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http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsp&fileName=008/llsp008.db&recNum=379
Here are records of the Moravians North of the Ohio as printed and recorded by American State papers, Indian Affairs, vol. 2.
It mentions hte United Brethren (Moravians) in 1742 a little North of Bethlehem, Pa.
Isn’t 1742 the same year as the rebellion in Conoy Town and along Indian River in De/Md?
vance
I am to about page 480 so far on vol. 2, and have yet to see any record of “Cayuga” moving west, yet I have seen mention of the Seneca. I am wondering about this because the name of the federally recognized tribe of Seneca that did flee west is “Seneca-Cayuga”. If the Cayuga didn’t flee west, why is the tribe called Seneca-Cayuga today? I am to about year 1824 in reading. Maybe they went straight from NY or Pa to NE Ok without stops in Oh, In, and Mo first as did other tribes from that region. I’ll keep looking for them. I want to know more about the history of the Seneca-Cayuga that fled to NE Oklahoma.
In 1823 I saw the first reference to “Blackfoot/Blackfeet” of the Great Basin and the Rocky Mountains in the records of the Aperican State Papers, Indian Affairs, vol 2 (prob. about p 450 or 460). There is no record of “Blackfoot” with regards to the Virginias, the Carolinas, Maryland or any points west of those places that are of interest to our research, that I have read, and I have read vol. 1 and about half of vol. 2.
In other news, the state of Georgia claimed that when the US government obtained Alabama and Mississippi from them in 1802, the federal govt. promised to extinguish the rights and lands of the Indians left in Georgia (mostly Creek and Cherokee, byut I found a reference to the Chickasaw village on the Ga/SC border. So it was intact at least into the 1820s. I believe Jefferson was president in 1802, wasn’t he?
The Seminole were called 7 tribes but only 6 were mentioned. One of their chiefs was named “Mulatto King”, and another chief of one of these 7 tribes was named “Blount”. I believe “Blount was the name of an earlier Tuscarora Chief. Did any Tuscarora flee to Florida? It was mentioned that some Creek Red Sticks fled to Florida and joined the Seminole. It seems there were mixed-blood Mulatto Indians (bi or triracial groups) from Virginia to Florida along the Atlantic seaboard. Possibly Md and De also.
Vance
Vance,
I doubt that this is an explanation of the name, but, bearing in mind that something I read (I think the piece I cited in Canada), as I have looked at Logan’s family, I have seen varied references to his father being either Cayuga, Conestoga, or Mingo. I have also read that as Indians fled north, they landed in places like Shamokin, so that Shamokin was at any given time, a mix of different tribes and that this mixture became part of the Mingos. I have also read that Cornstalk was given a PA reservation, and it was a haven for mixed tribes, yet the step-grandson of my Blackfoot ancestor, called them all Cornstalk Senecas. That Canadian site indicated that those Seneca in OK may have been the remnant of mixed tribes. To make a long story short, maybe the Cayuga went west with the mixture.
Techteach
For a while I have suspected that the Moravians became United Methodists, but just last night thought to look it up, to see if I could find that connection. Here it is.
I think the Moravians did become part of the United Methodist Church, and that they were the United Brethren that are spoken of in Methodist history — here are some websites that link this together.
The first website mentions a friendship between the founder of the Moravian Church (Count Zinzendorf) and the founders of the Methodist Church (John and Charles Wesley). The second link is from the United Methodist home website. It speaks of the United Brethren uniting with the Methodist Church to become the “United Methodist” Church. The third link is where it says the United Brethren and Moravians were two names for the same Church. Below are short quotes from these 3 websites.
FIRST
http://www.zinzendorf.com/countz.htm
Zinzendorf came to know John and Charles Wesley, who had been converted through their contact with the Moravians. The Wesleys later had a split with Zinzendorf, and founded the Methodist Church; both retained warm affection for the Moravians throughout their lives.
SECOND
http://www.gbgm-umc.org/portjeffersonnyfumc/methodist.html
The Methodist Church united with the United Brethren to make the present United Methodist Church. Today, with the fragmentation of the Baptist church, we are the largest protestant denomination.
THIRD
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02616a.htm
Zinzendorf greatly objected to the name of Moravians being given to his Brethren whom he considered as an ecclesiola in ecclesiâ, a select small church within a greater one, which might exist in almost any denomination. The proposed designation, “Old Lutheran Protestants”, was distasteful to English members. They resolutely clung to the names “United Brethren” and “Moravians” as their official and popular designations . . .
vance
Vance,
I read somewhere that the Brethren became the Methodist Church. I also read that even though they were different denominations, the Quakers, Presbyterians and Methodists accepted everyone as equal and worked together to protect those who were not white.
Techteach
Cindy,
Thanks. I bet you’re right. The Presbyterian Church (called “Church of Scotland” in Europe) did open schools in the Cherokee Nation, as did the Moravians and Methodists. I don’t know much about the Quakers. I don’t think they made it to the Southern tribes, did they?
Then the descendants of the Moravian Church might be attending the church at this link http://www.oimc-umc.org/ today then. My great grandpa was a member of the Methodist Episcopal South Church near Duncan Ok at a time (1890s is when he joined the church, according to his obituary in 1926) when the only Methodist Episcopal south church (the first church of any kind organized near Duncan, Ok in the western half of the Chickasaw Nation was a mission to the Chickasaw Indians, according to “History of Stephens Co., Ok”, a local genealogy refrence book. His maternal grandparents helped organize the first Methodist Church in Arkansas (shortly after they migrated thre in 1815 — the Waylands) and Indian Territory according to an article in “Chronicles of Oklahoma”, that Arkansas Church (from “History of Methodism in Arkansas”) begun in 1815 was a circuit and at least one church on that circuit was in Indian Territory, not Arkansas Territory.
I took some church classes (sometimes the Methodist church has classes for members on their history, et cetera). As I recall one or 2 German-American denominations and 2 or 3 other denominations united to form the United Methodist Church that exists today. I don’t remember the others involved. I haven’t been as involved in the church in the last 2 years, since my divorce. At the time I took the class, I wasn’t aware of them ever being called “Moravians” nor was I aware of the Moravian involvement with missionary work amongst the American Indians. Had I known this before I would have seen those classes through different eyes.
They broke from the Church of England (John Wesley was Reverend of the Church of England, called “Episcopal” in America). He came to America stayed a good while and returned to England. The church was formed just before or during the Revolutionary War, and perhaps as a result of it. The Church he started was called Methodist-Episcopal for a good long while. It split in two over the issue of slavery, becoming known as Methodist-Episcopal North and Methodist-Episcopal South. Eventually those 2 reunited and are one Church again, but in the 1890s it was still called Methodist-Episcopal North and South. So these 2 branches only reunited in the last 100 or so years.
I once asked Rev David Wilson, Superintendent of Oklahoma Indian Mission Conference of the United Methodist Church, where the old records of the church were kept and he said Oklahoma City University library. There might be some interesting things stored in some dark dank room, slowly decaying away . . . or maybe not . . . :confused:
Could be nothing from the “Moravian Era” ever made it to Oklahoma.
vance
Maybe this link was here before..can’t remember.
http://www.gcah.org/Heritage_Landmarks/Wyandott.htm
Sue J
Originally posted by vance hawkins
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsp&fileName=008/llsp008.db&recNum=379
Here are records of the Moravians North of the Ohio as printed and recorded by American State papers, Indian Affairs, vol. 2.
It mentions hte United Brethren (Moravians) in 1742 a little North of Bethlehem, Pa.
Isn’t 1742 the same year as the rebellion in Conoy Town and along Indian River in De/Md?
vance
Yes, 1742 is the year of the Winnasoccum event in Maryland. Regarding the Moravians, they had contact with the Tutelo. Moravian Bishop Cammerhoff meeting with Shikellamy at Shamokin in 1748 agreed that the Moravian visits would be equally distributed to the Iroqouis, Delaware, and Tutelo. Maybe there is more in his journal of this trip and meeting????? Published by John W. Jordan in the PENNSYLVANIA MAGAZINE OF HISTORY AND BIOGRAPHY, XXIX, PP. 160-179, Philadelphia. Speck gives this reference. I don’t have the article.
Originally posted by vance hawkins
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsp&fileName=008/llsp008.db&recNum=379
Here are records of the Moravians North of the Ohio as printed and recorded by American State papers, Indian Affairs, vol. 2.
It mentions hte United Brethren (Moravians) in 1742 a little North of Bethlehem, Pa.
Isn’t 1742 the same year as the rebellion in Conoy Town and along Indian River in De/Md?
vance
Yes, 1742 is the year of the Winnasoccum event in Maryland. Regarding the Moravians, they had contact with the Tutelo. Moravian Bishop Cammerhoff meeting with Shikellamy at Shamokin in 1748 agreed that the Moravian visits would be equally distributed to the Iroqouis, Delaware, and Tutelo. Maybe there is more in his journal of this trip and meeting????? Published by John W. Jordan in the PENNSYLVANIA MAGAZINE OF HISTORY AND BIOGRAPHY, XXIX, PP. 160-179, Philadelphia. Speck gives this reference. I don’t have the article.
Vance in the American stae papers that you have , it mentions the Seminole as being 7 tribes and lists 6, can you post the names of the 6?
I have heard that there is still Calusa songs with words being sung by the Florida Seminole!
Tom, that was over 800 pages and used small fonts and from memory, I don’t know where it was located. I copied maybe 100 or 200 of those pages to my computer, and that information is probably on one of them. Also it was images of those pages, and not text files, so you can’t just do a word search.
It might take a while to find it again, but when I do I’ll put it up.
vance
The Moravian Church still exists, but it isn’t very big.
vance
ps —
Winston-Salem, North Carolina archives —
http://www.moravianarchives.org/
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania archives —
http://www.moravianchurcharchives.org/
History
http://www.moravian.org/history/
vance hawkins wrote: I am to about page 480 so far on vol. 2, and have yet to see any record of “Cayuga” moving west, yet I have seen mention of the Seneca. I am wondering about this because the name of the federally recognized tribe of Seneca that did flee west is “Seneca-Cayuga”. If the Cayuga didn’t flee west, why is the tribe called Seneca-Cayuga today? I am to about year 1824 in reading. Maybe they went straight from NY or Pa to NE Ok without stops in Oh, In, and Mo first as did other tribes from that region. I’ll keep looking for them. I want to know more about the history of the Seneca-Cayuga that fled to NE Oklahoma.
Sgeno, I am an enrolled member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe of Oklahoma. I am told that the Sandusky Seneca’s were in fact Cayuga. Also, YES there were several groups (mostly Cayuga) who traveled straight from New York and even Canada clear up until the early 1900’s. The speakers we have left here today are few, but they do speak a dialect of Cayuga, most of our names that have been passed down from generation to generation are Cayuga. And so our ties to the Cayuga Nation is obvious. I am also told that the Seneca and Cayugas remaind two seperate Tribes until the 1930’s when the elected council system still followed today was put in place. Also I know this to be a fact as our Tribe here still to this day recieves an annuity payment each year from the state of New York due to the Cayuga members for a tract of Cayuga land that was promised to be paid every year forever. This money doesn’t amount to much, but it is still paid. I don’t know a whole lot of exact details about out Tribes history but I do know some, and I will help you out all I can.
I guess I wasn’t watching the forum in 2005 when this discussion began, but anyway, the United Brethren who are now part of the United Methodist Church are NOT the Moravians. Moravians were originally more like extra pious Lutherans, and had nothing to do with the Wesley family (who had started off as Episcopalians — only in England, so it’s the Church of England there, aka The Church). The name United Brethren (also Unitas Fratrum; also in its German form) before about 1800 usually means Moravian. But the United Brethren in Christ is a separate denomination, didn’t exist as such before about 1800, had different leadership and Arminian theology, etc. It was strong in SE Pennsylvania, northern and western Maryland, the Valley of Virginia, and places west of there (not much south of there, though; the church was strongly anti-slavery). This church, the United Brethren in Christ, merged with the Evangelical Association (both were organized by Germans in America) to form the Evangelical United Brethren or EUB church, and that’s what merged with the mainstream Methodist church about 40 years ago to form the present United Methodist denomination. (Which also includes a few dozen other splinter groups.)
Except there were, as usual, some holdouts; so there is still a small United Brethren in Christ denomination that didn’t merge with the Evangelicals, let alone the Methodists. It is based in Huntington, IN, where it has a college and seminary. The web site for this group explains its history pretty well:
http://www.ub.org/about/history.html
But the more important point is that it was the Moravian church that had the early missions to the Indian people who interest us in Saponitown. Not the United Brethren in Christ, nor any other (now Methodist) group. The Moravians were also important in the development of church music in America, especially organ music and brass choir music. They are small, but have good historical resources (archives, museums, etc.), notably in Bethlehem PA and in Winston-Salem NC. Others (especially Lutherans) have sometimes referred to the Moravians as “Herrnhutters,” for the place in Europe (present Czech Republic, I think) from which they spread.
Just to confuse the matter, there is another (and larger) Church of the Brethren, which has also been known as the Old German Baptist Brethren — and as the “Dunkards,” meaning they baptize by immersion. It has almost no historical ties to either of the other sorts of Brethren discussed above. It also has done good historical work, notably The Brethren Encyclopedia.
And that, brethren and cistern, is more than you wanted to know. (Also, “brethren and cistern” is a joke. Don’t ask what it means. It’s an old pun, used among preachers. I didn’t make it up.)
If you are interested in the Indians (massacred at Gnadenhutten, OH etc.), think “Moravians.” Try not to think “Brethren,” or you’ll just get all mixed up. Everybody else does.
Nothing in the above remarks should be interpreted as implying that the United Methodist Church and its predecessor denominations did not have mission work among the American Indian population. It did, especially with the Mohawks and the Chippewa/Ojibway people. But that is both different from, and later than, the subject matter of this thread.
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