Dna Testing

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    vance hawkins

    Hi All,


    This is not just to you but to many, it just so happens that you are the person who brought this up this time.

    I am envious of mixed-blood Indian people in the East. Yall can go up to someone and say “I’m Indian” without someone eyeballing you from head to toe and replying “No you aren’t!” Then laughing as they turn and walk away. They are accustomed to seeing full bloods.

    There is such a wide gulf between my experiences and the things I hear on the internet. Maybe it is an unfathomable gap. I took a trip East so I could understand yall better. I wish some of yall might come out here to see where I am coming from, a little better.

    I am not sure what you mean by “full blood”. Perhaps the term means different things in different places. I learned that “better” on my trip East. Many times on many boards this topic of full bloods being practically extinct has come up, and it seems that this as acccepted as truth by many. Since I have had full blood neighbors since I was a child (I’m 52 now), this is sort of a pet peeve of mine. Maybe I’m just jealous because I can’t get away with claiming to be Indian as yall can. In Oklahoma, South Dakota, New Mexico, Arizona, and probably a few other places, there are still a great many full bloods. But there never were a lot of Indian people.

    Here in Oklahoma, it just means “full blood Indian”. This might have been meant to include those adopted into the tribe in earlier times, but not today because of federal intervention into tribal laws.

    Also, someone might be enrolled as “full-blood” Creek but in reality they might be part Navajo (the families might have met at a Pow-wow) or part Kiowa or part something else. These are mixed in historic times, without mentioning probable mixing with other tribes before 1 or 200 years ago. The term “Full Blood” has never met anything else to most Indian peoples. It never has “literally” meant “full Blood Creek”.

    So when people say they are full blood, it is with those exceptions mentioned above as being implied. To many Indian people this is understood at a young age.

    I invite you (or anyone) to come to any Oklahoma Pow-Wow — all (or nearly all) the dancers will “apear” to be very much full blood Indian, as will many (probably most) of the visitors in attendance. Those of us who are 1/8th or 1/4th will stick out like a sore thumb.

    I desperately want people from the East to come out here and visit a Western Pow-Wow.



    Exactly WV, and to go further on the whole Jewish thing, I would say that it would just show up as Middle Eastern or maybe even European, on the DNA testing, you know with the Jewish people being from Isreal and everything, that would definetly be considered the middle east, I think we forget sometimes that the war we are currently fighting is by all Biblical means in the Holy Land. So as far as the DNA thing goes, unless we strictly concentrate on DNA testing for our American Indegenous roots we are going to get an eclectic result. You know I think they do have a DNA test that tells us regionally, where our tribes come from in the Americas, infact I think I saw it on genetree, I think that would be maybe a good second test to take.



    I have been out West and I understand where you are coming from. I spent a good deal of time around the Apache and visited the Cherokee in Oklahoma and the Navajo in Arizona.

    I am also from Eastern KY. You are right about the “Full Blood” Indian. I would have to agree with you and say that it does mean something “different” and by different I mean that according to most people from eastern KY that I have met full blood means not only blood quantum but also skin color which is generally not looked upon as very dark in this part of the country. Therefore it is believable that a person is “full blood” or Indian in general,if they are light skinned and have other “features” to which someone might attribute to an Indian. An Indian in this part of the country could be anyone that is “slightly” darker in skin color. Unfortunatley, straight dark hair (usually black) is also something a person might look at to judge anothers ethnicity or race. Indians are not thought to have curly hair in these parts. If you are darker in skin color with curly hair (which by the way is a dominant feature) then you would be perceived as Hispanic, or mixed-black and white. No one ever refers to anyone as Jewish, Italian, and rarely Hispanic. They think in terms of Red, White, and Black. And those colors inbetween.

    I guess what I am trying to say in a very lengthy way is that Indian in these parts are considered mostly white (which holds some degree of truth to it) and from there you are either White, Black, or mixed.

    Many people in this area also do not want to be, or at least admit they are anything outside of the White or Black race.

    Please no one jump down my throat here. I am speaking from what I have experienced and the words and perceptions of others from what could be considered extreme eastern KY. I realize that not ALL people in these areas think this way.

    Among the Apache I learned that only about 300 “Pure Bloods” exist and that is among all tribes. Which means to me that even Indians are mostly “mixed”. The fellow that I was talking to just happened to be Italian, Apache, and some English. It was pretty fascinating.

    People always think that if a person is from KY and claims Indian heritage then they can be none other that Shawnee. Personally, it makes sense to some degree.

    I also knew a Sioux man who was from Colorado and was black as well as Indian.

    Don’t let it get you down Vance. If you are Indian then say it is so. If they do not believe you then that is not your problem. Like an Indian lady once told me….blood quantum is not significant and neither is who in your family was Indian. Either you are Indian or you are not. It is a state of mind.




    I think your right about the interpretation of Full Blood, that there are many interpretations, I dont want to get people confused that it is any easier here, it can be, but there are factors involved.

    Believe me, I have been looked at the same way, because I am not Anishenabe, and God forbid if you say Cherokee, which p’s me off all the time.

    Flippinjg the coin, I remember we were at a Pow Wow here and one of the Southern drums, I cant remeber if it was Eastern Band or Oklahoma band Cherokee, gave us a flyer to come and sing at their Pow Wow but the requirement was for all members to be tribally enrolled, which not all of us are, infact the majority of us are not. I am just in a strangely Unique situation, I think people actually treat us well because we live traditional, or we are balanced between the the non indian world and Tradition. Our Drum has gone under different scrutiny, too many Mexicans and their creation story is different than Ours on Turtle Island, I could go on, but I will say it is not easier, than down there just different. Not Good Not Bad Just Different.

    I care what the elders tell us “Full Blood” or not

    I am the furthest from being full blood but I live Traditional, you know if people saw us living traditional they would not care what our blood cuantum was, And I am probably going to get in trouble for saying this but here it is, If people want exceptance so bad and this is NOT in ALL Cases, but we need to stop going to Pow Wows with Turkey feathers! If people dont have the feathers THEN GO WITH OUT THEM, I cannot say enough how badley that It is looked down upon, it may seem little, but it is not when we put our selves out in the community. Hawk, Eagle and Mcaw Feathers that is it, and If you are carrying Mcaw Feathers, you should be claiming some Mexica ANcestry.

    I don not know how i got on that but the whole point is, I respect all the things that I am, but I live and write Native on everything because that is how I live and I identify, I dont withhold I am anything else ever , but I made my choice in my life. Let people Laugh at me, I am not scared anymore, let them say something about my child, let them say something about my Husband, My family, My community Anish/Saponi/Mexica ect), Because I will fire right back.

    ANd my last little blurb:

    Honestly I will refrase that when I said “Full Blood” I will change that to ” I heard it from a Traditional Elder” because if anyone has my respect it is those who live traditional not those who are full blood.

    ANd 100 hundred times I will say this, if I could take away our peoples pain I would, I would , I would. To many tears and too much anger spilled over ignorance.

    The EVil have no Power over us, they have no power. There is Only One and that is Wakan Tanka, Creator, Our Savior Jesus Christ that is it.

    Love you Vance and all reading this, sorry if I offend anyone.


    Oh and Vance I would Love the Opportunity to come out there, as long as it is outside of Tornado Season LOL

    A close friend of our is Muskogee and goes down there for Ceremony, he has invited us to go down but it is always around Sundance, not to mention I dont think I can Stomp Dance through the night, besides I am no good at Stomp dancing unless your a good teacher!:p


    Dear Christina and Waitman,

    I remember seeing that episode about the Lemba a few years back.

    What the deal was is that there is a class of Jewish men known as the Kohanim who are descended from the ancient Hebrew priests.50% of Kohanim carry a marker called the “Kohanim marker” on their “Y” chromosome and 10% of the general Jewish male population have this marker.Therefore,if

    this marker exists in these ratios,you have a Hebrew descended community.

    And,lo and behold,50% of upper-class

    Lemba males had the Kohanim marker and 10% of other male Lemba had the marker!They were not only Orthodox Jews but there had to be some distant

    Hebrew ancestry in spite of their phenotype (physical appearance).

    I had always assumed that European

    Jews were nothing but a bunch of converts who were Jews but not Hebrew

    descendants.But I saw an article in a FL

    newspaper several years back saying that

    European Jews had the closest DNA relationship to Syrians,Jordanians,

    Arabians,etc.After all those centuries,they

    were still Hebrews!


    P.S.-I’m an Orthodox Christian and in the

    post of 8/21/2005,people might think

    the Armenian Orthodox Church is a Jewish cult founded by Noah.It’s an Orthodox Christian Church.The Noah connection is that Armenian Orthodox feel Noah landed on Mt. Ararat which was

    once in Armenia but sadly,is now in Turkey.I know this is an ethnic forum,so

    that’s all I’ll say about Orthodoxy.


    Thank you roca you are exactly right.. about all of it:D


    Mrs Patino says >>>> And I am probably going to get in trouble for saying this but here it is, If people want exceptance so bad and this is NOT in ALL Cases, but we need to stop going to Pow Wows with Turkey feathers! If people dont have the feathers THEN GO WITH OUT THEM, I cannot say enough how badley that It is looked down upon,

    Could you please elaborate on the turkey feather issue. It is my understanding that the eastern tribes, especially Saponi, traditionally wore turkey feathers. It was an indigenous and much honored bird in the east. But I understand that from what you are saying, western full bloods who follow a traditional custom started in the 20th century for the entertainment of whites will look down on me if I wear the feathers that my people have worn for 1000s of years? I never could figure out ndn politics and red racism. I’m not trying to confront you, just trying to understand.


    No one can have or wear feathers from birds of prey such as hawks or eagles unless you are given a special permit by the Dept. of the Interior/BIA. The process is very lengthy and involved and only a few actually have them legally. All feathers from birds of prey have to be registered in order to be used legally unless they changed the laws in the past couple of years. Fines of 500 dollars- 800 dollars per feather can be levied so if have them be careful.

    Turkey feathers have been used by our Saponi ancestors as well as feathers from other birds. The turkey is a sacred bird amoung most of the tribes from the East. If people are looking down on others wearing turkey feathers then they are just looking for a reason to hate. The Pow-wow circuit is dominated by Plains Indian tradition in dance, regalia, etc. If I am not mistaken there are rules that are set up for the contests and then of coarse there is the free style portion and different things can be done. The thing is that Eastern tribes needs to seperate off and do their own Pow-wows in their own customs and traditions if the Plains people don’t want us there. This would probably eliviate alot of contraversy over who is more traditional or wearing the right items. The Saponi have their own regalia and all that needs to be done is to use it. It is good to look to other cultures for inspiration but keep in mind you have a special cultural heritage that you are a part of too. Don’t be afraid to utilize it that is what it is there for and have fun.

    On DNA testing is it still 300 dollars to get a test?


    Can someone tell me why the Turkey is sacred to the Saponi and what the meaning and significance of the turkey is?

    Because I can Honestley say I have never heard of Eastern tribes, Northwest tribes, Southern tribes, Plains tribes, Northern tribes, Central American tribes, Ever using Turkey feathers. I personnaly have not seen it as plains influence and furthermore if you want to talk about Plains influence, um we are related to the Lakota and that being said that we are the same people, I have never heard of the Plains people using Turkey feathers to honor anyone. Oh and to me Pow Wow’s are a type of Ceremony, not just fun, you have a drum, sacred fire, medicines, jingle dancers and prayers at a Pow Wow, we sing song to bring the community together, those songs are also for healing, and the day a turkey feather drops in a pow wow arena and the Pow Wow stops so that the Vets can pick it up. Then I will take it into consideration that the turkey is sacred. I am open to being educated, but I am not going on this on a whim, that is just how it is from Six Nations in Canada to Arizona, and Florida to Alaska, I’ve done a little traveling with the drum, and I might add that maybe I would include Raven feathers in there for the Alaskan tribes.

    This is not me looking down on anyone this is me looking out for my people. Some people dont think it is funny, Many indian folks, look at using Turkey and Goose feathers as a mockery of our culture! Thats why


    If anyone would like to dicuss this particular subject further I am over at the Indian Issues Board.

    bring chips, Soda, and dont forget the lawn chair:p


    Collins says>>>> The thing is that Eastern tribes needs to seperate off and do their own Pow-wows in their own customs and traditions if the Plains people don’t want us there.

    My point exactly. “Real” ndns don’t use turkey and goose BECAUSE they were used by the eastern tribes……. and we all KNOW there are no real ndns east of the mississippi.

    peace, my brother

    btw…… I will continue to wear a single turkey feather straight up centered in the back of my fedora 😉

    lynne pepper

    Hello Vance.

    It still pains me to see the things that you have to go through. But I can understand this without having to witness it.

    Your offer is a generous one. Perhaps someday.

    Things are changing. Everything is changing. I honestly believe that we represent a kind of future of this issue…blood quantum that is.

    Whatever the West is doing…our condition is their future. Its just a matter of time.

    So in another sense, we should figure out how to lead the way with these problems.

    Our ancestors had problems concerning these issues. They solved them. Now it is up to us to solve the second part of the problem, how to survive, to change, and not die out.



    lynne pepper

    Originally posted by vance hawkins

    I had the minimun (12 markers) test for our Hawkins surname. Oddly enough, the most Hawkins “halpogroup” (what ever tha is)

    A halpogroup is a mitochondrial Dna group. Made famous by the Mitochondrial Eve theory.

    they have uncovered speaks of a middle eastern ancestry. Hawkins? Is’t that as “English” as you can get? Makes ya wonder . . . some come from the Vikings, too. I can understanfd that, but the Middle East??

    Europeans come from all over the place. When you are following a mtcDNA trail, you will be going back many thousands of years. I remember Teachtech talking about Chinese ancestry in her DNA test….there is a lot of Chinese MtDNA in the French, coming through Turkey, coming through Mongol invasions of the middle east.

    If you have read the history of the Kelts, aka Celts, in historic time (Pre-Roman times, the age of the Greek City states) there were Tribes of Kelts first found in Asia Minor known as “Bythnians” near present day Istanbul, but on the Black sea. Later Celts are found in Switzerland, who are later in France, and are the Gaulic tribes in France, and they are the Gaelic tribs in Ireland, and are supposedly the ancestors of the Old Britons, 2 branches survive today — Cornish in Cornwall and Welch people in Wales. he Anglo-Saxon invasion did away with the rest of them.

    Recently, in England, they did some studies using the Y chromo marker, and found that the direct descendant of Cheddar Man, a Neolithic skeleton found in Cheddar, was a woman who was living about 50 miles away from the site of his discovery.

    Also the Scotsmen in the North who invaded that region from Ireland about 7 or 800 ad. when they conquered the Picts wo had lived up there.

    Both the Scots and the Irish have significant Scandinavian heritage, due to the fact that the Norse invaded and settled both of those places. Clan Gunn, in Scotland, traces its ancestry back to Norway.

    Could this explain the number of middle eastern markers they are finding that they should not be finding? I don’t know . . . 🙁

    Heh, there are no markers that shouldn’t be found. They express migrations.

    Still haven’t rceived any results. They said it’d take about 4 weeks.


    I look forward to your results, and those of the others on this board.




    I ordered my DNA test today. The lady that I spoke with said that it would take 3 to 5 working days to get here. Then it would take 6 to 8 weeks give or take a week to get the results. I am really looking forward to seeing what the results say. It well finally lay to rest any doubts about what is in my family. I am taking the 2.5 test that determines my percentage of Native American, European, African or whatever may be in my DNA. I’ll let you know what the results are as soon as I know.

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