Cobb Track of Land 1888

It is not very often that I will come out and say that someone is just dead wrong about something, but I think I’m going to make an exception here.

First, most of it seems to come directly from Rick Haithcock’s books, at least, in terms of the family names and county references, altho the writer does not mention his/her source.

Second, regarding the paragraph beginning “What I have is a BIA listing with the names….” I REALLY wish this were true; it would make writing the Occaneechi Petition for Federal Acknowledgment SOOOO much easier. Unfortunately, this simply is not true, in any realistic sense. The only Federal document listing ANYONE in Greene Co., Ohio as Indian is the US Census, particularly 1870/1880, when some of the Jeffries families from Greensville Co., Virginia, were counted as Indian.

Continuing on, Indians were never threatened with being placed under bondage as an State/Federal official policy in NC or Virginia. It MAY have happened as an isolated incident in a very few scattered areas. You could argue that the laws aimed at Freed slaves conceivibly threatened mixed-race/Indian people, but there is little or no evidence of enslavement actually happening in the period after 1790. If this was really the case, why did thousands of Indian people remain in Virginia and NC, never being enslaved?

I also have to say that for 90%+ of the names listed in this posting, there is NO evidence whatsoever that they families listed are Indian, mixed Indian, or anything other that non-white. There is also little evidence that many of these families moved under duress. MANY families, both white and non-white, were moving west in the 1830’s, and in most cases, the migration was part of a general westward movement. It is true that many of the FPC communities in the Midwest tended to be in close proximity to Quaker settlements. The Beech Settlement in Rush County, Indiana was one such. These families were not “relocated” by the Federal government. Read Vincent’s “Southern Seed, Northern Soil”, for an indepth look at the Beech and Roberts Settlements in central Indiana.

The last section, beginning “These are a few names listed in the BIA records as having their land taken…” again, is poppycock. And as to the BIA having secret records of Indians “sold or taken out of NC” is simply not true. Why would the BIA have those records to begin with, since they would predate the Bureau’s formation by many years, and IF they did, why has some enterprising tribal researcher not obtained them by using a FOA action?

Now if anyone can prove me wrong about this, I’ll apologize. It certainly won’t be the first time (nor, probably, the last) But putting out information like this gets under my skin because it is misleading, historically inaccurate, and mostly just plain wrong.

My 2 cents worth, for all that it’s worth.

Forest,

There are many small community’s in the Ohio Valley that have served as home to a many Saponi families and has been an Indian community recordably over 300 years. You have raised many a eyebrow among our families who did not need to purchase anybody’s book to know who their families were, and still are. It seems that alot of people are searching for only names that they feel could tie them to so called “indian families” there are some of us who have shared our geneology’s with our own people so they could prove who they were.

Could you please clarify why this would be?

tasheaka

I personally like a different approach to this kind of research. Not that I’m dismissing the validity the Forest’s line of work, it’s invaluable. But we need to remember, as he says, that it’s geared towards the Feds, not people and their families and communities of people.

I’ve seen that page, or many similar to it, that list a number of names as Indian, and I suspect there’s something going on there, but it’s impossible to tell what, since it isn’t explained how these ID’s were determined. I know when I’ve tried to look any of it up, all I find is a census showing a lot of people listed as FPC or mullatto or black, so how was this conclusion drawn that they were NDN, much less a specific tribe? That’s never explained. I don’t like to disbelieve nice people, but it’s not really proper to expect others to “just believe it ’cause I say it.” That’s expecting other people to be either 1) gullible, or 2) lazy.

Now, what Tasheaka is saying is very intriguing to me. She’s providing that other piece of data — families that are on that list of non-whites who KNOW they’re NDN,who always known it. (And best of all, Saponi, yay!!) Now we’re talking about something obvious and common sense.

I don’t give a flip if common sense isn’t good enough for the Feds. It’s good enough for us. All that’s really important is that we recognize one another, recognize that we have a common goal, to restore our Ancestor’s culture and memory to its proper place. This IS an Indian country. It always was, no matter how much white-wash was applied, and what hasn’t worn off, has chipped and pealed and flaked away. And if it hasn’t yet, this internet is bringing a lot of cousins together and when we meet each other, WE KNOW IT.

I look at Brenda’s pix and I see that Saponi schnoz and those familiar eyes and I know she’s poured her heart and soul into finding her people. I never needed to see a scrap of “evidence” from her. When she told me the story about how her mother made her promise she’d uncover the family’s story, and left her a box of data that somehow disappeared, only to be mysteriously delivered in the mail a year after her mother had died, and the way she felt about that, that something spiritual was occuring, that was all I ever needed to know exactly who she was and who her family was.

If somebody came to me and said, “hey we always thought we had NDN anestors, and now I just found out I’m tied into Brenda’s line,” that would be Holy Grail to me.

So maybe that will make somebody ill that I’m jumping the gun and spreading mis-information, but, to me, we have to move on. The “proof,” in a European, legalistic manner ain’t gonna exist for the majority of us. But, given the circumstances, isn’t that kind of an inappropriate modus operandi?

This is about what we BELIEVE. What we choose to BELIEVE is fully protected under the Bill of Rights. We don’t need to get recognized with any other status than that. We already have the full, legal perogative to do any of the things we wish to do with this. (BTW, the concept of “individual liberty” is more than likely an NA concept borrowed by the settlers, so we are following our Native roots in asserting this.) Why waste our time quibbling over “proofs” that more than likely aren’t there?

Of course, then again, if some new evidence suddenly presents itself I’ll consider it a marvelous windfall. But only because it helps fill in the picture, not because I didn’t already believe what is supposedly “proven” by it.

[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 02-07-2002).]

i would be careful not to make this disagreement personal. i believe there are two differnt modes of clarity going on here. ive reread hazels posts and feel very supportive of his need for accuracy in the Historical data. however, i also am very well aware of many people that have alot of oral traditions, and are close to indian communities – as linda stated. it really depends on what ones goal is. but for the sake of the research, lets keep it clean and agree to disagree politely. it hard to sense emphasis, tone, inflection, etc in writing.

and…there is a “shoot the breeze” section that i see tasheaka has already found.

Please go back and re-read my posts. I did not “slam” Rick’s book, nor anyone’s oral traditions. Nor did I refer to any of them as “fairy tales” If you want to disagree with what I’m saying at least have the common decency to read the post.

I don’t intend to get in a pissing contest with any of you folks, particularly ones who hide their names behind a user name. It’s a waste of time for me. My apologies if my stance that oral tradition can be enhanced, and frequently supported by historical research offended any of you. I’d hate for any of you to actually have to examine what you believe.

As for being a researcher, I’m proud of what I do and who I am, and I’m just as much an Indian as any one of you posting here. And regardless of what you may think, what I and other Indian researchers like me do has added immeasurably to everyone’s understanding of Indian history. It’s not my fault if the historical documentation is sometimes at odds with what is currently fashionable. Unfortunately several of you seemed to take it as a personal attack on your Indianess when I suggested that if someone makes a statement about documentation as in the message that Brenda passed along, then they should be able to produce said documentation.

Anyway, this is my last post. Linda, Roy,Brenda or any of the rest of you who actually have a question about anything, I’ll be glad to share what I know if you email me.

To the rest of you, happy motoring.

[This message has been edited by Forest Hazel (edited 02-08-2002).]

To my saponi family,

my apology to Linda, Brenda, Forest, Coharie Roy, Saponi NDN, and itconani. I did not mean for my response to be taken so far as to offend anyone. I am fairly new to the sites however, I appreciate All the information that is shared as far as the knowlegeable sources, and some who may still be searching, we all have something to contribute.

tasheaka

Saponi NDN,

Which pow wow? I know there is one on the 16th and 17th in Lima, Ohio. However, I will probably not be able to be there due to other committments.

tasheaka