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Introduction: This is an attempt to show the movements of the Thomas Holland family from Nansemond County, VA. A start will be made several generations before Thomas, who is #6 below, and will thus include some information on families that married into the Holland line. Most of this data is from sources I trust. Data that my trusted sources or I have not verified will be clearly marked as such.
1. Gabriel Holland, the immigrant, was in Jamestown circa 1621. He had many children by potentially different wives. One son was
2. John Holland, born 1628 in James City, VA. Wife was Mary, surname unknown. His oldest son was
3. Henry Holland, born 1660 in Holland, Nansemond County, VA. Siblings included James, Joseph, John and Michael. Henry married Margaret Carr abt 1672 in Nansemond. One of their sons was
4. Joseph Holland, born 1684 in Nansemond VA. Siblings included Henry, John, William, James. Joseph married Phoebe Winburn abt 1708 in Nansemond. (More on her ancestry below.) They had
5. Joseph “of Spivey” Holland, born 1715. Siblings incl. Jesse, James, Jacob, John D., David. Joseph “of Spivey” married Ester Edmunds abt 1740 in VA.Their youngest son was
6. Thomas Holland, born 1752 in Nansemond, died in Greene County, GA. Older siblings incl. Job, James, Jacob, Solomon, John D. Thomas married Phoebe Rickman, aka Phoebe Winburn Rickman, 1779 in Nansemond, VA. They had a son,
7. William Holland, born 11 Nov 1791 in VA. William married Phetna McBee, aka Phetna Duncan, 6 April 1813 in Greene County, GA. Phetna was born in Greene County, GA 16 Jan 1795, and was allegedly the daughter of Samuel McBee. William died in Coryell County, TX 20 Aug 1869, Phetna’s death having preceded his, 23 Dec 1863 in Washington or Lawrence County, Indiana. Their daughter was
8. Phetna Martella Holland, born 14 Nov 1828 in Lawrence County (or Washington County), IN. She married Josiah Craig Foster 24 Aug 1847. Their daughter,
9. Addie Foster, aka Phetna Ada Foster, aka Addie Phoebe Foster, married Thomas McClellan Todd in Heltonville, IN, 20 Oct 1888. Addie was born 9 Aug 1862. These were my great grandparents.
Additional information on the Phoebe Winburn ancestry (see Joseph Holland, #4 above). Unfortunately, I don’t have adequate dates. Also, there are some conflicts among researchers, so this information is more of a guide than solid fact.
John Sanders, Sr, married either Susanna Ravenett or Phoebe unknown. He may have married both and had children by both. His son was John Sanders, who married Sarah Davis, daughter of Thomas Davis and Rebecca unknown. John Sanders, Jr and Sarah had Phoebe Sanders, who married John Winburn. Their daughter was Phoebe Winburn, who married Joseph Holland, above.
Discussion
I’m always intrigued when an exhaustively researched line, like the Gabriel Holland family, has women entering the line without surnames, or with surnames but no known parentage. I’m especially intrigued when this occurs in a region in which intermarriage with Indians was known to have occurred.
Potential Saponi or other reegional Indian connections are in the Phoebe Winburn line, Ester Edmunds, Phoebe Rickman, and Phetna McBee/Duncan. The Phoebe Winburn line might connect, although there are enough conflicts among researchers that the truth may never be known.
Ester Edmunds, ,married to Joseph “of Spivey” Holland is an unknown. A contemporary Saponi leader was King Edmunds. Perhaps Ester was his sister or cousin?
Phoebe Rickman, who married Thomas Holland, has been problematic for Holland researchers for decades. She is also known as Phoebe Winburn Rickman, which may provide a clue. Perhaps she was born a Winburn, married a Rickman and was widowed? Perhaps there she was the daughter of an Indian slave owned by a Rickman? There’s room for speculation and further research here.
Phetna McBee/Duncan. Holland researchers all say her name was McBee. Foster researchers all say it was Duncan. Perhaps both are correct. There was a family of SE United States Indian traders named Duncan. Some intermarried with the Indians. At least one of these mixed blood Duncan families was in the GA and TN Cherokee areas well before 1800.
Further, I know of only one (there may have been others, but this is the only one of which I’m aware) Samuel McBee in the general Greene Co, GA area in the 1790s. He was a Primitive Baptist preacher, who was rumored to have fathered many mixed blood children before marrying in 1797 at about age 28. He and his bride then moved to, I believe, Grainger Co, TN. Phetna McBee/Duncan and her husband, William Holland, may have had one child in Grainger Co while on a visit. I’ve come to the conclusion that Phetna McBee’s mother was of the mixed blood Duncan trader family, that Samuel McBee was Phetna’s father.
Some questions also need to be asked. First, what prompted Thomas Holland to move from Nansemond, VA to Greene Co, GA? Actually, he also had some property in Washington CO, VA, which he sold prior to moving to GA. Were his mixed blood wife and/or ancestry a problem? Was he involved with the Indian trade and attempting to find more lucrative markets? This type of question keeps me interested in this stuff.
Further, William Holland and Phetna McBee Holland moved to Washington County, Indiana, before 1820. He appears on the 1820 census for that county. There are several Duncan in neighboring Orange County on the same census. Both counties are on the South Fork of the White River. Much mixed blood “Cherokees” settled on the White River circa 1818 to be a buffer between the “whites” and the “hostiles”. I dunno of that was the North Fork, the South Fork, or both. I’m assuming at this time that the Hollands and Duncans were part of that “buffer group”. At any rate, contemporary to the Foster and Todd families were the Helton and Blackwell families in nearby Lawrence County. Nora, wife of Adam Blackwell, looks suspiciously mixed blooded in photos I’ve seen, so I’m pretty sure there were mixed blood families on the South Fork at the time in question.
Conclusions
The Gabriel Holland family has been exhaustively researched. He was an early settler in the Jamestown Colony. He and some descendants were in Virginia’s House of Burgesses. It also appears that some of his descendants married women of Indian, or mixed Indian and Causcasian, descent. At least 2 generations of Hollands, the Thomas and William families, moved to areas in which many mixed blood families lived. My working hypothesis is that this line of Hollands, is also of mixed Indian and Causcasian background. Women of mixed ancestry marrying into the line probably include Phetna McBee/Duncan, Phoebe Winburn Rickman and Ester Edmunds. Phoebe Winburn is also possibly on this list.
Click on ‘search’ in the upper right below the header and search on….
Winburn
Rickman
Holland
as well as your others.
Bill
My Collins family is connected to the Colonial Collins lines that were just next door to the Hollands, Williams, etc. For a while there was no proof as such but recently we have some interesting DNA evidence linking my Collins lines with that of those Williams and Collins in Nansemond.
Williams and Collins? I’ve found no Collins, yet, but I think a Davis connected with the Williams family way back when, another Davis from that family marrying an early Holland.
Bill, thanks for the idea. Before making my first post here, I spent about 2 months reading and making good use of that “Search” feature. Figured it’d make more sense to be a part of this place if some of my surnames connected. Although I’ve yet to find the holy grail, the info gleaned from the searches has helped solidify my working hypotheses on more than one line.
Naturally, I keep using that “Search” thingy and did so again per your suggestion. This time it helped me get my McBees straight: if the Samuel that is allegedly in my line is the Samuel I suspect, then the Mary McBee/Mabee/Maybee who married John Austin, Jr was my Samuel’s aunt.
There’s a book about the Jeffreys or Jeffries family that I believe nobody has cited, and I can’t find my xeroxed pages from it to cite it myself. There was a copy in the NGS (Nat’l Genealogical Society) Library, which used to be a walk-in facility in Arlington VA (and before that, near DuPont Circle in DC). Now it’s just a lending library for members, by mail. Anyhow — more to the point here — I believe a Holland female married somebody in that family, quite early (maybe 1680-ish). Or perhaps she was mentioned in some other context, like an indenture, guardianship or legacy.
Speaking of The Search Thingy, has anybody else been troubled by its feature whereby words of three or fewer letters are assumed to be prepositions (or something useless), and not searched for? There are rivers (Dan, Tar, Po) and families (Guy) eliminated by this feature; maybe other useful data. I wonder if it could be overridden, e.g if the short word in the query is capitalized and does not begin a sentence. Probably not. But I just wonder.
I was rummaging around trying to find a hymn book I have misplaced, and quite naturally found the Jeffries/Holland reference I mentioned (post #5, above).
Louise Jeffreys Andrew, “Marmaduke Norfleet Jeffreys, His Ancestors and Descendants” (Atlantic City, NJ: for the author, 1983), 152 pages if I copied the last one (and I may not have).
I searched the forum for any reference to this well documented study and didn’t find any. (Searched on “Marmaduke;” found several Swearingen and one Coats reference, but none to this book.)
So, with respect to Holland: as far as I noted, it had two connections. One is in the will of John Cotton (Cotten), Bertie Co., NC, 1728. He leaves one “puter” dish to “my daughter Mary holand.” Another dau. of John Cotten was Patience, who married (Capt.) John Speir; she died shortly after the birth of a daughter Patience Speir in 1725, and her widowed husband was also bequeathed a puter dish in John Cotten’s will. The baby Patience Speir grew up to marry Osborne Jeffreys (son of Simon) in about 1743.
The will of John Speir (written 1764, proved 1767) leaves five slaves and (?) pounds in silver and gold to his daughter Patience Jeffreys. In the next entry it leaves land purchased of James Lewis, and ten pounds in silver and gold, to his daughter Apple Holland.
Bill,
Here are what specifics I’ve got on the persons of interest.
Phoebe Winburn married Joseph Holland about 1708 in the Nansemond County, VA area. Joseph was born about 1684 in Nansemond County. John Sanders, Sr, married either Susanna Ravenett or Phoebe unknown. He may have married both and had children by both. His son was John Sanders, who married Sarah Davis, daughter of Thomas Davis and Rebecca unknown. John Sanders, Jr and Sarah had Phoebe Sanders, who married John Winburn. Their daughter was Phoebe Winburn. Are there any known/suspected Saponi, Nansemond, Nottoway, etc connections in Phoebe’s ancestry?
Ester Edmunds, married Joseph “Of Spivy” Holland circa 1740. Joseph was born 1715 in Nansemond County, a son of Joseph Holland and Phoebe Winburn Holland. Is there anything known about Ester’s ancestry?
Phoebe Rickman, aka Phoebe Winburn Rickman, born 1755?, married Thomas Holland (born 1752 in Nansemond Co.). Is there anything known about Phoebe’s ancestry?
Phetna McBee, perhaps Phetna Duncan, was born in Greene County, GA 16 Jan 1795, and was allegedly the daughter of Samuel McBee. She married William Holland (born 11 Nov 1791 in VA) 6 April 1813 in Greene County, GA. Holland researchers all say her name was McBee. Foster researchers all say it was Duncan. Perhaps both are correct. There was a family of SE United States Indian traders named Duncan. Some intermarried with the Indians. At least one of these mixed blood Duncan families was in the GA and TN Cherokee areas well before 1800. Is there anything known about her ancestry?
The ancestry of these women, especially that of Phetna Duncan/McBee, has been a brick wall of mine for years. Bill, any leads or facts will be very much obliged.
Doug
PappyDick,
Figures that you’d find genealogy info while looking for an old hymnal.
That’s interesting info. Looks to be a peripheral line of Hollands to mine, though. Seems to be the story of my investigations: documentation for “cousins” but dead ends on my direct lines. But it adds incentive to keep searching.
Doug
Doug,
I have a Duncan who marries one of my Greens in WVA. In the direct line that ends up in Licking County, OH.
Techteach
Replying to Doug, two messages up:
Looks to be a peripheral line of Hollands to mine, though.
I expect so. Whoever they are, they are related by marriage to some of the close kin of the Jeffreys — who were intimately associated with Saponi ID folks around Ft. Christanna, in Person County NC, and on the upper Tar River. Maybe elsewhere.
PappyDick, investigating the peripheral lines seems to be my lot in life – it’s frustratingly interesting. I sure learn a lot and sometimes come up with a connection.
Techteach, once upon a time I would’ve discounted your Duncan as a potential link to mine. But the way a lot of the folks in your lines and my lines (and the Saponi lines in general) moved around, anything is possible. Looking through the old posts, I think your Duncans wound up with Sarah and Matthew way back when? All I’ve got is that the printed “History of Lawrence County, Indiana” lists Phetna Holland Foster’s mother as Phetna Duncan Holland. And the fact that there were several Duncan families up and down the South Fork of the White River drainage in Lawrence and neighboring counties. Ain’t much to go on, is it?
But I’m becoming convinced that there’s at least one connection somewhere atween your folks and mine. Too many same surnames, many at the same places at the same times. You have the confirmed Shawnee, I have the “peripheral line”.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Thomas Holland who married Phoebe Rickman MIGHT NOT BE the son of Joseph of Spivey??????
I find mentions of a Thomas Holland, wife Phoebe in Halifax, and mentions of Rickman men in the area.
Maybe fresh eye on old data that is not very clear??
Pat Mc
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