What's Offensive?

Originally posted by quest for facts

Hi Lynne,

Long time since we head from you. You know if everyone celebrated Thanksgiving the way you all do there would hardly be anyone to cook since just about everyone is mixed.We wouldn’t get anything in my house.

Linda

Hello Linda!

I have been wanting to post on the forum for quite some time. In my profession, Xmas is all consuming, and Xmas begins before thanksgiving ( which we all know is the day that the English Thank the Indians)…and extends into January…which means that I work for the Post Office.

Also I have had my R arthritis come out of remission….but I am beating it back little by little. I beat it when I was 18, and I’ll beat it again. Then I had some more skin cancer…which in my line of work is pretty much an occupational hazard……then my husband’s son came over from England around thanksgiving….and of course you know what we did! We had him cook dinner to thank the Indians. Since they had never heard of thanksgiving…..and we laughed so much when he was cooking, he finally had to beg us to tell him what it really meant, and further said that when he returned to England, if he told him one thing, and it really meant another, HE’D be laughed at.

We said that it really was to thank the Indians, though some misguided people thought it was to thank god. We told him ” if someone kept you alive, gave you food, told you what to eat, gave you food resources that would live and grow in this new place…who you going to thank?” He is now in England telling everyone that Thanksgiving is the day the English thank the Indians….so plan A to subvert Thanksgiving is already underway on an international level. You’ll be glad to know this, I am sure.

I have spent a lot of time reading up on the Indians of the southeast. Perhaps I can post some of the stuff I’ve read if its not too boring.

Good talking to you, Linda. Its been too long.

Regards,

Lynne

Originally posted by Deirdre

Thank you for your post Lynn. Thank you. When these words come from our hearts it touches others, as you have touched me; and

I think our ancestors can smile.

Deirdre

Thank you for your warm reply. It heartens me.

Yours,

Lynne

You know, I studied history in college and was awarded a degree in it and I learned then that there is no scientific basis for the term “race”. Then it perplexed me that I’d be asked what race I belonged to. I always relpied, “the same one as you do”, but I was received as a smart alec. I was even called a racists once, and I decided that it was impossible for anyone who did not create the divisions among men to truly be what is caclled a racist. Then I thought about it more and determined that we have been viewed as backwards, ignorant, and primitive because we have basic geographic and “cultural” differences from Europeans which, unless you are of the mind to receive something different from your own and unles you open yourself to learn, you wind up manipulating, controlling, and ultimately abusing others in some way. Even today, I find myself sending a slient message to my white sisters to slow down; in your movements, in your sleech. What’s the hurry? Every moment that the Great Spirit allows us to be here should be valued. How can it be valued if we rush through it?

No Lynne, you are not boring me. YOu are spreading the truth.

Warmest Regards,

Deirdre

Originally posted by lewis

Hi Lynne its Lewis. Im glad to know, im still on your good side.

It looks like your Native American Ancestors passed down , the very best, Native American values to you.

Hello Lewis,

There were some gems in the chaff, to mix metaphores. I think that “live and let live” can’t be claimed by any one people….but the kernel of the idea was most stressed by my Dad. He stressed it whenever he saw someone who was not doing it, and then renforced it as a concept in order to direct us to do it. He felt that way about the landscape too. He was not one to tear down things in order to plant other things that weren’t originally there. He stressed that when he saw other people doing that as well. It applied to everything….and when you apply it to everything, then I think you can claim it as a uniquely Native American way of thinking. Racoons, possums, rabbits and deer would always be problematical when it came to gardens, but he always said that they had to have their bit of it. If it was protected from predation, not all of it was protected. The birds and animals had to have their share of what was grown. He left a fine cherry tree just for the birds. He said: “I can always buy cherries, but they can’t”

Lewis:

I did nt’ know Live and let live was a Native American expression, but im not entirely surprised either.

Me:

Like I said….I think it can be claimed IF you take it all the way, and apply it to everything.

Lewis:

Lynne although, im from Jackson MS originally, i lived in Greensboro NC from ages 16-19.

Me:

Gee, Greensboro has grown a lot. I try to avoid it myself, because the streets are a mess.

Lewis:

So i know a little bit about the Occaneechi-Saponi, of Orange and Alamace Counties NC.

Me:

You know Lewis, I don’t know anything about them either. Mr. Holt, who I belive is the medicine man, used to talk to my daughter when she went to Alamance Jr college. He did a healing on her boyfriend, and called her sister. He called out to her and said he knew she was Indian because of the way she stood and watched, and he said that Indians do that. I had to laugh ( with glee of course) because he’s right. We do it without even thinking of it. My Dad told me once that Silence is a sign of respect. Mr Holt asked her about her geneology, and she couldn’t answer him. Then I felt ashamed. Under ideal circumstances, if such a person, who deserves high respect, asks you that kind of question, you SHOULD be able to place yourself by lineage….she just knew a few names to throw out, but she needed the trace. I have failed in my duty to give her the trace. I am trying to do just that, but….getting the trace on my father’s mother is not easy……and just tracing his father’s side of the family has produced results which are a little shocking to her…being as the folks in Halifax county seem to have been marrying their own relatives for a long time. But I’m trying to find the time to work on it.

Lewis:

Is that the branch of Saponi you descend from?

Or is it, the Haliwa-Saponi?

Me:

It has to be the Haliwa. My father always said that. He was from Aurilian Springs, Halifax county. His mother was a Smith, and in her line are Green, Bass, Hux, Pitts…though I don’t have the line of who begat who and when. Just a jumble of names from a first cousin that I can no longer get in contact with. On his father’s side, there is Shaw and Bobbit, that I have found listed as Mulatto, but then again, they are marrying their cousins, and going off to live with them at different times, and it must have been grand for them, but its a mess to trace. My Dad was placed in an orphanage in Raleigh, under sad and contentious circumstances…and though he described himself as a Haliwa, his bitterness kept him from pursuing the issue. No one went to his mother’s funeral, and I found out last month the year in which she died, 1969…..no one bothered to tell me. You could say that he had crossed two knives when it came to her.

Lewis:

Sappony tribe of Person County , or some other Saponi?

Idont’ know for sure, what tribe my Mother’s side of the family were, but i seriously doubt there Saponi.

However i ha ve a cousin, who’s blackfoot on her father’s side, she’s probably Saponi.

Maybe you are like me, A Native American from another tribe just visting Saponitown.

Although im welcolme here, i try not to post much, because im not Saponi.

Me:

Well gee, Lewis…seems to me that there is enough topic to cover many issues without getting into who begat who, …you know?

Anyway Lynn could to hear from you.

Me:

Always good to talk to you.

Regards,

Lynne

Sincerely Lewis Liddell Jr.:) 🙂 🙂

This is a very strong topic for a long time even now I get somewhat offended when people concieve me as black. I used to complain all the time when I filled out forms that there was no reference to other that you could mark for race they would have black, white, hispanic, even non-hispanic but that was it.

I have always referred to myself as tri-racial black white and indian no specific order though. I am what I am it just sad that I know nothing about the white part of my history. But I find it hard being accepted on either side. Funny Huh? I mean blacks look at me as white because of my long hair and grain of hair light complexion, but I think it is mostly out of jealousy though. Then whites assume I am black becausde I am not white enough, no blonde hair and blue eyes, this is my perception so I say where is the love?

But as long as I know, that is all that matters but I see the racism in very settle ways all the time. It is so unfortunate though. Well honestly I feel most accepted as Indian so that is what I prefer to use not ignoring the other parts at all. But we as “Indians” know the hardships we have and continue to go through, so I guess there is a mutual understanding and this is where I feel most welcome. 🙂

Holy smokes ….this is right interesting… I’ve re-rwad ALL of the posts a few times over…absorbing what everyone has said…and honstly, from my perspective…everyone is “right” in what they explain and in how they feel. It just seems a great shame to have to explain oneself at all really. I’ve never even considered doign the whole DNA thing…but examining my maternal lines I can definatively say that yep…I’m tri-racial…with surnames of Nichols, Jett, Gibson, Perkins, Collins, Cole…how could I not be? LOL I have no clue how to mathematically calculate the percentage of my maternal NA ancestry anymore than I know how to re-build a transmission *eye roll*. It matters not one iota to me. I’ve lived a “primarilly white” existance most of life growing up in OH…but when we woudl go down to the “hills” come summer…we embraced our Native ancestry there…time and place matter I suppose. I never in all my life imagined that I could , let alone would have any Black ancestry but doing this (genealogy research) had led me to a pretty fair conclusion that I quite likely have that genetic linking too….so be it. I think it is all groovy and I can’t wait to learn more about cultures and specifics about families. Inherently, at 40…I now feel like a real mix…which is okay…variety is the “spice of life”…I’d LOVE to attend a pow wow at some comfy point in time…I’ll likely be looked at funny too…I sure don’t “LOOK” the part: I’m blonde, blue eyed and pale as a loaf of wonder bread…but my great granfather was 1/2 Indian…not sure yet which tribe…that is a daunting task…but I really think everyone shoudl continue to embrace the wholedness of wence and from whom we came. It is all fascinating and worthy. Keep up the great work here folks….this is by far the most intriguing and helpful forum I have EVER attended. Race is not unlike religion…we should

embrace the one that we most identify with(for me, it’s tri-racial)…the one that most aligns with our true self eh? To do otherwise would be hypocritical…and we all know that is not a “good thing”. Good, bad or indifferent, I feel exceedingly grateful for every single thing my ancestors were and did…they got ME here. Blessings to all~~~~Laurie

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spirit

[B]This is a very strong topic for a long time even now I get somewhat offended when people concieve me as black. I used to complain all the time when I filled out forms that there was no reference to other that you could mark for race they would have black, white, hispanic, even non-hispanic but that was it.

I have always referred to myself as tri-racial black white and indian no specific order though. I am what I am it just sad that I know nothing about the white part of my history. But I find it hard being accepted on either side. Funny Huh? I mean blacks look at me as white because of my long hair and grain of hair light complexion, but I think it is mostly out of jealousy though. Then whites assume I am black becausde I am not white enough, no blonde hair and blue eyes, this is my perception so I say where is the love?

Me:

Here’s something I wrote to a science group on race:

Race disappears very quickly on a biological basis. It can’t be seen

in blood work, or genotypes.

Very late in the 19th century, the idea of race was already ditched by

scientists. This was before genetic work ups…but the values, lets

just say skin color, that they used to determine skin color in

populations, had so much variation even within close relatives, that

they discarded them. They found that these scales of color only served

to describe ONE individual person, and the parents and siblings, much

less the neighbors of an individual, were not on the same scale. This

was one of the first levels of measurement to go.

When genetics took off, in the mid 20th century, they also found very

quickly that the concept of race had no real scientific basis. This is

pretty easy to see when you consdier that about 92% of your genetic

makeup, you have in common with chimpanzees, the rest only gives you a

human form. The differences, genetically, between genders in humans

only occupy around 10% of your genes…that includes sex choromosomes

all the way to adipose fat deposits. This doesn’t leave a lot to leave

a genetic trace between races. In fact, it leaves absolutlely nothing

on a gene map. If you were reduced to a gene map of you as an

individual, it wouldn’t be possible to determine what “race” you were.

This becomes even more complicated when you know that the genes that

give you a phenotype…that is what you look like despite what

ressesive genes you carry, are composed of many genetic messages. You

may carry ressesive genes that have nothing to do with your looks.

Added to this, within the last 6 years, a whole subtext of genes have

been discovered that influence what were once considered dominant and

ressesive genes….in fact they influence it so much that the ideas of

dominant and ressesive are becoming passe.

Nowadays, cranial and skeletal morphology is used most, when looking

at pre and proto human fossils, and in trying to determine relatedness

in extinct species. Skeletal morphology has a lot of problems. Its

just one tool. In the absence of better tools, it has to do.

Faced with the CULTURAL preference of the term “race”, some fringe

scientists have started using the term Breed….like in a dog

breed…to try to encompass the visual qualities of people. But this

isn’t accepted as valid scientifically. It only deals with a phenotype

( outward looks), and ignores the genotype ( genetic material of the

individual including ressesive and dominant traits, as well as the

subtext which has influenced the phenotype)……I think that you can

see from this, that the idea of race is a primitive term that

scientists have rejected over 100 years ago.

Sadly, much of what I have said is not common knowledge. It very well

known scientifically, but its not out there for public consumption.

When talking about closely related populations…that is a group of

people who have interbred over may hundreds of centuries…there will

occur a grouping of genes which will repeat…due to dominance

supported by subtextural genes. These can give a kind of “look” to

very small pockets of population. When other genes are introduced,

like genes which are not dominant per se, but have greater frequency of

passage, it can reintroduce a brand new mix and a new phenotype within

two generations. Blue eyes are an example of this. The blue eye

allele has greater frequency than the brown, even though the brown is

dominant. Added to that, the subtexural genes for eye color will

present hazel eyes, or another mix, like green which is in fact a co dominant with brown. The subtextural genes for skin

color are even more volitile. Recently, a chromosomal mutation has been found that produces pale skin, and yet, oriental populations do NOT have this mutation, and they STILL present with pale skin in large areas of population….thus proving that skin color is influenced through a tangle of genetic interaction, which to this day is still not clearly understood.

I’m glad you mentioned mainland china. If you can recall the results

of just one generation of a chinese and european mix, you will quickly

see how the standard “chinese look” is radically changed. The way

people look is a cultural signal. Its a fixed concept in the minds of

people. It is often a social force in genetic “engineering” called

Social Selection. A lot of the products that you see in phenotype are

socially selected for in terms of frequency. Culturally, certain

aspects of human phenotype are marginalized. With forces like this in

operation, it can be difficult to speparate the phenotype from the

genotype……until you map it. And then it disappears. This is the

problem with race.

Lady Stormwalker:

But as long as I know, that is all that matters but I see the racism in very settle ways all the time. It is so unfortunate though. Well honestly I feel most accepted as Indian so that is what I prefer to use not ignoring the other parts at all. But we as “Indians” know the hardships we have and continue to go through, so I guess there is a mutual understanding and this is where I feel most welcome. 🙂

Me:

Me as well. As much talking as we do about this, and about everything…..there is just so much that is mutally understood. And of this things that are nutally understood, to explain them to people who don’t understand, would take books, and plays, and TV serials, and just years of effort. Its nice to be around other people who just know, without having to go through all of that.

Lynne