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Hello.
Didn’t mean to mess up the thread started by Thomas, by improperly replying.
I was wondering if anyone in Haliwa country knew anything about the family of Rena Bell Smith. She was my paternal grandmother. She married David Pepper, of Halifax Co. sometime in the 1900’s. I know quite a bit about the Pepper family, but not the Smiths, who were, as my father told me, Haliwas. As my previous post explained, my father and his siblings spent their childhood in the Methodist Home for Children in Raleigh, NC. Consequently, there was little contact between him and his Indian side of the family, though he often spoke of them with great pride, as a people and a heritage….just not as a family.
After my gandfather died, Rena married an Edmondson, and I hear that they had 7 children. She never visted her children who were still being raised in the orphanage.
I am embarking on this research in memory of my father, and for my oldest daughter. She has spoken with Mr. Holt a couple of times, and is interested in her Indian heritage.
My Dad passed on a lot of wisdom to me, that he described as Indian, I have tried to pass this on to my daughters. In fact, interesting story here….when my daughter first met Mr. Holt at Alamance Community College, it was he that called her over and asked her if she were Indian. He said that he could tell by the way she stood quietly just looking. I had to laugh because that’s the way my father was. And the way I am.
Enjoy talking to you.
Regards,
Lynne
Hi, Lynne,
Here’s some census data….
1920 Halifax Co., NC Census.
District 38, Faucette Township; 2nd & 3rd March;
Sheet 28A; Visit 489:
PEPPER, David H.; Farmer; male, White, 22, m’d; NC, NC, NC.
…………, Rena B.; wife; female, White, 20, m’d; NC, NC, NC.
…………, Lucille; dau; 2 yrs 3 months old, NC.
…………, Duward; son; 2 months old, NC.
…………………………………………………….
1930 Wake Co., NC Census.
District 31, Raleigh Twp (City of); 7 April;
Sheet 3 B; Methodist Orphanage.
PEPPER, Lucille; Pupil; female, W, 12; NC, NC, NC.
…………, Deward; Pupil; male, W, 9; NC, NC, NC.
…………, Josephine; Pupil; female, W, 8; NC, NC, NC.
…………, David; Pupil; male, W, 7; NC, NC, NC.
……………………………………………………..
Do you know if Rena Bell Smith was from Halifax Co?
Bill
p.s.
Found David H.’s family on the 1910 Halifax NC census. Do I understand correctly that you have all the PEPPER info you need?
I can’t thank you enough, Bill!
I have to admit that it was a sort of thrill to see my Dad listed. I have been thinking about him a lot lately, especially since I started talking to the Saponi, you all, online. He would have been thrilled too.
The information that I have on the Peppers is pretty much all anecdotal. I have to admit that I have not really done much geneological research before. The side of the family that my Dad,proudly, refered to as Indian, is beyond my anectdotes….especially since he was quite cut off from it, due to circumstances, and die to feelings about his mother.
If it doesn’t cost you anything, sure, I’d like to know more about either side. I am not sure if Rena Bell Smith was from Halifax or Warren Co in NC.
My Dad was Deward Pepper. His generation has all passed away now. I miss him. He was a great guy. At some point, I might be able to figure out how to post a picture of the two of us.
Thanks again, Bill, for your attention to this cry from the wilderness.
Regards,
Lynne
Lynne,
Email your pix to Linda; don’t bother trying to post them. It won’t work. She is the only one with the permissions needed to post pix.
Techteach
Thank you M’am.
I will get a couple scanned.
By the way, I love seeing pictures on this site. Enjoyed seeing all the ones so far.
Much enjoy talking to you.
Regards,
Lynne
Lynne,
I haven’t found Rena Bell Smith prior to 1920.
I have David Pepper’s line back to 1850.
Was David’s mother Laura V., a WOOD ?
Bill
Greetings Bill!
How kind of you to look into the Pepper line, I do appreciate it.
My father told me that his paternal grandmother was French. Her maiden name was Pair. Her parents were born in France, and I am not sure if she was born there or not. Her name was Annie Pair. My father told me that she spoke French to her parents and they often spoke of streets in Paris, but were said to have come from a region northeast of Paris, closer to Belgium. My Dad picked up enough French at home to be assigned to Belgium and work with the Maquis during WWII. ( Don’t get me wrong…his French was pretty bad).
I know that David’s father was named William Pepper. My father told me that he was about 96 when he died, which would have been circa 1926 ( I think) ? My brother told me that William Pepper was a private in the Confederate Army, and that a cousin of his was a colonel. My father told me that there were rifles from the civil war rusted into a mass in a shed on his grandfather’s farm. The old man never turned in his guns.
I know that Rena Bell Smith’s mother was named Dickens. In fact, my aunt Lucille did some kind of geneological research on the Dickens and they were English from Stafforshire, but they left there in 1644 and came to Virginia.
It was the Smiths who were Haliwa. My father was pretty specific on this. In all of the tales that I have heard over the years, its the Haliwa, the Smiths, that I have had trouble finding out about.
I read the post from the guy who did all this research on his family…and then got turned down by the Haliwa in NC because he wasn’t involved in tribal life….just reading that brings me down, as I am sure it did to him. Naturally I think they did the wrong thing.
Thanks again Bill.
Lynne
Hi again Bill…
I called up my sister in Alabama. She gave me the Pepper line back to a Stephen Pepper, no birth date, but died in 1805. I just wanted to let you know this, since you have very kindly looked into this.
Thank you Bill.
I have been trying to concentrate my search on the Smiths, who were, according to my father, the Haliwa side of the family.
I have encountered more Smiths in NC, on the internet, who are also saying that their Smiths were Haliwa, and are looking for the connection that lead them to the Saponi tribe.
Doing whatever kind of free searchs that I can, there is very little on the Smiths on the net. Funny thing, the searches done on my father by kind persons who actually have a subscription to one of those geneology sites, shows him as adopted, which is wildly incorrect. It also shows his father as dieing in 1922, which is correct, but shows no issue for him, which is incorrect. I suppose the reason for this kind of thing is that free searches rest on the information that other people are sharing about their families.
I ran into someone, who I believe is actually my first cousin, who gave me the Dickens line back to 1644 in Stafforshire England. But the post on the board is so old that the e mail was dead.
Sooner or later, I am just going to have to go to Raleigh and get as many birth certificates as I can afford.
Note to the person who was “refused” entry into the tribe because he wasn’t involved in tribal life….another person on the Halifax NC geneology board said that the tribe was 5 years behind in their examination of relationships, for tribal entry.
Personally, I would like to verify my Dad’s claims to being a Haliwa, out of memory and respect for him, because it meant so much to him and was a foundation of who he was, to himself. It also means a great deal to my oldest daughter, because she was old enough to know him before he died, and heard him talk of it. She thinks of herself as a Haliwa. She would like to be involved in tribal life. I have to admit, frankly, that while I would welcome involvement myself, I have so little time to devote to these things, that I couldn’t manage it. However….I’m not dead yet, and it could still happen.
I appreciate this board. I think it fills a real need. Not only for connection, but for the continuence of Indian life. History, costumes, etc are fun. But we are real, living, modern Indians, dealing with modern life in the US, and I think that the fact that we continue is a testament to the flexability, and wisdom within that kind of flexability, that makes Indian life so valuable.
Thanks again Bill.
Regards,
Lynne
Lynne,
Your PAIR/PARE’ may have spoken French, but they weren’t recent immigrants. While this is also a “free” search 🙂
I can place William Pepper’s wife Laura V. Pair with her parents and they (Henry Pair & Mary Virginia Vincent/Vinson) with theirs, all still in Halifax Co., NC.
In 1910, those households and a SMITH and a DICKEN (S), were all next door neighbors. Several Smith and Dicken(s) lines are related during the 1700s and 1800s.
1910
Halifax Co., NC Census; Dist.47 Faucette Twp; 15 & 16 April; Sheet 1A; visit 18:
PEPPER, William M.; Farmer; 49, m.19 yrs; NC, NC, NC.
…………, Laura V.; wife; 41, m.19 yrs; NC, NC, NC.
…………, Bernard W.; son; 19, NC.
…………, Waverly S.; son; 17, NC.
…………, Annie J.; dau; 14; NC.
…………, DAVID H.; son; 12; NC.*******
…………, Susie V.; dau, 9; NC.
…………, Haywood I.; son; 2; NC.
Next door, visit 19, are Luara V.’s parents:
PAIR, Henry; Farmer; 76; m.45 yrs; NC, Va, NC.
……., Mary V.; wife; 65; m.45; 4 children/3 living; NC, NC, NC.
……., Ezra V.(?); son; 29; NC.
(Soc.Sec.Death Index lists Ezra as born 12 Aug 1880 in NC and d. Nov. 1964.)
—————————————————————–
1900
Halifax Co., NC Census; Dist 30 Faucette Twp; 15 June; Sheet 16A; visit 315:
PAIR, Henry; Farmer; Mar 1834; 66; m.35 yrs; NC, NC, NC.
……., Mary V.; Wife; Mar 1845; 55; m.35; 4/4; NC, NC, NC.
……., Ezra R.; son; Aug 1880; 19; NC.
at visit 338:
PEPPER, William M.; Farmer; Mar 1862; 38; m.11 yrs; NC, NC, NC.
…………, Laura; wife; Sept 1868; 31; m.11; 4/4; NC, NC, NC.
…………, Bernard; son; Aug 1890; 9, NC.
…………, Wavely; son; Jun 1892; 7, NC.
…………, Annie; dau; Sept 1895; 4, NC.
…………, DAVIE; son; Jan 1897; 3, NC.*******
Next door at visit 339, is Laura’s brother:
PAIR, Joseph M.; Dry Goods Merchant; Aug 1873; 26, single, NC.
At visit 354, are 3 elderly EDMONDSON sisters and living with them is Nancy PEPPER, age 29, listed as their “Cousin”, and Nancy’s 5 children listed as “2nd Cousin” to them.
——————————————————————
1880
Halifax Co., NC Census; Dist.137 Faucette Twp; 18 June; p.24; visit 227:
PAIR, Henry; 46, Farmer; NC, Va, NC.
…….., Mary V.; 35; wife; NC, NC, Va.
…….., Jno. H.; 15; son; NC. (listed later as John Henry Pair.)
…….., LAURA V.; 11; dau; NC.*******
…….., Joseph M; 6, son, NC.
Halifax County NC Marriage Record Index:
Marriage Bond of 18 March 1864 witnessed by Jas. H. Whitaker.
Henry Pair married Mary Virginia VINSON on 24 March 1864, performed by J. W. Johnston, Justice of the Peace.
——————————————————————-
Here’s Mary Virginia Vinson’s parents:
1860 Halifax Co., NC Census; Western Dist; 13 June; P.O.: Weldon; p.15; visit 171:
John VINSON; 43; male, farmer, $800 R.E., $538 Pers.Prop.; NC.
Ellenion……..; 35; female, NC.
VIRGINIA……; 14; f, NC.*******
Elizabeth……; 13; f, NC.
Susan………..; 12, f, NC.
James………..; 8, m, NC.
Benjie………..; 5, m, NC.
Barkhead……; 2, m, NC (prob. “Burket”)
Elizabeth…….; 75, f, NC (prob. the mother of John Vinson)
(Vinson was later spelled Vincent in this area.)
——————————————————————–
Henry PAIR’s parents:
1850
Halifax Co., NC Census; 15 August, p.38A, visit 711:
Robert PAIR; 45, m, Farmer, $450, NC.
Rosa………..; 43, f, NC.
Elijah……….; 24, m, NC.
HENRY……..; 16, m, NC.*******
James………; 12, m, NC.
Victoria…….; 11, m, NC.
Levenia…….; 8, f, NC.
I don’t know if “Rosa” is Betsey Bumpus, but she could be:
Halifax Co., NC Marriage Bond, 31 Dec 1821, lists
Robert PAIR married Betsey BUMPUS;
Bondsman: Thomas ALLEN
Witness: S. M. JOHNSTON.
——————————————————-
Still looking for Rena. Someone here goes to Raliegh often, I’ll see if they can help with this one.
Bill
Thank you Bill!
I realized about two days ago that my father’s memory of his childhood was gravely flawed. I did not have access to these records, but on the 1880 census I could see that he must have remembered his AUNT, named Annie, instead of his grandmother, who was Laura. He went into the orphanage when he was around 5. Where he got his family story from…I don’t really know. He often repeated it, so I believe it was something that he, himself, belived to be true.
My husband did some research on the net…he got a free access to some site because he uploaded all of his own geneology and qualified. Its limited in access, but from what we saw, Elliot Shaw, was Laura Vincent’s maternal grandfather. He is listed as a Mulatto. There was also a first cousin marriage between his decendents….I am mentioning this in a post to Vance concerning pure bloods. I find it interesting that a Pepper was living with the Edmondson’s long before Rena married a Edmondson. This concerns me as it may be further proof of interbreeding. Now, I don’t think anyone is going to be born with a tail around here…..but I’d like to mention, that if you have a small pool of people in a local area, trying to intermarry with their own kind, you get too much interbreeding…this can’t go on for very long! So much for pure blood.
Thank you Bill. I will get some kind of picture of us folks uploaded this week end.
Regards,
Lynne
Hello again Bill.
My husband has been reorganizing the material that we do have…and thanks again for your valuable input….and we have found mulattos coming in from both sides of my Dad’s family, and this is even before we have tracked down the Smiths.
We have also found lots of cousin intermarriages going down several generations.
I mention this once again, to highlight the silly idea of racial purity in native american “thought”. I don’t know what my ancestors were driving at….I just don’t know…but lets hypothetically say that they were some kind of Indians marrying some kind of Indians…..I think we know where this could go. You can’t keep it up. Its bad news genetically. This is something that western tribes need to think about. When you have a small population of Indians ( this again is hypothetical, since I do not know what motivated them) who want to remain Indian, you just can’t get to the stage where close relatives keep marrying each other one generation after another. This is another thing I would tell “HIM” from the western tribes.
My great grandfather was a product of a first cousin marriage, one of his sons married his own first cousin, these first cousins were all coming from the Shaw line.
At some point we’re going to track down all these “unknown” females, known only by their first names. I suspect that they were probably mulattos, or at least, more relatives that were a little too close to the bone. I also suspect that they remain unknown for those kinds of reasons. We have pulled off these “unknowns” from free gen sites where there has been some research done by other people, people as far away as Iowa. It was one of these people who tipped us off as to the Shaw connection, which is something many of the rest of them seem not to know anything about. Once we got the connection between Elloit Shaw and the Peppers we just said: “Holy Moley, look at how many times that crosses”.
Yours, with a tail,
Lynne
Lynne,
I am new to the site and fascinated by all the connections. I spent most of yesterday trying again to find my grandmother, Jannie (or Janie) Shaw. Then I tumbled on to your Shaw connections today. Do you have the Shaws posted anywhere? My grandmother was born in Moore Co., NC, and died in 1915 in childbirth in Durham, NC. She married Samuel L. D. (aka Lude) Winston. The Moore Co. courthouse burned shortly after she was born–around 1887 I think. She was still in her twenties when she died. I have searched census records, but many from Moore Co are very difficult to read. I know she had a sister, Lily or Lilly,–that was in the 1910 census in Durham when she lived with my grandparents and listed as sister-in-law. I also think she had another sister, Sallie or Sarah. I think I remember stories about brothers marrying sisters and I think my aunt Sallie Winston was a Shaw. Do any of these names ring a bell? I so want to learn more. I have some information on the Winstons, but no luck on the Shaws. I hope to make it to Raleigh one of these days in hopes of finding a marriage certificate that would list her parents. I think they married around 1902. Look forward to hearing more. Thanks.
Greetings Dreamcatcher,
I will try to get my husband to e mail the geneology he has on the Shaws. I admit that there isn’t a great deal there. I have not been able to spend any time on the geneology research…I work too many hours!
I hope it can help
Good talking to you,
Lynne
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