What's Offensive II?

This topic contains 70 replies, has 5,871 voices, and was last updated by  Buffalowm 13 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #2273

    Buffalowm
    Participant

    ADMINISTRATOR’S NOTE: I split this half of this thread away from the first half and moved it here so that it would not be in the general public’s eye. We exist for the newcomers trying to find lost family. They don’t need to be withered by wannabe witch hunters — lkc

    Tuscarora Kid,

    You are not representing our people in a good way. If you know anything about we true Natives then you would know that our elders would not stand for the disrepectful way you have expressed your opinions . My grandfather (Tuscarora) first wife was a Coharie and I have never heard anyone that I know that is Coharie speak in the manner in which you have. I also do not find it admirable the members of the tribe married first cousins to keep the blood pure. That is obsurd and further more that is against the principle that Creator has instilled in our hearts and lives. If you would take time to think about it, when we discovered Columbus lost at sea, if he thought that we were from india we could not have been to fair of complextion. Based on what you say, I would be excepted because of my skin tone, but you know what I would not want you to be a representative of my tribe, because you bring disgrace to all Native Americans. You need to ask Creator for forgiveness for the hatred you feel in your heart. We (natives) have always been people of pride, respect and love for our fellowmen , no matter what race they are. If you “mix” with other Native Americans than your children will be pure. You should never marry or mix with relatives, that is incest. I pray that Creator will touch your heart and change it too.

    Please do not respond if you can not do so with respect.

    Haliwagirl

    #20532

    Coharie Roy
    Participant

    Derick & Mike, aka, mdsmokedancer,

    Setting all the other issues aside for the time being, what I’m most intrigued about your posts is your claim to Tuscarora ancestry for the Coharie. I’m not being doubtful, agrumentive, accusatory, or detracting. I genuinely would like to know what evidence you have which traces us back to Bertie County and to the Tuscarora. I would SOOOO like to prove this for myself. However, I’ve never seen the confirming documentation to make this so even though I’ve always strongly suspected that we Coharie have solid links to the Tuscarora. Dr. Stuart Berde, in neither of his three or four papers on the Coharie was ever able to show any definitive linking documentation to the Tuscarora even though he strongly suspected it. Of course, Berde wrote his research in 1982, so perhaps new information which I’m unaware of has been discovered. The closest Berde was able to come was that (and I’m going on memory here so don’t hold me to it) a white man by the name of Thomas Pugh was a trustee of the Indian Woods Tuscarora Indian reservation in Bertie County circa 1760. Now we all know that Jacobs is a common surname found among the Coharie. (The surname Jacobs is also found among the Tuscarora in New York today.) Berde says this same Thomas Pugh moved to Sampson County circa 1764, and thereafter, we find two neighbors on land adjacent to Thomas Pugh’s land with the surname Jacobs.) Now, that’s pretty good circumstantial evidence linking those Coharie who have a Jacobs line (and that includes me) to the Tuscarora. But, it’s not the smoking gun I’d like to see. Soooo, I’d really, really, really like to see your evidence/documentation. Nothing would make me happier. I’ve read Don Avasco Grady’s paper on the Coharie and he wasn’t able to make the link. I’ve read Robert K. Thomas’ paper on the Lumbee (and by reference the Coharie) and he wasn’t able to make the link either. Neither was my great uncle, C. D. Brewington able to make the link in his booklet, THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES OF EASTERN NORTH CAROLINA.

    By the way, who IS the oldest living Coharie you (Derick) referred to? Is it Mr. Amy Jacobs?

    Derick, I’m almost positive that you and I are related. You’re absolutely right about all the Coharie being related. When I first started doing my family tree and began discovering that the same ancestors showed up in different lines, I was chagrined. But when I read George E. Butler’s booklet and the various laws enacted by the state of North Carolina that legally voided any marriage between an Indian and a black or between an Indian and a white, I realized that oftentimes, there was no-one else to marry but your cousin… hopefully your second or third cousin, but many times your first cousin.

    Derick, did you know that when Fort Neoherooka fell to Col. Moore in 1713, he took some 20 to 24 escaped black slaves prisoner who had been living with the Tuscarora inside the fort. That’s a matter of record. In fact, one of those escaped slaves helped Chief Hancock design the fort. It seems likely that they weren’t just living there temporarily, but rather that they probably had lived with the Tuscarora for years and most likely had Indian wives and children by those Indian wives. The same holds true for early white fur traders (say from about 1650 to 1715. In fact, one of the books I’ve wanted to read for many years now is THE JOURNALS OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, kept in the archives of South Carolina. It lists the names of many white fur traders, and many of our surnames pop up in those journals.). White fur traders often had Indian wives and children by those Indian wives. It was a common practice. Now, when I say that the Coharie are tri-racial, THAT’S what I’m talking about. The mixture of both black and white into the Coharie came in very, very early – probably between 1650 and 1750. You’re right though about there being very little black mixture into the Coharie during the 1800’s on until present as it was both illegal and extremely frowned upon. I’ve seen with my own eyes several instances of persons ostracized by their own family amongst our people.

    Well, I’ll quit for now. Gotta go take my daily one hour speed walk. (Dieting and exercising is so much fun… NOT! 🙂

    Roy

    p.s.- Mike, what does the md in your name (mdsmokedancer) stand for? Did you once live in Maryland?

    p.s.s.- Oh yes, Derick and Mike, I almost forgot. I wanted to say that I whole heartedly agree with you 100 % about you’re either Indian or you’re not. The forum had that conversation some months ago (back in the fall as I recall. I was in the minority during that rather heated debate). As far as your position that oftentimes (and history is littered with government officials using non-pure Indian ancestry as a wedge to grab Indian land) designating someone, or groups of someones, as tri-racials becoming a prelude to legislating them out of existance, is a reality I both can’t and won’t dispute. I not only understand that fear, I wholeheartedly agree that it’s a very real and justifiable fear. BUT, that fear has to be squared with the reality of having both black and white ancestors as well as our Indian ancestors. To do otherwise is to exclude and deny some of our grandfathers and grandmothers and that’s both wrong and unchristian. I personally see no contradiction is saying that I’m Indian, AND, that I have black ancestors and that I have white ancestors. Who I am is the family and community I was born into; the Coharie. Who my ancestors are is simple a statement of fact. Whether they were horse theives, or medicine men, or drunks, or warriors, or whether they were black or whether they were white is something I have no control over, except to say that I honor them nevertheless, for had they not existed, I would not be alive today.

    #20552

    Coharie Roy
    Participant

    .

    http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:AhodYfM3rgAJ:www.ah.dcr.state.nc.us/sections/hp/colonial/Nchr/Subjects/parramore.htm+%22colonel+james+moore%22+journal&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=15

    A captured Tuscarora revealed that Hancock had withdrawn to a strong fort further up the creek and on the opposite or west side. Barnwell pushed on toward the place and before daybreak on March 5 was in position within perhaps a few score yards of its walls. An examination through a “prospective glass” convinced him that Fort Hancock was a model of its kind. Built under the direction of a fugitive South Carolina slave named Harry, the structure was described by Barnwell as “strong as well by situation on the riverbank as Workmanship, having a large Earthern Trench thrown up against the puncheons [or split logs] with 2 teer of port holes,” the lower tier furnished with plugs for the holes. A maze of large tree limbs blocked any approach, with sharpened reeds and canes placed among them “to run into peoples’ legs.” The structure also had four circular “Bastions or Flankers” (meaning projecting outworks) to facilitate firing in several directions at once.50

    Footnotes:

    50 Barnwell, “Journal,” VI, 44-45.

    #20558

    quest for facts
    Participant

    Now wait one minute here…Diedre, I realize he angered you but in your anger you told him to take his blanky blank tribe and shove it. I am not Coharie but those people you just told him to shove are my people too. See Kid here is descended from some of the very same folks I am. So don’t tell that boy to shove my people. Yeah I took offense to that

    Linda

    #20561

    Buffalowm
    Participant

    Kid,

    I asked you kindly to not respond to my last comment. I do not want to have this immature conversation with you again. Please do not ever use my name again on this forum in your responses.

    Linda (Carter) , please step in and put an end to this madness. It has gotten out of hand and I would not want anyone new to the forum to be subjected to it. There is too much anger and it has gone far beyond the reason for the forum.

    Again, Kid I am asking you to not use my name or respond to anymore of my past responses. If you do it will be considered harrassment and I will take it personal and may be forced to take legal recourse against you.

    Haliwagirl

    #20585

    lynne pepper
    Participant

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tuscarora kid

    [B]Chwe’n,

    Lynn Peper,

    Me:

    Spell the name correctly…please…I can kinda go along with your spelling of bred as bread…but get a grip.

    Kid:

    Those people who dont descend from a tribe but claim to have ancestry, they dont need to claim being native at all, wether its from my tribe or watever tribe!!

    Me:

    I assume that you are willfully missing my point, so I’ll spell it out for you, Kid. Your “tribe” has only been a “tribe” for the last few decades. Or did you think we didn’t know that? Same for other NC tribes, other than the Cherokee. So when you get on your high horse, we all know how low to the ground that horse really is. And how did you get to be a tribe anyway? The same way paper is chased. You are from a reanimated tribe. It makes it triply funny when you go on about how much “blood” you have.

    Kid:

    I do get the point of this forum!! If someone has majority native blood and wants to learn about there heritage thats awesome!!!

    Me:

    The other point is, you don’t know how much blood…god I hate using that word, its unscientific and so backwoods 19th century….but OK, I want to come down to your level….you don’t know how much blood anybody here has.

    Kid:

    But when you got some knuckle head who found out he/she has one native ancestor they dont need to look and try to prove themselvs to be native cause they are NOT!!

    Me:

    again, you don’t know that. You have no idea what the respective geneology of the posters here are.

    Kid:

    And those tribes that are almost gone, do u know why they are almost gone?? Because they have bread out and thats that!!

    Me:

    again, you suppose that we are ignorant of your NEW status as a tribe. Which means that in 1920, your status as a tribe was just a story that you, yourselves passed around.

    Kid:

    No one needs to try to produce native blood out of nothing!! If your blood and tribe is gone its gone!!

    Me:

    Really? This must be why you’re so afraid that some one will say you have african blood. It kinda messes up the claim, you know, the claim to your staus as a NEW, I mean, reanimated tribe.

    Kid:

    Just go by what you were bread out with black, white, etc!!! Im trying to prevent just what you are talking about, which is my people becoming extinct!!

    Me:

    But the state of NC has reanimated you, haven’t they? Of course they have. They reanimated the Haliwa, the Ocanechee, the Lumbee…surely you know what the people in these tribes look like….don’t get ignorant on me here.

    Kid:

    The only way to do that is keep the blood pure!!

    Me:

    pardon me for saying this, but zig heil.

    You know kid, I don’t think you’re for real. You can’t possibly be as ignorant as you sound, and still be a NC native from a reanimated tribe. Its just not possible.

    Kid:

    Those people who are almost extinct like you said, they dont need to claim native,because they dont have the blood to, and if they do it makes it worse on the rest of the good blood natives!!

    Me:

    Oh, you mean mixed and “dying out” like the coharie? You still don’t get it, do you? I live in NC, and my family has lived here since before colonization…and then again, part of them were colonists. I know the part of the state where you live, and what the people look like. You’ve gone WAY beyond the point of protesting too much.

    kid:

    If your native blood is gone its just gone!!!!!! These tribes that are extinct just didnt get to be indian again, they might get money and recognition but they will NEVER EVER be native!!!

    Me:

    Really? Sorry to alert you to facts, but the state calls the shots on that one, and then there’s the big enchelada, the federal government. These entities can take away your little card and rip it to pieces. And then where will you be? Back to your family stories.

    Kid:

    No one can do nothing to bring there blood back its GONE!!!! they do not get reanimated the only thing they get is a bunch of non-natives(black and whites) walking around pretending to be native!!!

    Me:

    the hypocracy of your statements are, in fact, hilarious. Remember, your tribe IS reanimated. and by the way, go tell the Pequoits that they are too white to be Indians. And then go tell the Lumbee that they are too black. Do you actually bother them with your nonsense?

    Kid:

    I would rather have my NATIVE ancestors blood in my body, than the government on my side any day!!!

    Me:

    Sure you would. I guess you’re not going for fed recognition then? Right on! Let them stew in washington.

    Kid:

    They are made up of just a bunch of bull crap!!!!

    Me:

    like reanimating your tribe.

    Kid:

    As far as blood quantam we need to tighten down on that so tight that the good bloods wont be able to hardley breath!!!!

    Me:

    Now I know that you’re just jerking people here around.

    Kid:

    Keep non-natives OFF any of the roles!!!!

    Me:

    the only natives on the dawes roles are the Cherokee, in NC that is. Which means that you aren’t. Another reason that I think you’re just a troll.

    Kid:

    We could have clean roles if we keep the non-natives off of them!! And im pretty sure alot of people up here would contaminate the roles quite a bit!!! Trust me lynne, with what you just told me in your post, you sound like a hobbiest!! Hobbiest dont know jack squat about native culture!!! And you dont know jack about it!! U dont call what we wear a costume!!! Thats offensive to NATIVES!!!

    Me:

    yeah, I know its not called a costume. *I call it a costume. It’s a costume when eastern woodland people dress up like plains indians. That’s a costume. You can call it regallia all you like, and under normal circumstances, I wouldn’t say anything about it. But next time you put on your modified plains indian costume, think about it…..if you can. Also, where are your tatoos? I assume you have them all over your face and body. Why of course you have. Authenticity is your hallmark.

    Kid:

    Its called a regaila, if you were native you would have known that!!! And the biggest sighn that i know you are not native and a hobbiest is that a hobbiest is kind of a secret word us natives use for all non-natives who try to act like that they are indian!

    Me:

    chuckle. A secret word, that’s cute. If you had any sense you’d just say tourist.

    kid:

    LOL!! And plus nobody makes arrow heads, dry deer skins, or build tee-pees any more!

    Me:

    that’s a shame. My dad taught me to knapp flint, cure skins, and built a small branch house. I guess you get the tee pees from your plains indian costumes. Did I say tee pee? No, you said Tee pee.

    Kid:

    !!LOL!!! Oh, and just a liitle tip, the natives around here didnt live in tee-pees!!!

    Me:

    Yeah, I know. For the last 360 years, they lived in wooden frame houses, just like everyone else did. Grew tobacco, farmed, and practiced animal husbandry, just like everyone else did.

    Gee, its a real shame that you never learned anything from your parents on how to live, or how to behave yourself.

    But then again, I don’t think you actually are an Indian. Notice I said Indian, not native. Nobody I ever grew up with called themselves natives. Plains Indian “regallia”…snort.

    Be well, Littleman

    Lynne

    #20596

    Deirdre
    Participant

    To Kid, Coharie Roy, Linda,

    I understand your pain at what the US govt imposed on your people, but you are blaming Black people for something (s) they did not impose on you. That is out right wrong. If others on this forum can get”pissed”, why can’t I?

    When I came to this website I read the home page that said “Searching for Saponitown”, and thought I would be able to find out more about my beloved ancestors and piece my history together; but it appears that you all are very exclusionary, which is the very thing that whites have created in this country-the very thing they did to you= what they invaded and took from your people.

    Kid, you did not answer my question. What is your purpose on this thread? The originator humbly asked if it is considered offensive to say Black Indian? Much has been written since it was started and here you are putting a real stink on it. My goodness, I had no idea that I was so dispised by a people who are supposed to be so “mother earth loving” and into the spirit of a person.

    Roy,

    why is Black blood dreaded among your people, but white blood is acceptable when they are your first and current oppressors? Why, WHY!??? it sounds really sick.

    To everyone,

    I think I really got fed up with being looked at as some disease, so I feel right in saying, “Now hold on a minute, you are talking about MY ancestors! DOn’t disrespect my people that way!” Just as Linda said to me not to respond with take your people and shove it. That is in essence what you are saying to me with your harsh comments about being mixed. And what if you found out you were mixed? Would you crawl under a rock and die or change your tune? DO you hear what you are saying about Black people? Do you hear yourselves!!??? Something is grossly wrong here. Grossly. I think you should change your website to something like “NDN Exchange” because you have not been loving to your Black NDN cousins and I no longer feel that you even care about finding ME. At first I thought it was just one voice, but one by one, others here have voiced or hinted at not wanting to be personally associated genetically with Blacks. That is VERY HURTFUL. What if I said the same about you?

    I think all of you who have degraded us have degraded yoursleves because we would not even be wasting our time if we did not share some common blood; one drop, or thousands of drops. And being Native does not make you special; it just makes you Native-that’s all. It is something to honor and respect as are Black people in this country and around the world and in your own back yard.

    Last words for Kid,

    Yes. you absolutely are a racist. By saying that you have Black friends sounds just like the white people who say “My Barber is Black and I love him”, but would lynch his son if he even thought about copulating with his daughter. With your hatred you are adding to the sickness of this capitalist society that has brought you and your lovely people to near extinction.

    I feel that I will leave this forum. It is unloving and this is not why I signed on. I signed on to find my roots… ALL OF THEM so that I could better educate my daughters who have more NDN blood than I. But in this moment I am not so proud to be of NDN descent. There are other websites more accepting than this one. Hell, maybe one called “BLACK NDNS UNITE” I don’t know, but I’ll find some people somewhere who are… well, I’ll keep that to myself. At first I wanted to meet everyone and I considered joining the annual gathering, but have decided that it will be too exclusive and I will not feel welcome. I may be experiencing some of what drove my ancestors away from their “clan”. I think you should all really be seriously ashamed of yourselves.

    Deirdre

    #20623

    collins
    Participant

    Normally I would agree with you Haliwagirl about ignoring the ignorant, but I don’t think these three people should be allowed to insult the whole board and get away with it. If our moderators are not going to step in and deal with the know nothings then civility is going out the window.

    Three people have violated the rules of the board by attacking personally and by attacking the group as a whole. They should be removed and banned. We are all here to learn and share, not to be condemned and insulted by the likes of these upstarts that think they know something. They don’t know what our families went through and they don’t know that some of us have ties to several Nations past and present.

    I don’t have just one ancestor that was Native American Indian I have many.

    They have denigrated not only my ancestors, but the ancestors of several people on this board. That is intolerable for Saponitown. To ignore it is to accept their statements and tolerate their behaviour. We must draw the line at some piont.

    #20631

    saj
    Moderator

    Tuscarora Kidd,

    I understand your wanting to defend your family and your pride in being Native Tuscaroran. I personally don’t tell people I am Native American because I have a mix of Scotch-Irish, Swiss and Native. I simply say I have some Native American ancestry. And then only when I’m asked. Because I don’t want to offend people such as you. I as I have said before feel comfortable with being an Eastern Souian Descendant.

    This has gotten kind of ugly and out of hand.

    Why don’t we put this to rest?

    And Deidre, please don’t leave us.

    I hope newcomers don’t enter into this thread and get scared away. Sue J

    #20632

    Buffalowm
    Participant

    Collins,

    I totally agree with you, in fact I have pleaded in the last few post that Linda put a stop to this madness. I meant for the newcomers that may be reading the post before they decide to jump in…. to ignore the stupidity …..and to know that is not how we do things on Saponitown. I hope Linda will do something soon. I do believe that there is just one person (I’m sure we all know who that is) ..who is really getting everyone else that may seem to be just as disrespectful riled up. ..and if not for that one person they probally would not have said some of the things that were said….. just my opinion…..

    Haliwagirl

    #20635

    Buffalowm
    Participant

    Collin,

    I told this foolish child in a previous post that he is trying to hard to convince others that he is “full blood” It sounds like he is trying to convince himself……Maybe there is a fly in the soup in his bloodline….

    Haliwagirl

    #20637

    Dreaminghawk
    Moderator

    Well…. this is an important thread and should not be deleted. It gets to the core of what we face when we embrace all of what we are. Having said that, rude and disrespectful posters do not have to be tolerated. After being warned to calm down and stop attacking, should the behavior continue, that member should be banned. This problem could be averted by shunning rudeness from the offset. The rude and disruptive poster can be ignored.

    Everything else I would have said has been expressed by one member or another.

    Ken

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