Tom

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  • in reply to: Tom's Response to our Language efforts #28822

    Tom
    Participant

    I recall your post to me about following you around drawing blood and what ever else.

    Wachinika is just wierd but hay she fits right into the “membership is more important” than sound documentation.

    I could care less if I ever see or hear from people that make up what they think is fact, research is the only way to document fact not membership.

    You don’t know who or what wachinika has done other that just show up, where’s her proof that she’s done anything, I think that maybe Diane Brody should just say she’s from NB and be up front about who she is.

    Stand up for her and go to bat Linda that’s what she wants you to do, she wormed her way in and getting what she wants’.!

    AS for knowing nothing well guess again, there’s people out there with tapes of people speaking the language Tutelo, people in the Brantford area that do hear these words almost daily, I know nothing, be assured I’ll say nothing!

    It was Wachinika that accused Barb, and barb responded to 2 of her post’s , you seem to think that Diane has done nothing wrong, well I know different, perhaps a phone call would be in order.?

    I don’t see anything remotely traditional about what happens here, it’s alway’s a reinterpretation of something else, there’s certainly no guidence from Tutelo members or even Saponi members.

    My insurrection! I didn’t tell anyone that our efforts were useless that was your statement remember.

    At one time Saponi Town was a place to quote not true anymore unless you happen to “zone out”., latley there’s been more crack addicts here than the local detox.

    When I do quit here I want prrof that my families images are deleted and my genelaogies aswell, I want nothing to do with wierd little creeps like Wachinika and several others.

    in reply to: Regalia Clothing #28720

    Tom
    Participant

    Thanx for Sharing Becky.

    in reply to: Wachinika's post #28706

    Tom
    Participant

    ………………..

    in reply to: Can someone help? #28727

    Tom
    Participant

    The v neck are scarves, and are not attached or apart of the womans clothing, ribbons on any ones clothing doesn’t mean anything everyone uses them.

    The lady in the photo is wearing just every day dress of the time.

    in reply to: Can someone help? #28736

    Tom
    Participant

    Yes I know what you are saying and yes the trailers probably are ribbon, my point is that if those are ribbons on Blackbirds family members dress ( and it looks like they are) does not mean that it is “Indian” because we all use ribbons, almost every culture and certainly in our times people can have ribbons on either store bought or sometimes applied to home made clothing.

    The trailers could be made from ribbon on the cover of the book, if you look into “ribbonwork” traditions, you’ll find that it is a method of layering and cutting and sewing that creates the patterns. I’ve done it on a machine aswell as by hand, if you look at pre-1800 clothing , bags etc; you’ll see the beginings of this tradition.

    I always look for the obvious, I try not to confuse the issues and just keep things as simple as possible, the lady is from a time that wearing anything “Indian” would have been doubtful., certainly if she wore this “down town”.

    in reply to: Nazca Lines type Indian in Canada #28481

    Tom
    Participant

    Those lines are not lines but rather where the earthhas eroded away causing small valley’s to form we call them “coullees”, I live not far from here, Black foot mine was posted by Lynella years ago.

    in reply to: Bumper Stickers #28345

    Tom
    Participant
    in reply to: Happy Birthday, Roca! #28248

    Tom
    Participant

    Hey I am sorry that I missed this!

    Roca, Happy Birthday, may your greatest fear be less than your smallest joy!

    Happy Birthday Always.

    in reply to: Lakota Lessons #28021

    Tom
    Participant

    I don’t see why Lakota is always pushed as the answer to a native language when the historic Winnebago language was completely understandable to the Tutelo Saponi people.

    NO DOUBT this was the reason why so many of the Eastern Siouan people moved into the Great lakes areas, they knew that the “Winnebago” or Ho Chunk people were thier ancient cousins that never left thier Hopewell- Adena homelands like thier cousin the Yesah people did.

    If anyone cares to research there’s plenty of information on this with references to first hand accounts of Tutelo -Ho Chunk people meeting each other in peacable terms etc.

    The Big Sandy area was probably the homeland of both prior to the 1400’s.

    in reply to: Name Change for this section #27914

    Tom
    Participant

    This is true, I do believe that the ESDA was a place for people to join and feel apart of something much larger; however because of the name change I still feel asthough the ESDA needs to be preserved as excatly that.

    We should have a body or core that people can join in, after they show on paper that they are indeed of eastern Siouan descent, as perilous as this is I still believe that it can be done.

    Names that are “core” aswell as names that have long been established can be links to supporting this ID, however names that do not, should not be disqualified rather they may lead to new families etc.

    How will the proving ground take palce ? I have no idea but we need to work on this aswell.

    When the old full blood people first married out or adopted English names is anyones guess so we do dot ahave a full list of names for all of the 12 original bands of people, but even so we can begin to start and look back at the names we do have listed.

    If your last names don’t appear there perhaps researching farther back will find those names.

    A long road is just begining, but it’s time.!

    in reply to: Happy Birthday, y'all! #27714

    Tom
    Participant

    My apologies to the Birthday people that I didn’t catch the first time around,, please have a great day!

    in reply to: Weird Question but Shoot the Breeze #27721

    Tom
    Participant

    Dan that’s not such a wierd question, there were many “War captives” that were sent to Florida and many probably were Apache people, also I have talked to several people that were of apache descent from the south, some married out of Arizona etc but in Louisiana there is the Lipan Apache people, Ebarb Apaches people, and the Choctaw APche people. Originally all Spanish slaves, if you do some research you may find some answers, look at last names, and one source not mentioned is the Creole web sites that have amazing amount of members and research, with connections to many of our peoples from the Carolinas.

    in reply to: Weird Question but Shoot the Breeze #27723

    Tom
    Participant

    If you look at any of the Louisiana Folklife sites you should find links to the Choctaw Apache people, there is several communities that belong to those folks.

    Also there are many people that may have been connected to those communities that like all people have had out marriages., so not all names etc that you run into may be complete, meaning that there is more names that tye back into those communities etc that are listed, just like here at Saponi Town.

    in reply to: Monasukapanough #27682

    Tom
    Participant

    There is reason to believe some Indians continued to occupy the site until after the beginning of the 18th century. They may have been few in number, but among the number must have been some who were descendants of others who had lived there when Monasukapanough was a large village. As late as the middle of the century some were living who knew of the burial place of their dead. Jefferson, referring to the mound which he had examined, told how “a party passing, about thirty years ago, through the part of the country where this barrow is, went through the woods directly to it, without any instructions or enquiry, and having staid about it some time, with expressions which were construed to be those of sorrow, then returned to the high road, which they had left about half a dozen miles to pay this visit, and pursued their journey.” Only those who had retained a memory of the burial place could, or would, have made such a pilgrimage.

    The exact position of the mound may never be determined, but it certainly stood on the low ground, on the right bank of the Rivanna, evidently nearer the river than the cliffs, and it may have been some distance above the ford.

    During the month of June, 1911, I examined part of the low ground in the endeavor to find some trace of the native village to which the burial mound had belonged. Nothing was discovered on the surface; all had been covered in the past years. Nine excavations were made about 50 yards from the river bank, and beginning about that same distance west of the road leading to the ford. One excavation was 30 feet in length, others were 5 or 6 feet square, all were 2 feet or more in depth. In seven of the nine excavations small fragments of pottery were encountered at an average depth of about 20 inches, bits of quartz and quartzite, and pieces of charcoal were also met with in some excavations. No traces of bones of any sort were found. The superstratum, some 20 inches in thickness, represents the alluvium deposited by the river since the village was occupied, and may have resulted from one or more freshets during the past century. The greatest freshet known was in 1877, at which time, so it is said, most of the low ground was overflowed to a great depth. When the waters receded some parts of the area were covered with a thick deposit of sand while on other sections the soil had been washed away and the surface lowered. Many stone objects of Indian origin were exposed. Axes, discoidal stones, and numerous chipped implements are mentioned as having been discovered, but now all are scattered and lost. Undoubtedly a great number of interesting specimens could have been collected at the time, proving it to have been the site of an extensive native village. Evidently Jefferson did not suspect the existence of part of the great village on the side of the river on which the mound stood. He mentioned the hills on the opposite side “on which had been an Indian town,” which may have been the more important part of the settlement, as it has now become the more interesting.

    On the Left Bank

    Much of that which precedes refers to conditions on the right bank of the Rivanna, but the great village also occupied some ground on the opposite side of the stream. The land on the north or left bank rises rather abruptly from the water, continues quite level for 100 yards or more and then becomes much higher. This comparatively level area of some 20 acres or more is thus bounded on one side by the Rivanna and on the east and north by rising ground which in some places is quite steep. On the west the cliffs approach the river. Several large springs issue from the surface on the site of the village. Before the land was cleared of timber the ground was necessarily irregular and broken, and was traversed by several gullies extending from the bordering cliffs to the river, worn deep by the waters flowing from the springs which would have supplied the wants of the settlement. The area has now been cultivated for many years, thhe surface leveled and worn down by the plow, but while it remained in its natural condition surrounded as it was by wooded cliffs, it would have appeared hilly and broken; these were the hills on which Jefferson said “had been an Indian town.”

    The central portion of the level area is the more elevated and slopes gradually to the west and east. It is believed this part has never been covered by the waters of the Rivanna although the lower ground has been overflowed several times within recent years, always leaving deposits of sand and alluvium on the surface.

    A general view of the site is reproduced in plate 2. This was taken from the high land on the north. In the foreground is the section north of the river; the course of the stream is indicated by the line of trees bordering its banks. Beyond is the low ground on the right bank of the river, with the cliffs rising in the distance.

    Many stone objects have been discovered scattered over the surface of the higher part of the level ground where they may never have been covered by water, even at the times of great freshets. The specimens have thus remained since they were lost or abandoned by the last inhabitants of the village – believed to have been the Saponi, who left the site some time before the year 1670, although some may have lingered behind. About 70 years later colonists entered the valley of the Rivanna. The ground has now been cultivated for many years and, undoubtedly, numerous objects both large and small have been broken by the plow, but some of unusual interest have been discovered within the past few years.

    The material collected on the surface consists of objects of stone, both chipped and polished, and numerous fragments of pottery, many of which bear the imprint of textiles. No specimens made of shell, bone, or metal have been discovered, and nothing of European origin to suggest contact with the colonists has been encountered on the site.

    Many of the stone implements, or weapons, are crudely made, but with edges worn and polished as a result of much use. These are seldom broken or incomplete although a number of fragments of well made polished celts have been found, as well as more perfect specimens with only the cutting edge battered or fractured, suggesting rough usage. Perfect or complete objects of the finer workmanship are not found. This fact is difficult to explain unless the better pieces were carried away when, as it is believed, the majority of the people of the village moved to another locality during the later part of the 17th century. The crudely chipped implements may have been made by the last native inhabitants of the site, thus representing the close of the stone age in this part of Virginia.

    in reply to: Monasukapanough #27716

    Tom
    Participant

    Well I like the spark! I would say if you are near these places and you can trace your family there, I’d say go for it.

    Several years ago my older Sis. and I went back to a small farming community where our family lived, we did it in rememberance to our late Mom, I swear we were not alone on that trip!

    Just go for it!

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