are all related, but changing course when the bottom falls out for these people is the norm. They have no hard evidence, nor do they do anything but bully their beliefs upon others.
So could it be that they are doing this as some sort of take-over in the sense of a bloodless revolution? Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. But they sure are not forthcoming with why all the sudden the winds shifted and now they are all Muslim and Moor. Two groups that geographically really had no connections. Shifty actions, threats, no hard evidence…only names…
Like I said before…who were the original roughly estimated 15 original TRI’s? Answer that and there would be no question as to where they came from.
Of course I expect someone will chime in on the whole Melungeon thing, but if they do…don’t give me the usual retoric. Show me the proof. Not a census marked otherwise with a “proposed” Melungeon surname. Not the usual “They don’t know who they are” nonsense, because it is obvious they have no idea who they are. Or ask for my responses to be pulled which will only prove my point. Genealogy is not about “he said she said”, it is about finding the facts to support your claims.
I listed so many families I descend from and that my wife is descended from, and have spent years digging, and will for many more years. I am no longer folled into believeing much of anything on a “he said she said” basis. My maternal side reeks of Shawnee and hints at a Powhatan connection, as does my wife…although hers definitely has Powhatan. I have ripped into many of whom I speak of on a personal level to show me proof. None has surfaced, just more theories. Theories can only become fact by hard proof, not stories.
I am not bitter, just speaking the truth. For everything thrown at me saying I am Melungeon, I have been able to throw proof, or guidance to the proof down which sends them to their corner. Anymore I cannot escape them, nor do I care to because I have proof in what I say. But for me to just “Shut Up” because it is the “Politically Correct” thing to do, and not speak the truth…well that just isn’t going to happen because they are placing a “stigma” on my ancestors, along with “stereotypes” concerning their appearance.
I do not need to be swayed into believing I am Melungeon, not only because I am not, but because I am not “lazy minded” to not dig for the truth and fall for the old “Have you heard your ancestor was Native American and you cannot find out anything about them?…then you are most likely Melungeon.”
This stuff doesn’t always just present itself, you have to remove yourself from the computer every once in a while and dig. It may take years, but it does not happen overnight.
Totally out of context for this thread, and I appologise. I am not angry at anyone, but am at a mindset after the death of my wife’s grandmother just this week, who was married to a Bowling, that I am really sort of privy to the real deal. I’ll go by what they say, my wife’s uncle spent a ton of years in family research, over falling for the latest fad.
I often say sarcastically that I am one of the lucky ones because of my constant and forevermore connection to this whole Melungeon thing. But in thinking just now, I am lucky because I descend from them all and am married to a wife who is pretty much descended from the rest. Real truth lies there for me, and is why I can shoot down most of the theory thrown at me on an almost daily basis. I am young, and I will be around for a long time. I seriously doubt, following the track record so far of the Melungeon theorists, that any real documented proof will ever surface. It all just get’s easier to handle everyday because I deal with it all everyday.
SteveJune 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm #26977TomParticipant
Wasdika, I believe that i posted here maybe before you arrived taht it had made Sitting Bulls moccasins, I have no idea if he (August) wore them.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.