New Saponi DNA Project

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This topic contains 7 replies, has 1,006 voices, and was last updated by  MarcSnelling 4 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #4367

    MarcSnelling
    Keymaster

    Saponi DNA Project just started at FTDNA by Scott Collins of Saponi Descendants Association – TX

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/saponi/

    #37593

    CPN73
    Participant

    Thanks for putting this out there, I am definitely going to join up.

    #37602

    MarcSnelling
    Keymaster

    No prob.

    I did a mini-DNA study today. Took two samples from people here: GGM_Robbins and TechTeach’s mother.

    We have a series of small matches >3cM. The question was, are those very old ancient segments, are they convergence of two small segments? Or are they evidence of a portion of a larger shared link.

    Judging by the names I see in genealogy of DNA cousins, it seems I’m at least a cousin of a cousin to everyone here.

    A way to prove that would be to find links >7cM to the same person.

    …and there are:

    TechTeach’s Mother shares 9.5cM with Dennis Hampton my mother shares two segments >20cM

    GGM_Robbins shares a 22.8cM segment with John Wesley Mounce my mother has a 12.8cM segment.

    I think these lines really need to be looked at from a female perspective. Who has shared X chromsome? – Any line with two men in a row is not going to pass that. It’s either mother-daughter or mother-son-granddaughter.

    With my Smith cousin we are able to identify shares on out maternal grandmother (MGM) line.

    TechTeach’s mother does match on out MGM line but does not share segments on X.

    Finding common cousins makes it possible to triangulate common stories/ancestors/names/locations.

    #37604

    techteach
    Moderator

    OK, clearly you get DNA more than me. I have not had time to wrap my brain around the X chromosome.

    We do know that GGM_Robbins and I are cousins, regardless of DNA results.

    I do have the triangulation feature on Gedmatch, but again, I have not had time to wrap my brain around it specifically either. I kind of get it but not entirely.

    Techteach

    #37606

    MarcSnelling
    Keymaster

    techteach;38389 wrote: OK, clearly you get DNA more than me. I have not had time to wrap my brain around the X chromosome.

    We do know that GGM_Robbins and I are cousins, regardless of DNA results.

    I do have the triangulation feature on Gedmatch, but again, I have not had time to wrap my brain around it specifically either. I kind of get it but not entirely.

    Techteach

    Basically I’m doing manual triangulations in spreadsheets and Genome Mate. After years of reading genealogies, researching Tutelo-Saponi timelines and hearing people’s family histories I get ‘a sense’ of where to start looking – as opposed to just going by DNA alone.

    With autosomal DNA – if two people don’t have a significant match it does not disprove a relation. X and Y chromosome matches can disprove relations on direct male and female lines, but on chromosome 1-22 (autosomal) this is not the case.

    With each generation you go back from yourself your chance of finding your cousins decreases…

    your parents share about 50% each (people who share it with you are brother/sister)

    grandparents 25% (people who share it are 1st cousins)

    g-grandparents 12.5% (2nd cousins)

    gg-grandparents 6.75% (3rd cousins)

    ggg-grandparents 3.375% (4th cousins)

    gggg-grandparents 1.6875% (5th cousins)

    gggg-grandparents 0.84375% (6th cousins)

    So in seven generations the match is already less than 1%. This is assuming the full segment actually was actually 50% and made it through seven generations. In practice it is not exactly 50% each generation (that’s an an average), and there are mutations. So at the 6th cousin point it could just as easily be an indistiguishable smaller segment. So if you do find a matching segment it proves a relation, but if you don’t, it doesn’t disprove it.

    Because of this – the chance of finding your cousins shrinks with each generation. Even if you had DNA from every ancestor going back seven generations – you would still only find the match on less than 2% of your 6th-cousins. You are almost 100% certain to find 2nd-cousins, >90% sure to find 3rd cousins, >50% sure to find 4th cousins, >10% sure to find 5th cousins, and so on.

    Based on DNA alone I already figured you and GGM_Robbins are related, and that I am as well, probably through ancestors common to all three of us. Now that we have identified two others who link us – we can look at the groupings for common names/locations/patterns:

    What do you, me and Dennis Hampton have in common?

    What do I have in common with GGM_Robbins and John Wesley Mounce?

    What do all five of us have in common?

    The more of these questions we can answer the more we narrow down our connections.

    My guess is we are related through an ancestor in PA within the last 250 years. But I will be able to make a more educated guess after I have time to answer the questions above.

    #37622

    anotherhelton
    Participant

    MarcSnelling;38391 wrote: Basically I’m doing manual triangulations in spreadsheets and Genome Mate. After years of reading genealogies, researching Tutelo-Saponi timelines and hearing people’s family histories I get ‘a sense’ of where to start looking – as opposed to just going by DNA alone.

    With autosomal DNA – if two people don’t have a significant match it does not disprove a relation. X and Y chromosome matches can disprove relations on direct male and female lines, but on chromosome 1-22 (autosomal) this is not the case.

    With each generation you go back from yourself your chance of finding your cousins decreases…

    your parents share about 50% each (people who share it with you are brother/sister)

    grandparents 25% (people who share it are 1st cousins)

    g-grandparents 12.5% (2nd cousins)

    gg-grandparents 6.75% (3rd cousins)

    ggg-grandparents 3.375% (4th cousins)

    gggg-grandparents 1.6875% (5th cousins)

    gggg-grandparents 0.84375% (6th cousins)

    So in seven generations the match is already less than 1%. This is assuming the full segment actually was actually 50% and made it through seven generations. In practice it is not exactly 50% each generation (that’s an an average), and there are mutations. So at the 6th cousin point it could just as easily be an indistiguishable smaller segment. So if you do find a matching segment it proves a relation, but if you don’t, it doesn’t disprove it.

    Because of this – the chance of finding your cousins shrinks with each generation. Even if you had DNA from every ancestor going back seven generations – you would still only find the match on less than 2% of your 6th-cousins. You are almost 100% certain to find 2nd-cousins, >90% sure to find 3rd cousins, >50% sure to find 4th cousins, >10% sure to find 5th cousins, and so on.

    Based on DNA alone I already figured you and GGM_Robbins are related, and that I am as well, probably through ancestors common to all three of us. Now that we have identified two others who link us – we can look at the groupings for common names/locations/patterns:

    What do you, me and Dennis Hampton have in common?

    What do I have in common with GGM_Robbins and John Wesley Mounce?

    What do all five of us have in common?

    The more of these questions we can answer the more we narrow down our connections.

    My guess is we are related through an ancestor in PA within the last 250 years. But I will be able to make a more educated guess after I have time to answer the questions above.

    Wouldn’t the Y chromosome carry indefinitely? If two male ancestors shared the same line that marker shouldn’t change no matter how far you go back. I’m no expert so I could be wrong.

    How many people have participated in this project?

    #37626

    MarcSnelling
    Keymaster

    The percentages I’m referencing above are autosomal DNA – as in chromosomes 1-22.

    The X and Y chromosomes are different. Y passes from father to son to grandson, etc virtually unchanged – like you say. X chromosome data is inherited from ancestral lines that do not go through more than two males in a row. So a person’s X chromosome data cannot be from their paternal grandfather. That is my understanding.

    The Saponi DNA project just got rolling – there were about a dozen registered last I checked. I’m working on getting five new samples from various family. We have done seven samples so far in my family (not all are Saponi descendants though)

    #37630

    anotherhelton
    Participant

    i have wanted to have my DNA done for along time now. maybe one day when my kids are grown and every extra penny isn’t being syphoned away by all of their school activities, sports, music lessons and everything else.

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