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May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6388
Hello All, well this is very interesting, the Indiana connexion is too cool, how many of us have had our families in that state, certainly mine!
Our family history is Blackfoot Cherokee, I have only tracked one line in the family but many others look as though they have been in that state for many generations.
If the old warriors from the Sixsapaha from NC/VA, were there as early as 1815 then it holds true for other folks in the south to travel there in the 1860 to call that state home., also the news on Dorsey and Gatschet is very interesting, the many dialects of souix all contain commonalities so Iam sure that we can find a very close sounding living dialect close to our Tutelo ancestors.
There will be dialect differences but if we ask for a linguists help we might get very close to how it should sound, also I’d ask if anyone in Ontario still knows a few word.
For some reason, I believe that the name of the last know speaker of Tutelo was “North Wind” has anyone seen this?
Red Hawk, thanks very much for the postings.
BTA, TomMay 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6389
I heard the other day from someone at Six Nations that there are still Tutelo speakers up there.
Geez, my fibro fog has been bad (bad short term memory, symptom of fibrmyalgia). I hardly remember any of this thread from last May. I sure must sound stupid sometimes.May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6390BessParticipant
My line does not go through this part of Illinois or Indiana. I don’t have anymore information on the Blackfoot Cemetery or the Blackfoot Church in Pike County, IN. I just came across this site only a few days ago. Presently, my time limitations won’t allow me to devote anymore efforts in this area for awhile. I’m sure, others on this list can pursue this lead and dig up more by going to the Pike County, IN. USGENWEB site. The Blackfoot cometary in Monroe Twp. is listed there.
I want to clarify another point. I am not making contributions to this list for the purpose of making a summary presentation down the road on the general subject of the Eastern Blackfoot. Nor am I providing information for others to make a general presentation on the Eastern Blackfoot. My main purpose is to aid individuals on the list in finding material (genealogical and historical) to narrow down the sphere of investigation, to aid in backing up their oral claims of native ancestry in the Southeast,in general and Eastern Siouan, in particular. Even though there is some documentation on the Veney line, I also seek the same assistance for myself from the list.
On reviewing one of the previous posts, there seems to be a little confusion about the content of my statement on the relation of the Tutelo at Prophets’town to those people claiming Blackfoot ancestry living in Southern Illinois, who self identify as the “Southern Illinois Blackfoot”. Let me restate my point, with a few additional facts, to undo any confusions.
In my earlier note I concluded that “the Tutelo at Prophets’ town may indeed be the source of some of the ‘Blackfoot of Southern Illinois’ that have been mentioned on the list”. And I went on to say ” ..it is possible that some of the Tutelo at Prophets town migrated to Illinois after the attack on Prophets town in 1811 and or after the defeat of Tecumseh’s forces at the Thames in 1813″. This statement is straightforward. Note the stress on the work “some”. Which implied that other claims of Blackfoot from that quarter my have a different tribal root. There was no suggestion that all claims of Blackfoot identity in Southern Illinois had to be traceable to the Tutelo. Rather, I said some may be and left the door open to other sources should new evidence arise. This position is quite valid when one considers the following:
First, the Tutelo at Prophets’town were relatively close to Southern Illinois (with in 100 miles). This is further supported by the fact that the area of Southern Illinois with which we are discussing is integrated firmly with the area around Prophets’ town by a common waterway. Such waterways were the typical mode of transport at that time and greatly facilitated such movement Both areas are a part of the Wabash drainage system–Prophets’town sat on the Wabash River and Southeast Illinois was bisected by the Little Wabash River, which emptied into the Wabash down stream.
Second, Two of the most significant tribes at Prophets town, the Kickapoo and the Winnebago both had villages in the region of what became Effingham and Coles Counties, Ill., before and after the battles at Prophets’town.( 1811-13). It is said by local historians that many of the warriors at Prophets’ town returned to their established villages in the outlying areas, located in the parries and woodlands of Illinois and other parts of Indiana after the suppression of Prophets’ town. Therefore, one can easily imagine, some of the Tutelo returning with fellow fighters of these other tribes to Southern Illinois, etc. Given that the Winnebagos were the only other Siouans at Prophets’stown, most likely Tutelos, stayed close to them. According to William Henry Perrin, the editor of “the History of Effingham County Illinois” (.Baskin Historical Publisher, Chicago 1883), the Kickapoo lived in effingham and surrounding counties. He also noted, “South of the Kickapoos were the Winnebagoes and Delawares.”, page12.
Consequently, I stand by my original conclusion. I am aware that there is some oral history that says Sihasapa warriors (from the Dacota) came East and were possibly the ancestors of present community of Blackfoot in Southern Illinois. Well good. That does not contradict my statement, since my conclusion recognizes that possibility alongside the Tutelo. If I find some documents supporting the movement of the Sihasapa I will gladly make that known. And of course, the same applies to the Siksika (the Algonquin Blackfeet). But of the various possibilities on hand, the Tutelo stand on the firmest ground at the present time. Without question the document above from the American Anthropologist affirming the presence of Tutelo at Prophets’town establishes the Tutelo at the right place, at the right time to be the ancestors of some “Blackfoot indians” in Southern Illinois.
Bess.May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6391
I like the way you’ve argued that. Thank you.
There’s just one technical problem. It belongs on the other thread. (hehe.) Do you want me to move it, or do you want to? I got confused too. I started reading this one, thinking it was the thread we were talking on the other day and I thought I was going senile, since I could scarcely remember saying any of that stuff. But it’s from May, so I guess that’s not too bad.
You gotta watch that Tom. He’s a sly one. He likes slipping in those little curves. hahaha. Good one, Tom.
In all seriousness, though, I need to caution you, the theory that the Blackfoot ID is a marker for Eastern Siouan of the NC/VA Piedmont is a theory held by me and maybe half a dozen other researchers. There are others who don’t hold with it at all. You’re building a good academic argument which refers to our theory, which of course I’m happy to see, but it makes me nervous, in a way, that I’m just hearing my own theories re-echoed in a loop. So, I have to find out if it is an echo, or if somebody has reached the same theory from another angle. Either way it’s fine, but I needed to know which it is.May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6392
Hello All, well ofcourse there are other tribes called Blackfeet etc, and probably there is some blood from the Dakotas there, aswell I have heard that there was a Blackfoot woman from Montana that married in the 1840-50s to a white guy had lived in a trading post with many of her children, no doubt her family is still there but Iam not sure what state it was in, could have Illinois!.
The word Sioux is a French term that has been aaround since probably the late 1600s when they started colonizing the lower Red River valley in Manitoba, Canada, it could even be a Metis , (Michif) word.
If you look at this material and put it into historical context and then overlap later history it totally makes sence that there would be a move from NC/VA into this area, I would suggest to ask the Blackfoot of Southern Illinois where their oral history points too!
I live in Blackfoot country here in Canada, and we do have some Sioux from Sitting Bulls band here aswell Iam familiar with them..
I statred looking at my families history early, for me when I was about 16, we had many old people in the family,when I talked to them the oral history was the same,I came across this Blackfoot-Cherokee with my aunts and cousins, tracing the family back into NC and looking at the nearest people behind the Cherokee where the Tutelos and others w/ unfamiliar sounding names except one Sissipaha, eastern Souix, the first part of the word clearly to a Siksika or Kainaiwa person means black, I thought that perhaps because ther was algonquins in VA, this may have had some bearing, then my Moms 1st cousin said to look near Hertford County? Nc since he thought that it was still closer.
After some time in GA with a linguist we began talking about the NC groups, Sissipaha came up and we tried to start translating the names of these tribes at this time I started looking into the Blackfoot Cherokee connexion with a friend Pete Gregory an Anth. Prof from LA, over time many other people started coming forward with this same ID.
Then I put Blackfoot Cherokee into the web and came up with the angel fire crap and was really irked at that, I kept looking and found this sight!
Do the math! Everything points to your work Linda, I think that we are all here because of simailar work and not because we think this is right we know its right.
One can only circle ground zero before you come in for a landing.
For what it’s worth, old trails always lead home, there are still Sixsapaha people out there looking and will in time show up, I hope that they have done thier home work and know that Saponi Town offers atleast a new direction in their search for the truth.
Best To All Tom.May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6393
howdy Tom —
I agree 100% — there are a lot of really weird Cherokee websites and it sometimes turns my stomach, so I know what you are talking about when you say “angel fire crap”. Altho I am not farmiliar with that website, I have seen the concept all too often. My first couple of years of researching my ancestry I waded through a lot of that crap and I eventually exploded, and called all those groups fakery and quackery. I found websites sayin’ Cherokees were the lost 10 tribes of Israel, and groups that let you join their “tribe” without any documentation at all. Still others let you join for 30 dollars, et cetera, i could go on and on . . .
I had to become very skeptical for a while, and maybe I went too far into skepticism, and this web site and Linda & others have helped me over come this. But I am still comin’ out of it.
I wanna applaud Linda & others here, because I think they are sifting through the nonsense and trying to get to the truth, with a “ballanced” view, knowin’ some things ARE true, and some are bogus, and getting their facts documented, not just heresay. What is bein’ said here makes sense from the stand point of my family history. I can not prove it to be true and I must say that, but evidence is better than no evidence, and Linda has and/or is gathering quite a lot of that it seems.
vanceMay 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6394
Thank you very much for your appreciative words. They mean a lot to me. Ironically, I’ve been feeling the opposite lately, that I’m not really unbiased. I can’t be anymore, all this has evolved into what I believe, not just what I think, and I know from a thousand examples out there, that you see what you believe. There is no such thing as objective, factual proof. If you expect a quark to go right, it will go right, if you expect it to go left, it will go left. (A quark is a subatomic particle studied by quantum physicists.)
And then there’s all the Genealogy from the X files that keeps showing up in my inbox anytime it pleases. For example, about three or four times in the past year people have written me about the same surnames and locations, but they don’t know each other. They’re considered different “races.” They live in opposite corners of the country and know nothing about each other, but they both write me out of the blue, in the same week.
If you put the hard data about them down on paper, it doesn’t say anything conclusive, but when you’re the one it’s coming to in such a striking way, it’s captivating.
I would like very much to be able to document all this in a way that would be persuasive, to even the most skeptical, but it’s so hard. Especially in a situation like this where there’s a big pile of circumstantials making the case. All those little bits need their citations in order, their references verifiable. It takes more than spare time to accomplish.May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6395
Hey all, Anisnabe is the Ojibway term for themselves.
it looks as though we are trying to prove what we know, any good science has to be able to with stand scrutiny and I know that my family can, we know who we are and where we came from, as does most others on this forum, that initself is all the strength that we need, I won’t get into it other than to say as a first nations artist Iam secure in who Iam! all the best TomMay 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6396
Yes, Anishnabe is what the Ojibway call themselves. It means “original men.” http://www.tolatsga.org/ojib.html They are Algonquin.
Maybe your friend was pulling your leg.May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6397BessParticipant
There is a lot of good material in your answer. It will take me some time to digest it all. So I will be asking many questions over the next months and making additional comments.
I share your assessment of the political meaning of Tecumseh’s movement, but you have provided us with a much more concrete and lively expression of it than I have been familiar with. You have a good grip on the local situation which you obtained from the stories handed down from your ancestors and coupled this well with your historical research. The strength of this assessment is the recognition of the sharp contradiction between the oppressed and the oppressor, between the merchant capitalist ( traders, settlers etc.) and our native ancestors that could not but end in fierce resistance. This situation drove our ancestors to take the noble and progressive stand they did. Our knowledge of this struggle always gives us strength today to advance our current struggle against the monopoly capitalist who continue the humiliation and oppression of native Americans.
I agree with your overall position on the insolvent of the Dakota and the Lakota Sihassapa in Tecumseh’s movement based on your oral history and the oral traditions of Dakota researchers out west. I only emphasized the Tutelo connection in my previous comments because it is this group which is overlooked and ignored when talking about Prophets’town and the war of 1812. It fact I have seen a documented reference to Tecumseh’s visit to the Osage Indians (Siouan) in the Missouri Valley (1808-09) in which he tried to get them to send warriors to Prophets’town. Since Tecumseh was already in the area of the western Siouan tribes, it is only reasonable to assume that he extended his trip further North to the Dakota and Lakota to solicit their participation. Even in the absence of written accounts( at this point), your oral traditions are what are decisive in this case, especially since this tradition has been established in an organized way for nearly a century, with many people contributing. As to some of the specific forms and character of the interaction between the Tutelo and the western Dakotas and Lakotas at Tippecanoe, I reserve judgement until further investigation.
How has the family history gone? Have you had any results in tracing your lines and that of other members of your “Blackfoot community” into the Tippecanoe region of Indiana? On the basis of your previous comments, identifying several surnames, I did a limited search. I was able to locate CLIMER/ CLYMER, BURNETT and CARY surnames in a few Tippecanoe County, IN records( 1820s). Found also is an important lead on a Burnett family in Tippecanoe county that played an important role in the events around Prophets’town. This family is documented as being Native American in one of its lines descending from the Pottawattiamie tribe. These results suggest that persons with these surnames at Tippecanoe could well have been the specific lines of the ancestors of the community of Blackfoot in southern Illinois. Of course only a more thorough examination of these records can reveal if this connection is sound. Could you restate the surnames that you are looking for (Illinois blackfoot) so that I and others can be sure we are not overlooking some.
Thanks for giving a narrower description of the location of the Miami Reserve along the Wabash River. It is now possible to study more carefully any link ups with contemporary (1812-13) or later movements of the Eastern blackfoot to your area. In fact, documents show that some Saponi/Tutelo/Nottoway mixed families left NC/VA between 1810-1850 and ended up in the immediate vicinity of this Miami Reserve. They came to Vigo, Sullivan, and Vermillion Counties, Indiana. Some of their surnames were BASS, NEWSOME, ARTIS, HAITHCOCK (HAISCOX), STEWART, COUZEN, BEATY, WILSON, RILEY, PATTERSON, RUSSELL and LEWIS. Have you ever come across these names in the Miami Reserve? Are Vigo, Sullivan, and Vermillion counties bordering the Wabash River in Indiana within or adjacent to this Miami Reserve? Does this Miami Reserve encompass the same land spoken of in the recent suite (Sept 2,000) filed by the Miami Tribe of Oklahoma in St. Louis District Court, demanding a return of this land to their control? Could this suite be a source of genealogical information for families we are discussing?
Given the closeness in time and place one only hopes that we, eventually, are be able to find some documents that tie in these families– Bass, Newsome, Haithcock,–with some of your lines in Illinois.
Thanks Bess.May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6398
1. I’d like to know more about Tecumseh and the people who were with him. Now that I know my ancestors were there at the same time tecumseh was, and now knowing there is a “Blackfoot Church” in a neighboring county and it says the Church were named for a local tribe of Indians, and knowing that church was there at the time of Tecumseh (wasn’t it?), and being told there was a “Richey” in the cemetary of that church — well
2. Now to address another point. Someone asked if Indian people who were in the East and were considered “more civilized” got along with their fronteir counterparts.
My answer is “maybe” and “maybe not”. The U. S. government might have used the “Civilized” peoples to track and hunt down their “Wilder” relations. The government was always trying to pit one tribe against another. The one doing the tracking always thought the government would then treat them better, andthis the U. S. government almost always promised and then reniged on that promise.
But livin so near to Tecumseh you’d think they were allies, since it was his policy to unite and not divide the tribes. But I’d prefer proof if I can find it, trouble is there may be no way to prove or disprove something like that.
well, I am more interested in Tecumseh than I was before. Got my attention!
vanceMay 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6399
This “civilized” thing was used both ways. There is an elusive reference I heard quoted but haven’t tracked down. It speaks of a Tutelo woman being married to one of the head men administering the Indian territory in PA during the time it was controlled by the League of the Iroquois. It was theorized that the Tutelo, having been exposed to the British and not only able to speak English, but some even literate (remember Griffith’s school in 1713) were valuable for diplomacy purposes for this reason.
What I’ve seen in my family is that this exposure to western ways meant acquiring crafts or skills that enabled them to make a living on that side of the line, and since the line had long since gone on over them, that was pretty handy.May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6400
can you tell more about “Griffith’s School” in 1713? I am not farmiliar with it. I recall someone mentioning the surname “Griffin”, but not “Griffith”.
One of my Waylands married a “Griffith”. Other Waylands (more than one) married my Richey’s. I know nothing of these Griffith folk, but as I said in another post, 2 children of this marriage (Griffith/Wayland)are mentioned in the Swetland Rolls of Cherokee as living with a “Brown” surnamed Cherokee family.
I have never researched the Griffith surname, and I suspect strongly they were NOT Cherokee as those surnames (Griffith & Wayland) are not common amongst the Cherokee and we are certain they did not live in the Cherokee Nation East from other sources, so they were from some other tribe & were “adopted” I guess into the Cherokee on the Swetland Roll of 1869.
vanceMay 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6818rosebudsaponiParticipant
Charles Griffeth was the instructor hired by the College of William and Mary to teach the children of Ft. Christanna. The program was called the Brafferton Institute. There’s not too many records on the school as everything was burned in a fire during the late 1700’s I believe was the date. Anyway, there was another Charles Griffeth that taught the Tuscarora also. Has us curious as to whether it’s the same or not. There’s really not much to tell other than that. Not a whole lot to go on. I would almost bet my life on the fact that he probably had a few children with the women of the fort. I’ll dig through what I have and see what I can come up with.May 17, 2002 at 6:33 pm #6897
A Griffith man married a Wayland girl in Arkansas in the 1850s and their 2 kids found their way somehow to the Swetland Rolls of Cherokee of 1869. That Wayland girl was sister to one of my g-g-grandmother’s sisters.
Waylands came from SC to Ar 1814 or 1815. I know nothing about the Griffith surnamed male who married the Wayland girl.
That’s about as close as I have ever come to finding direct ancestors on any roll. Ha ha.
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