August 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #11467
I hadn’t heard that term before. The article states they spoke an Iroquoian language of the Hokon-Siouan. Seems like a contradiction. I’ve understood them to be Iroquoian. Thomas McElwain believes they formed the basis of the WV Mingo. They were adopted into the League en masse and never really acculturated that well. Then, when the League lost it’s Pennsylvania holdings, he believes that many Erie adoptees fled into the mountains. He speaks Mingo, which he learned as a child in Elkins, WV. It’s a variant of Seneca.August 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #11469
I looked up Hokan-Siouan and here’s what I found at http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/NatvAmlang_LanguagesofNorthAmerica.asp.
Hokan-Siouan___ The Hokan-Siouan family is thought to include a number of linguistic groups, but the classification of some of them is still disputed. Among the groups generally considered branches of the Hokan-Siouan stock are Muskogean, whose languages include such tongues as Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, and Seminole, which are spoken in Oklahoma and Florida; Caddoan, composed of the Caddo, Wichita, Pawnee, and Arikara languages found in Oklahoma and North Dakota; Yuman, with individual languages (such as Cocopa, Havasupai, Kamia, Maricopa, Mohave, Yavapaí, and Yuma) in Arizona and California; Iroquoian, to which belong the Seneca, Cayuga, Onandaga, Mohawk, Oneida, Wyandot, and Tuscarora languages spoken in New York, Wisconsin, and Oklahoma, as well as the Cherokee tongue found in Oklahoma and North Carolina; and Siouan, which includes Catawba (in South Carolina), Winnebago (in Wisconsin and Nebraska), Osage (in Nebraska and Oklahoma), Dakota and Assiniboin (in Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Nebraska), and Crow (in Montana). Languages of the Hokan-Siouan stock are also found in Mexico and parts of Central America. These Hokan-Siouan languages tend to be agglutinative; various word elements, each having a fixed meaning and an independent existence, are merged to form a single word.August 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #11471
I knew “Hokan” sounded familiar but just couldn’t put my finger on it. Could be that the author of that piece using the term “Hokan-Siouan”, may have been confused or may have been using an earlier term which has fallen out of usage in linguistics.
The Amerind Language Family contains 583 languages (today), spoken by 18 million speakers. They are classified and subdivided by Greenberg (1987) (see also Ruhlen, 1987), quoted by Cavalli-Sforza, et.al., 1994, as follows: (some of these subfamilies contain dozens of dialects that most people refer to as separate languages.)
“I. Northern Amerind includes as subfamilies, Almosan, Keresiouan, Penutian, and Hokan.
“A.1. ALMOSAN consists of Kutenai (a single language), Algic (Algonquian and two isolated languages, Wiyot and Yurok) and Mosan (Wakashan, Salish, and Chimakuan); it covers most of Canada south of the zones occupied by Eskimos (the Arctic) and the Na-Dene (northwestern Canada and central Alaska). It also extends to the Mid-west south of the Great Lakes and to New England.
“A.2. KERESIOUAN includes Keres (essentially a single language) and the Siouan, Iroquoian, and Caddoan families; it covers the rest of the Midwest almost to the Atlantic coast.
“A.3. PENUTIAN is a northern group including musch of Oregon and California, with outliers (Tsimshian) as far north as Canada; in southeastern North America, a Gulf group includes the Muskogean family and a few isolated languages; in New Mexico, Zuni; a southern group is found in Mexico (Huava, Mixe-Zoque, Totonacan, and the Maya in Yucatan and Guatemala.)
“A.4. HOKAN is a northern group with small clusters in northern and southern California, Baja California, and parts of Arizona; a southern group in northeastern Mexico and Texas.”
[The other Amerind language families other than Northern Amerind, are
II. Central Amerind (three major subfamilies).
III. Chibchan-Paezan (two major subfamilies).
IV. Andean (two major subfamilies).
V. Equatorial-Tucanoan (two major subfamilies)
VI. Ge-Pano-Carib (or Macro-Ge/Macro-Pano/Macro-Carib) (three major subfamilies)]
from same source:
“Geographically, Almosan and Keresiouan are found only in North America; Penutian, Hokan, and Central Amerind are found in North and Central America; Paezan, Chibchan, and Equatorial in Central and South America; and Andean, Macro-Tucanoan, Macro-Carib, Macro-Panoan, and Macro-Ge only in South America.”
The surprising thing about Greenberg’s classification of world languages into ever larger related groups is how well it conforms to the later DNA work of Cavalli-Sforza’s group in “The History and Geography of Human Genes”
BillAugust 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #11472
I intended to caveat this……
This is one linguistic theory which does matchup closely with DNA population studies, but there are competing theories.
BillAugust 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #13164
OK, this may be too little, too late but I saw some discussion about George Green in this thread…I have a George Green married to Nancy Sinkey (dau of Wm. amd Mary McCartney Sinkey and Nancy’s sister Sarah Sinkey married to a William Green. I show Nancy born in 1815 so I am assuming that she married this Green in Ohio because Wm & Mary moved from PA to Ohio about 1811(12). Cindy says she had a George Green living with Richard Sinkey in PA….don’t know if this is the same George Green or a son of George Green. I don’t think this Nancy lived in PA. I do find the spouses of the Sinkey men interesting given what I’ve seen here…..my info is as follows:
William Sinkey (son of Richard Sinkey & Brighid)
m. Mary McCartney
1) Sarah (b. PA) m. William Green
2) Betsy (b. PA) m. Daniel Heath
3) Martha (Pattie) (b. PA) m. David Cooley
4) Richard, Jr. (b. 1789 PA) m. Helen Wheeler (Michigan Sinkey’s)
5) James (b. 1796 PA) m. Mary Twigg (b. 1801)
6) William (b. 1800 PA) m. Mary Mayfield (b. 1798)
7) Jane (b. 1804 PA) m. Luke Potter
8) Daniel (b. 1806 PA) m. Elizabeth Steimetz (2) Margaret
Clayton (3) Jane Iles (this branch stayed in Ohio)
9) Mary (Polly) (b. 1807 PA) m. Clark Cooley III
10) Matthew (b. 1808 PA) m. Nancy Huston
11) Nancy (b. 1815 OH) m. George Green
I think I have seen the names of each of these spouses on SaponiTown in one place or another. I have not looked much at the Greens but I know that Cindy has….I think there is a George Green on the tax list for Barree Twp, Huntingdon, PA.
DebAugust 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #13196
That was great. I read about the Erie (first link). There is the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe in NE Oklahoma. That article is saying they are probably part of the remnants of the Erie people.
vanceAugust 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #13198
Wow!:) Its so good to read some of these older posts once in a while. This is so interesting even still. I have a hard copy of it somewhere. And there’s those names I keep looking at! 🙂 Love & Light, Lynella.August 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #21143
I brought this thread forward and made it sticky. We often refer to this group and there is a lot of good information here.
TechteachAugust 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #21146
What is a sticky thread?August 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #21153
Itis a thread that stays at the top.
TechteachAugust 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #23319
Brenda Ferrell SampselModerator
“…..At the beginning of the American Revolution, a large part of the Cayuga tribe moved from New York into Canada, where many of their descendants live today. Other smaller bands moved to Ohio and joined with the Seneca of Sandusky. In 1832 a treaty was written between the United States and “The New York Indians”. Under the terms of that treaty they were moved into the north-eastern corner of Indian Territory.
In 1881 a group of over 100 Canadian and New York Cayugas traveled to Indian Territory to join with the band residing there. Some of the first arrivals were adopted into the Seneca Tribe, but the groups arriving later were turned back to Canada by the government Indian Commissioner, saying that the Seneca chiefs could not adopt foreign Indians…….”
“The Seneca-Cayauga Tribe
……There was a well-known confederation of Iroquois Indian bands drawn from throughout the Northwest that included the Mingo (from the upper Ohio River), Conestoga, Cayuga, Mohawk, Oneida, Tuscarora, and Onondaga (driven into Ohio by early colonists) and the Seneca of Sandusky (who had lived in New York at the outset of the American Revolution). After the war, the Cayuga moved to Ohio, where they were granted a reservation along the Sandusky River. They were joined there by the Shawnee of Ohio and the rest of the confederacy.
In 1831, the tribe sold their land in Ohio and accepted a reservation in the Cherokee Nation in Indian Territory. They were a prosperous people who, preparing to leave Ohio, heavily loaded their baggage (clothing, household goods, tools, seed) onto a steamboat to sail to St. Louis. The trip to their new home took eight months plagued by delays, blizzards, disease, and death. Upon their arrival in Indian Territory, they found their lands overlapped those of the Cherokee. Another band (the Mixed Band of Seneca and Shawnee) also traded their Ohio lands for a tract in Indian Territory which was wholly within the Cherokee Nation. An 1832 treaty- the first made by the U.S. with the immigrant Indians within the boundaries of Oklahoma- adjusted the boundaries and created the “United Nation of Seneca and Shawnee……………”
“Chronicles of Oklahoma
Volume 11, No. 4
JOS. J. FENSTEN.
“…The Seneca of Oklahoma were found in historical times on the southern shore of Lake Erie. They were never allied with the Seneca of New York but were probably a subjugated tribe under their jurisdiction. Chief Good Hunter assured Henry C. Brish that they were a remnant of Logan’s tribe and that Logan was a Conestaga or Mingo maternally. Brish says, “I can not to this day surmise why they were called Senecas. I never found a Seneca among them. They were Cayugas—who were Mingoes—among whom were a few Oneidas, Mohawks, Onondagas, Tuscarawas, and Wyandots.”1 …”August 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #23320
Brenda Ferrell SampselModerator
Cayuga Migration & Surname BUCK, Seneca of the Sandusky
“BEFORE THE INDIAN CLAIMS COMMISSION
CAYUGA NATION OF
Docket No. 343
P l a i n t i f f s ,
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Decided: July 20, 1972
“……The Cayuga Nation, a member of the Six Nations, occupied territory
in New York State i n the vicinity of Cayuga Lake. After the Revolutionary
War, i n which the Cayugas had fought on the side of the British, the
tribe splintered, with one group enigrating to Canada, a second group
moving to Western New York State, and a third group removing to Ohio. …”
Notice the surname BUCK and also note the verification of a migration to OHIO. I see no reason why some Tutelo would not have been part of all three of these splinters, rather than merely of the group that immigrated to Canada.
BrendaAugust 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #24119
Thought I would add this link to this story line also : http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohcnewma/finley.html Part of an autobiography of one of the missionaries to the Wyandot mission at Upper Sandusky.
TechteachAugust 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #28923
Tom wrote: Hey Vance well my folks were in White county during the very early 1820’s to 1840’s, I may have seen Hawkins there on a partial 1820 census record , there are many names on that census that are NC Cash’s Collins Lowery’s etc.
tech, I really like your post, I wondered what Blackhoof aka Blackfoot had to do with the Cherokee’s but your cousins theory is a little off though atleast for my family, no offense though.
Vance did you see the post’s that Bill did, where there were Hawkins moving around with the Hardins ? Carey’s, Collins and Gibson’s in my line!?
Even though this thread is a couple of YEARS old…LOL…I can tell you this. The decendents of Blackhoof’s followers are known today as the newly Shawnee Tribe (there are 3 Shawnee Tribes all here in Oklahoma: Absentee Shawnee, Eastern Shawnee, Shawnee) also known as the “Loyal Shawnee Tribe” (because they were “Loyal” to the Cherokee Nation). Just before Blackhoof died him and his followers came to an agreement to cede all Ohio lands to accept a Rez in Kansas. Blackhoof died before the removal to Kansas, however his son Charlie Blackhoof became the leader of the Shawnees after his death and led the Shawnees during there time in Kansas. Charlie married a Shawnee women by the name of Neh-nex-see for which the town of “Lenexa, Kansas” is named after, other parts of the old Shawnee Rez today is known as “Shawnee Mission, Kansas” as the Shawnee Mission Indian School was located there, and the building is still located there today as a historical marker and museam. Charlie Blackhoof became elderly and died there leaving Neh-nex-see and Widow farm women, who continued the role of leadership after Charlies death. Because of more and more White settlement moving into the area and the Shawnees wishing to remain peaceful, they took it upon themselfes with Neh-nex-see leading them to go ahead and cede the lands in Kansas and to move to Oklahoma and join the Cherokee Nation. Neh-nex-see also died before this removal took place, however (I don’t know how many children they had) Charlie Blackhoof and Neh-nex-see had a daughter by the name of Alice Blackhoof who continued her life on here in Oklahoma, although I don’t know of her playing in any leadership roles or not. This is getting close to modern times as many older ones still alive today remember Alice still being alive when they were younger and they say she was a old short, skinny, mean women, in fact I have heard some tell a story of when the were kids how they once stole a piece of frybread from the table (the older Indian ladies here are known for there cooking, espicially large meals but you don’t dare touch there food until the say it is time to eat) and she quickly grabbed a broom stick and chased them through the field…LOL!!!…they were surprised of how fast she was in her old age espicially as small and fraile as she seemed to be. Alice married a shawnee man by the name of Charlie Blalock and today there are MANY MANY grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great grandchildren here of Charlie and Alice…including one still living daughter who is 94 years old, and believe me she is a MEAN old women…LOL! Anyhow because they were never “forced” to Oklahoma they never recieved any land here, all land that they did have (and still have today) is held in trust for them under the Cherokee Nation. In fact there Tribal enrollment cards read “Cherokee-Shawnee”, so even though they are under the Cherokee Nation, they are still treated as a seperate entity within the Cherokee Nation. However just a few years ago the applied for federal recognition as there own distinct Tribe and was granted that and are now known as the “Shawnee Tribe”. Here is an article from “Indian Country Today” that explains more about there recognition.:
TAHLEQUAH, Okla. – More than 130 years after the Loyal Shawnees became a part of the Cherokee Nation, the United States Congress has finally given them federal recognition.
It came as Title VII of the Omnibus Indian Advancement Act recently passed by Congress.
In 1866, the Loyal Shawnee signed a treaty with the Cherokee Nation and were absorbed into the larger tribe. Although they retained their culture and tradition, they were considered legal members of the Cherokee Nation.
“We have worked with the Shawnees for years to achieve this,” Cherokee Principal Chief Chad Smith said. “They are proud of their heritage as Shawnees, and proud of the dignified way they have gained their federal recognition.”
Over the past four years, the Cherokee Nation passed two, separate resolutions which supported the Loyal Shawnee bid to be restored as a separate, federally recognized tribe.
All that is needed to make it official is the signature of President Clinton.
Although recent news reports suggested the president wouldn’t sign any executive orders concerning federal recognition, White House aide for Native American affairs Lynn Cutler said, “If they went through legislation, recognition through a bill that was passed, the president will sign that.”
With recognition the tribe will be referred to once again as the Shawnee. Tribal Chairman James Squirrel said he was very happy about finally achieving federal recognition for his tribe. “We are just waiting on the president to sign our bill.”
Squirrel said the Shawnee appreciate the efforts and backing received from the Cherokee Nation in attaining federal recognition. “We appreciate them very much.”
The chairman said recognition meant the tribe could administer some of its programs rather than having to go through the Cherokee Nation. Although the nation will continue to administer some programs, Squirrel said there are grants and funding available only to smaller tribes for which the Shawnee will qualify.
Part of the agreement states that the Shawnee cannot take land into trust within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation. Asked if the Shawnee would attempt to reclaim land or put land into trust in another state, Squirrel said, “Our people are here in Oklahoma, so there are no plans for anything like that,” Squirrel said.
The Shawnee will no longer have to work as a government within a government as they have in the past.
“Everything we have done, we have had to go through Cherokee Nation and they have approved most of it.”
For now the tribe plans to continue working out of tribal headquarters in White Oak. The 11 council members will work toward the transition following recognition.
There are approximately 8,000 members of the tribe, Squirrel said, and already people are lining up to enroll.
A spokesman for the Cherokee Nation said the Cherokee constitution will allow members of the Shawnee tribe to continue dual enrollment.
Although a lot of work remains, the Shawnee tribe is savoring the victory of being recognized as a distinct entity and not an extension of another tribe.
“We’re so happy that we can do this to further help our people, to be ourselves rather than Cherokee-Shawnees or adopted Cherokees,” Squirrel said. “We can be our own people.”August 13, 2004 at 11:27 pm #28925
Elkriver you live in the area my people were do you know of the Sulpher Bend Cemetery outside of Fairland Ok it used to be on the Nesoho River but was moved when they damed it.
John D. Blalock,
Fairland, Indian Territory.
Dear Sir: –
You heretofore filed with the Commission, certificate from Commission on C
itizenship, showing the re-admission to Cherokee citizenship on June 30, 1
888, of Sarah A. Blalock and four children; also Cherokee marriage licen
se and certificate showing your marriage on May 4, 1893, to Miss Sarah Jones.
My gggrandmother and father who are cherokee are in there this is my grandmothers side.
I have Blalock or Blaylock’s that are connected to these people also Daughterys.
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