August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16096
Christina, thank you for your kind words. It IS still in our hearts, …. it’s in our collective consciousness …. when we research and understand the resources and logic of their life …. when we feel what that life was like, then we will know what they found important… what they would have ceremonies for… how they would dress….. what they eat…. and if we listen, the ancestors will speak to our hearts and show us the WAY.
You have a good heart. We need a thousand like you. That’s why I picked on you 😉
Saponitown is now 950 members strong….. that’s a pretty sizable tribe.August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16103
OOh I see you are one of those Ornery teaching Uncles, LOL just kidding:D
My husband said yesterday we should all get that T-shirt that has the wallet and a heart and it says being Indian isnt here (pointing to the wallet) it is here(pointing to the heart)August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16108
I really don’t know if other tribes have tried to establish a mockery of Southeast tribal use of turkey feathers. I think probably it is just a knee jerk reaction to something they are not aware of. Your right about the 50$ sweats and the trinket sales. Your also right about education being the answer to ignorance.
From my understanding, based on the history done and the stories from the people themselves, the Southeastern Souian peoples all started out in the Ohio Valley region surrounding and a part of the Hopewell cultural area. This area was a center for trade and it has been theorized that a huge trade route came through the area from the south, down the Mississippi delta, down to Mexico and connecting up with the South American trade paths. I used to be told that our Mexican brothers gave us corn. Growing up I always thought this to be a strange story but later I found out that it was true. Some time around the years of 1100 to 1200 there was a big calamity that effected the regions ability to sustain the large populations. That is when the Lakota, Dakota, Nakota etc. went west onto the Great Plains. Some went South and the rest moved on East. It may have been that around that time that the old stories about over hunting happened. Also the Northern tribes where pushing out too and battles were fought over territory pushing different tribes in different directions.
Depending on what area a tribe lived in, this often would influence greatly their connections to thier environment and subsequently their spiritual outlook to some degree.August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16109
Originally posted by Lynne Pepper
Thank you friends, for these informative posts.
As I read from Dreaminghawk, and Collins, and Saponi1….the traditions that have been revived by the western plains Indians, may be a valuable model for the reclaimation of the ways of eastern tribes. It was instructive to realise how short a time ago the west had to do something to keep their traditions alive. Its never too late.
Thanks again for all the work.
Thank you Lynne that is exactly where I see it too.August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16112
I would like to thank everyone for the civil tone during this discussion and to Dreaminghawk and Saponi1 for the articles and links.
I study religons off and on and I some how have remained ignorant about the whole New Age issue. I have studied about Spiritualists and read some on the history of Theosophy which supposedly is a part of where New Age thinking comes from. I know that various philosophies are used from differant religons like the Shakers,Quakers, Handsom Lake, L.Ron Hubbard, etc. I know that they studied shamnism and its various forms from different peoples including Native Americans. I guess I don’t understand what New Agers may be doing in regards to attending Pow-wows or what their precieved connection may be.
On the issue of the use of animal symbols and crystals, I know that the Cherokee were supposed to have used a huge crystal and placed it in an arch to transport it around. I know that the use of stones and crystals in ceremony is not alien to Native traditions. My Great Grandmother used a headache remedy wraping a stone in a bandana and very tightly wraping this around the forehead. I have also understood that various clans and families in Native tribes utilized animal symbols and behaviours.
Why are the New Age people going to Pow-wows and smudging unless they have permission?
If they don’t have permission they shoudn’t do it.
What is the definition of New Age?
I know that some people consider others that meditate or that are non-Christian to be New Age or people that maintain an Earth centered religon. I have even heard some singers and musicians are called New Age.
My main beef with Spiritualists/New Agers is the buy my new book/cd thing and their vegatarian syndrom or that some of these folks think that just because they discovered a spirit that talks to them that they are an authority of some kind. I also think that they are off in many ways from my own spiritual perspective on a couple of other topics.August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16118
There is so much new age stuff on the internet, and I dont even want to go there. And here in Michigan if new agers showed up with a drum, they would be thrown out on their buts, in my opinion all new age faith does is steal from Indegenous people, Wiccans and Voddoo/Santaria and make it into something where they think key word think they can harness and control Creators Power by running 50 dollar sweat lodges, and it’s creepy, Read the book “Inside the New Age Nightmare” Remember that cult that wore nikes and all commited suicide because they thought they were hopping on the comet?! Yea those are new Agers, that has nothing to do with Cherokee crystal and stone healing methods ect.. or Vegans/Vegatarians or even granola eaten Hippies, LOL, totaly different thing.
here is your definition:
New Age describes a broad movement characterized by alternative approaches to traditional Western culture. This New Age movement is particularly concerned with spiritual exploration, holistic medicine, and mysticism, yet no rigid boundaries actually exist, making the term point to its own perspective on history, philosophy, religion, spirituality, medicine, music, science, and lifestyle.
So basicly no rules: no rules, even we as Native People have our own so to speak comandments and accountability
And I can speak from first hand, because before I found my path on the red road, I was a very confused young woman, and had some interaction with some New Age folks, they thought it was fun to play with powerfull things (Not of Creator) that they had no understanding of and it scared the crap out of me, I saw some creepy stuff…still trying to forget.
Oh and I am not interested in the game of “Lets find your Chakra”, which I believe they stole from the Hindu people
And that is that for that: about the spirituality-energy vampire, sweat lodge stealen, energy vortex, black robed nuts.:DAugust 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16120
Christina says >>>> OOh I see you are one of those Ornery teaching Uncles, LOL just kidding
Naw……. I’m just a smarta$$ sh*tstirrer 😉
Well, because of this, Becky is calling me “mule whisperer”
Some things really bother me. The rift between the many red factions is at the top of the list. Becky and I are all about truth and unity. It breaks my heart to see ndns putting each other down when I know that is playing right into the hands of those who would like for us to disappear.
KenAugust 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16121
LOL thats funny hehehe:D Becky must have her hands full!
I agree, I think there have been, people who are still out there trying to destroy our culture. And I think it is time to stop them, becaus there are people out there who believe the lies. Or just say things because they think they know and you cant tell them any different. I worked in a wharehouse last year doing office work and pulling pallets, a good portion of them were Jahova Witness, which I have respect for their way, but it isnt mine, and they kept trying to tell me I was PAGAN and that I follow the Devil. Needless to say I did not work there much longer. Some of the meaness just comes from hate and ignorance.
My favorite Lie is when I go to protests and predom white people yell in my face telling me, that they are honoring my people by plastering Ndn mascot heads all over and going shirtless with what they call war paint. ahhh their killen me
You know I am really happy the Indian Issues board is active! I am actually excited about it! It lets me know there is so much more to us than genealogy(which is very valuable) but I like to know what is goin on with my peeps communities.August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16124
Some folks here might not know about the mule whisperer.
There once was this group of newagers 😉 who wanted to return to a simpler time, so they bought a farm and packed up their crystals and tarot cards and moved to the country. (That’s not easy to do on bicycles) They wanted to grow their own organic vegetables. They didn’t want to polute so they bought an old mule to plow with. They put him in his traces and hooked the singletree to the turning plow and said giddyup….. He just stood there swishing his tail at flies. (This bothered some of them… he might hurt a fly, you know) Well…. nothing they did would get him to move. They smudged him…… cast his horoscope…. shook crystals at him……. read from Sunbear’s book ….. nothing worked.
Finally, they got on line and found a mule whisperer that stayed not too far away. All the reviews said he was better than any horse whisperer…. always got results. So they called him and he said he would be right over. Directly, an old sappony man showed up wearing a turkey feather in his fedora. They were so impressed to be in the presence of such a powerful medicine man… they thought maybe he would bless their crystals after he straightened their mule companion out.
Well, the old sappony looked around and found a piece of 2 X 4 about 4 feet long. He walked over to that ole mule and wound up like a baseball player….. he hit a homerun up side that mule’s head. The mule’s eyes crossed and he shook his head and looked at that old man. The newagers were aghast…. Several of the men fainted. They were screaming at the old man. WHAT ARE YOU DOING???? You are supposed to be a mule whisperer.
The old sappony leaned on his 2 X 4 and said, “Well, first you got to get their attention…. then you whisper.”August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16126
AAAHHHHHHAhahahah ohmy gosh that’s hilarious!!! LOL LOl I have tears, I am going to have to remember that one!August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16133
In all honesty Collins, you can not always know who is new age at a pow-wow–there are always some good clues. But again, you can not always be sure. I attended a pow-wow a number of years ago where a woman attended that turned out to be the high chieftess of a coven, she walked right over to the drum placed her forehead and hands on the drum without permission–that pow-wow is going down hill.
I also was at another pow-wow where a man came in a gold lame’ cape, equipped with a staff, topped off with a crystal, he was a druid high priest…the gentleman was asked to leave the circle–but the pow-wow stopped long ago. I’ve seen a women decked out in a pretty strange out fit claiming to do the “Eagle Dance.” This pow-wow was talked about for quite awhile–because of the ‘power animals,’ ‘crystals’ and ‘the ancient Cherokee dance that had been hidden for along time–but was now allowed to be displayed–from all accounts it looked like Tai-Chi” I could go on and on–that pow-wow too ended.. However, It is difficult for the South East to be taken seriously because of many of these types of instances, and the ones Cristina has shared.
One of the most insightful parts of the National Musuem of the American Indian Pow-wow was actually the things the elders had to say about the origins of many of the dances. They encouraged the young peopel to learn the old dances, innovate yes–but learn the old dances so they can be passed down as well. And how they had been changed by the competition pow-wows. I can not go into the total speech they gave but you can read some of the thread on Pow-Wows.com. Competition pow-wows do have a place in our culture, however the traditional pow-wow, gathering is probably my favorite.
Cristina since you are up in the land of the Anishenabs you would have enjoyed the exhibit they shared with their women in the traditional applique dresses ‘scrubbing’ similiar to a side step, they moved their arms up and down at the same type, without leggings. The elders explained that in the past the women did not use leggings. There were many stories that had to share.
One of my firends use to complain that it was not right that out in the southeast at some pow-wows they are strick on who can dance, what they can wear etc. He was from out west and felt everyone should dance. I basically told him he was from an environment where 95-98% of the people were born into their traditions, had families to make regalia, past down stories, etc. So when one or two people show up at their pow-wows in SD, without regalia, they will not out number the people of the community and you still have a good dance. But out here when you have a pow-wow and everyone is allowed to wear whatever,
come into the circle in street clothes, you end up quickly with some of the examples above.
Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with turkey feathers, one of the Chickahominy has a beautiful turkey feather bustle–I’ve seen many turkey feather fans. Plus there are what they call ‘legal eagle’ feathers that are air brushed to look real, as well as ‘hawk’ etc.
I also, have to apologize about the Indian names–I certainly do not want anyone to feel that they should not have an Indian name. I am trying to be honest and share those things that actually cause some of the misunderstandings. Again, I believe this is a good thread–some open dialogue.
An awesome web-site with indian news is Indianz.com, they also have a forum called “Free for All.” They get pretty brutal over there so I wouldn’t jump into the fray without lurking along time to learn where they are coming from. Pow-wows.com is probably the best place for Pow-wow information Traditional pow-wows and contemporary–there are great discussions about beadings, crafts, dance styles and sources for dance videos etc.August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16138
Yee, I love scrubbing it is especially fun when You get a good drum JAM!
I dont know if you can see my regalia in this picture but that is all my own aplique work.
And when you get into the whole priestess druid, druid thing that is Wicca, and you will find that there are alot of traditional Wiccans who would never do that, and that is where I say that the New Agers steel, because true wiccan people would never disrespect native way like that, just as you would not see a native person walk right into to a Wiccan ceremony, vice versa, and if there is an interaction it is by invitation only.
With native news I usually frequent Indian Country Today, an acquaintance of my freelances for them sometimes.
I should not be shocked but what new Age people do anymore, but it is really just sad, Iam sad for them, they are so spiritually lost. Ok well I will continue this later, I am on my way to sing for the folks at American Indian Health, talk to yall later.August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16147
It is so dangerous for these people to offer 50$ sweats. Sweats can get down right baking and if the folks running it aren’t careful people can be injured.
I guess my ancestors have really been watching out for me because I never have got involved with the types of New Age folks you guys have seen or heard about. When I get on the net I usually stick to looking for things like history or maybe a specific topic like Oaxaca Mexico, plants or beads. I never really have typed in New Age before.
The story about the Mule Whisperer was hilarious. It reminded me of my cousins one time slapping their horse Buckshot in the rump with a pingpong paddle. Boy that horse took off like lightening. That was one arnery horse…lol
Thanks again for you guys I needed the laugh.August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16154
LOL….. the first time I heard a version of that story I thought about an event from my childhood. I was raised on my grandaddy’s tobacco farm. We had an old mule named Mollie. She worked good most of the time but when she got tired she would just quit where she was and wouldn’t budge. My uncle was trying to get her to go one late afternoon and he finally held her reins and hit her across the nose with the singletree. His wife hollared at him to not hit the mule again in front of the children… to take her around behind the barn if he needed to hit her again. My uncle said, “Hell, woman, if I could take her behind the barn then I wouldn’t need to hit her!”
My other uncle was bad about kicking the mule in the belly when he got frustrated. We had just bought a new Super A tractor and Maxie got frustrated and jumped down and kicked that tractor in the belly hard as he could. Broke his foot and was laid up all summer. I thought it was a whole lot funnier than he did 😉August 24, 2005 at 2:57 pm #16167
Thats to funny!
I had cows, chickens, pigs and 2 horses(horses for a short period of time they were to expensive to maintain)
But no mules, my husband has some good stories of mules when he would go to Mexico as a child.
Speaking of the hubby he says I have to go get ready, to go to a baptism.
Here let me ask you brothers this question? Do you think we as a community Ie: this Forum should always support people to express themselves, even if it is challenging and painfull. ANd do you think a relative know matter how close or how far the blood line out, should be made to feel like they should alienate themselves from us via a disagreement, or should we attempt to squash the disagreement? This is coming from a post on “The Other Blackfoot” thread here on the board. I think it is an interesting topic, and would like to discuss it. Peace, and Ill talk to ya laters
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