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If anyone wants to visit a cannon from Christanna – one sits in the Wren Yard at William & Mary.:D
Just in case someone is reading – Shawnee and Chowan mean the same thing – southerners, in Algonquian. Not to be confused with one another – it all depends on context…
Its directed research, based on community…diaspora continues community, but in new locations. Some remained…and retained more local knowledge. Diaspora disconnects community…but through cyberspace now reconnected. I am continuing the research at the local level, maybe others can build…
Still, I seem to be waiting to see if anyone besides me has posted on Boonetown, Skeetertown, and Artistown…more info would help if there are researchers out there who know what I’m talking about… Bowers Hill? These are the prominent 19-20th century Indian enclaves that remained in the Southside…anyone with family who remained should have some thoughts on this.
Well I suppose these arent “saponi” towns. But I’m not really sure about “saponi” as a historical name, more broadly – but is one used alot today.
Let me say a few things first. These town names are the ones connected to the Nansemond, Nottoway, Meherrin, and any refugee populations that joined them. There are a few other names like this one that we’ve discussed before that are relevant, but less documented (Greentown, Simmonstown, etc).
For “saponi” people that might be associated with Ft. Christanna or Hollister, these towns are important points, because they refer to a network of marriage and kinship relations across boundaries (mostly socio-political). They have lost prominence since intergration, and most do not appear on very many maps. They are known by members of the communities that live near them, have relatives from there, or from familial stories, etc. If no one has anything to offer about them, that is okay – it is mostly out of oral history and a tight read of historical documents.
Locations: Artistown is on the Carolina / VA border in Southampton Co, almost in Hertford; Skeetertown is in old Suffolk Co. on the way to Bowers Hill (which becomes Portsmouth). Boonetown is in Hertford Co.
I’d like to hear about any “documented towns” that are part of the diaspora – particularly if they are related to the Ohio groups (like the Guineas) or to Weavertown (Indiana) and such. I still have to do work on the Portuguese community in Northampton, and am trying to wrap my head around a few places in the Surry lowlands around Johnycohaunk swamp. I also have been looking alot at the “poorhouse” district of petersburg…
As far as the diaspora comments, 1) the diaspora caused new communities to form away from the original locations (ie Weavertown) 2) diaspora broke up some communities leaving some behind, while others shifted locales (Nottoway reservation), and 3) has created a virtual community of people who are trying to follow thier way back through time to VA / NC border country.
POMBNBNOM: Persons of Mixed Blood Not Being Negro or Mulattto
Virginia Law passed 1833, certification handled by county courts.
I think that the edict sucks. It would be more understanding to include all non Lakota, Dakota, Nakota period. Most Western Indians have a hard time with “breeds”, especially the Northern Plains. However an edict is a suggestion as the article mentioned above stated. There is no “governing” indian police. It will be interersting to see how the deffinition of Indian goes. it will also be interesting to see how various people who rely on donations to live handle non natives who give generously. Things just arent simple.
you are very correct.
the presentation at VCI basically was short and sweet. Over the course of the federal recognition plight, it became clear that some information provided by informants went against Virginia Law during particular periods. there were exceptions to the rules in some cases concerning virginia indians. other material that came to light included corrospondence between plecker and his associates admitting fraud and “mythical” created documents to justify virginia policy. Some history of eugenics was discussed, but the major push of this presentation was to get a feel from Virginia’s indian representatives about studying the Eugenics movement in va. and how it affected indians. Since this is a painful topic, an anynomous survey was distributed (results to follow). The survey sought to establish a) are va. indians interested in pursueing further research into this period in history for the benifit of being able to tell the story (our)themselves b) do they (we) think the eugenics movement affected indians personally c) is the pain of opening old wounds worth the outcoming of further research into the area d) in light of senate hearings, if Virginia indians dont tell this story, somebody else will. more to be revealed after survey results.
Tribes with representatives / delegations included:
High Plains Sappony
Other tribes represented by those in attendance:
of course there may have been others that escape my memory or attention
things are heatin’ up.
a couple of points on this broad thread.
1) DK ‘s ancient material spans way beyond the scope of our query – before modern racial developments. All valueable in the broad view of human relations. lets focus on Saponi VA / Nc related historic / contact forward material.
2) The above discourse is a good example of how we lost the continent, and highlights alot of the confusion and variety of the “blackfoot” ID
3) Tuckahoe proper is Virginia Algonquian, period. Variations within dialects exists (like maybe Tockwogh town, fringe Powhatan dialect). However, since the English first settled and began recording written history in Virginia this land is the origination of Tuckahoe in English, as a loan word. Powhatan has the distinction of having the most loan / loan-blend words in English of any native language, because of the early and prolonged contact. That version is extant from Virginia – any variation is another matter.
4) its easier to document Saponi / Tutelo material than blackfoot, because we know where to start.
Dan and co. –
One thing about the Cherokee claims in 1908 –
It seems many indians applied at that point in virginia and Northcarolina (as well as SC, GA, TN etc) to accept or be included in federal monies. Many indians apllied including lumbees, nottoways(? several applications), Indians of person, halifax, and warren counties – and of course a whole host of other localities. Creeks applied too, so did catawbas etc.
There are several points to be made with all this applying by all these people.
1) the people applying really were cherokee, just not enough to qualify.
2) the people weren’t indian at all, but hoped to gain $$$$ from the chance.
3) the people were indian, didn’t know what kind, except “cherokee” and applied to help their situation out.
4) the people knew they weren’t cherokee, but figured $$$ for indians was $$$ for indians, even if you were lumbee or coharie – hey you might get something
5) cherokee and proud, sign me up im qualified
Not that everyone doesn’t know this, but some might be confused to see ggma chavis applied for this cherokee $$$ from county X in NC, she must have been cherokee! (not Saponi, as we mostly know)
Side note to parties of Greens – Green town of course is Saponi in Brunswick, a stones throw from Mecklenburg or Lunenburg. But Also a major Patowomack name in Stafford county, and may have some creedance in ” the missing 15″ from Hanover, as well as concerns in Powhatan and Amelia counties. not too far away….
Anyone know how many Blackfeet applied for cherokee allotments in 1908?
I know nothing about the “greens” in Amelia county per se.
I only know that their are several Powhatan families in the Amelia, Hanover, and Powhatan county area that are not part of the collective “organized” tribes. Many of these people married within the old social settings, crossing county lines. Several marriages in the 1800’s into the reserved pamunkey and mattaponi tribes came from fringe groups (who are now unorganized and unknown to most) from counties like gloucester/mathews. Interesting enough the last “documented” speaker of fluent Powhatan was from this fringe group area in the 1850’s living with her mattaponi husband. Similiarly, the green name was documented as Patawomack in the early 1900’s and is still carried by the “tribe” today. With the missing representation from the Amelia, Powhatan, and Hanover counties – I was only stating that earlier Greens may have married within their tribal / social frameworks. An imporatant late 1700’s / early 1800’s upper mattaponi marriage took place in Amelia county for instance, while the tribe is in King William. Since the Bass family traveled so far, it might not be that unheard of. A check to the Patowomack would hopefully document how long the name has been within that group – according to their research.
I only know that some (many?) of the applications had dual claims on them;
the ones Ive been engaged in were Catawba / cherokee; Nottoway / Cherokee; Creek / Cherokee. I was curious if there were any of the today’s popular Blackfoot / Cherokee. I paid 25$ bucks a name to have a researcher look them up in the archives. Im sure you could just pour over the petitions if one had the time to scan for such things.
your last statement is closer to the truth. Green is not a Pamunkey name, but rather Patowomack and an isolate in Brunswick that may be Saponi and others from Ft. Christianna mixed populous. Greens knowing pamunkeys is not proven, but pamunkey acknowkedgement of “a group on the upper northerneck” (Patowomack) is noted in the early 2oth century.
The possibilty exists of several families marrying into other indian communities
as has previosuly stated in this thread. Either strenghtening this idea
(or proving the regularity of the surname) is the Nansemond who also count it among many of their collection.
Another set of forts that are related in the line of defense in the American Revolution are : Ruddle’s Station, Martin’s Station, Boonsborough, and Bryant’s Station. All of these are along the Kentucky river. These areas had large amounts of Shawnee present, as well as some Delaware. Cherokees and these two groups worked together when favorable, and some later removed together to OK. (as well as Seneca and Cayuga)
Shawnee presence in eastern KY is very valid, I dont know why anyone would say there were / are no indians there. Near Radford University, VA I worked on a dig several years ago that possessed trade pottery from KY that has been identified as Shawnee in origin – this of course is very much near this area being discussed and dated about 1660 +/- 30yrs.