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January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #3370
Came across some info on this Portuguese Settlement….I left the author’s name off, but if they would like to share more, I would be very interested. When I am in the area, I plan on doing some research.
There is a small remnant community [of Saponi Indians] still in existence across the State line in Northampton County near the town of Gaston on the Roanoke River. Even this community, called the “Portuguese Settlement” throughout much of the 19th and 20th centuries, has largely dispersed. Up into the 1950’s, however, at least one of the community’s schools, called the “Portuguese” school, was still located in Greensville County.
. . . The group began a concerted effort to conduct research into their history, and to seek to correct the racial mis-classifications on their birth certificates and other official documents that resulted from Jim Crow and other racist laws that had at one time been on North Carolina’s books. . .
reply — This Indian mixed/race community was once called “Portuguese” on birth certificates and census records BECAUSE OF THE JIM CROW LAWS. Some were also mixed Black
2. The 1790 census does not list the race of the heads of household in Orange County. Both Whitmores are listed in 1830 as “Free Negro Heads of Households” along with numerous Jeffrieses, Corns, Burnettes, Haithcocks, Joneses, and others for the North District of Orange County. This “Free Negro” list also enumerates nearly all the families that were ancestral to present-day Indian communities in other parts of North Carolina such as the Lumbee, Coharie, and Meherrin. Their uncertain racial status resulted in 13 separate court cases involving members of the Jeffries or related families.
reply — many families were mislabeled as “Negro” who were in fact mixed-race, mixed with Virginia’s Indian population.
3. Four persons gave depositions; three of them appear to have been white while the fourth, Shadrack Jeffries, was an Indian and a relative of William Jeffries. All agreed that: (1) Jeffries mother was of Indian and white ancestry; (2) she was born in Northampton County, North Carolina, near the Virginia line; (3) she did not associate with blacks; (4) his father was Macklin Jeffries, of Greensville County, Virginia; and (5) Macklin Jeffries was a mixed-blood Indian. The testimony of Susan Wooten is particularly interesting in that she states that “Jeffries’ mother associated with White people and those who had Indian blood with regard to her Indian blood.
Other local histories refer to the Indian blood of the Jeffrieses. R. F. Dill’s History of Greene County, Ohio (Dill 1881) contains short biographies of prominent persons, and gives the following information about James Jeffries: “James Jeffries, Furniture Manufacturer . . . was born in Greenville County, Virginia, January 30, 1821 . . . son of Silas and Susan (Pruitt) Jeffries. Silas was a descendant of the Catawba tribe of Indians.” Similar information is given for Mason Jeffries, son of Uriah Jeffries, of Greensville County, Virginia, who is also said to be a descendant of the Catawba tribe.
reply — these folks had to go to court to PROVE they were not Negro. This explains why some said they were Portuguese as well.
second reply to same quote — They are said to be Catawba. Catawba spoke the same language as the Saponi and during times of trouble the Saponi ran to the protection of the Catawba.
4. In 1904, the Eastern Band of Cherokee won a settlement with the U.S. government based on violations of earlier treaties. This meant that thousands of persons of Eastern Cherokee ancestry were eligible for part of the settlement, and many of these people applied to the U.S. Court of Claims for a share (Jordan 1987-1990). It is interesting to read these applications, since a significant percentage of applicants were not Eastern Cherokee, but members of other tribes. These persons would now be identified as Lumbee, Alabama Creek, Meherrin, Haliwa, and Occaneechi (Saponi), along with a number of individuals who probably were of unmixed white or black ancestry.
At least 20 Occaneechi descendants also applied; all were rejected by the commission as not being of Eastern Cherokee ancestry. Among these were Aaron Thomas Guy, born in Caswell County, North Carolina, the son of Henry Guy and grandson of Henry Guy. Henry Guy, Sr., was the brother of Richard Guy, Buckner Guy, and others who moved to Macon County, North Carolina, from the Texas community in the 1820s. Aaron Guy stated that his mother was a free woman of color, born free and raised by the Quakers in Guilford County, North Carolina. There is also testimony from a former slave who knew Henry Guy, Jr., to the effect that he was an Indian, married to a colored woman. Aaron Guy was living in Indiana at the time of his application.
William and Joe Gibson, from Murphy, North Carolina, applied, and the note “Probably Negros” was written on their application. William Gibson stated that his parents “passed as part Indian. No Negro blood in them.” He further stated that his father spoke the Indian language. On the bottom of his testimony is a note, presumably written by the agent, which says, “This applicant shows the Indian so does his brother now with him. However, their ancestors were never enrolled.” These Gibsons, who lived at various times in Tennessee and North Carolina, probably were also related to the Gibsons found in the so-called Melungeon groups of eastern Tennessee and western Virginia, which appear to have originated in the early mixed-blood populations of the North Carolina Piedmont area.
reply — There are 20 PROVEN descendants of the Occoneechi Indians who DID APPLY for the Miller-Dawes rolls of the Cherokee found East of the Mississippi. This explains what I have been saying about those who applied for Miller-Dawes Rolls and were REJECTED — some were rejected NOT because they were not Indian, but because they were NOT Cherokee! If only researchers would BELIEVE what the Cherokee have ALWAYS said, researching their families might get over the hump and they wuld FINALLY understand — but as long as people refure to believe the Cherokee, their own family genealogical research will be retarded and muddled. Many are PROVEN to have been PROVEN to have been descended from those sometimes called “Piedmont Catawba.
5. The Bethany School
The Portuguese Settlement
In the northwest section of Northampton County, North Carolina, just a mile or two from the Virginia state line, lie the fading remnants of what was once called the “Portuguese” Settlement. Centered in Gaston Township, along the Roanoke River , this community of Poythresses, Basses, Turners, Scotts, Newsoms, and Peterses had it’s own school, Bethany, and it’s own church, run as a mission by a white Gaston congregation. At least one store in the community was owned by a member of the group.
While local legend has it that these people descend from Portuguese workers brought in to work on the dam on the Roanoke, the family names cane be traced back well into the late 18th Century in the area. Their ancestry is almost certainly Indian, from either or both the Saponi and the Nottoway. Several of the Scotts who moved from the area to South Carolina obtained papers attesting to their Indian ancestry after they arrived in Sumpter County.
So — There was a so-called “Portuguese Settlement” later found at the VERY LOCATION of the early day (Colonial) of Fort Christ-Anna, on the Va/NC border. Fort Christ-Anna was the location these Piedmont Catawba were ALL sent to live. These Indians later mixed with run away slaves and Whites, and to escape the Jim Crow laws, later called themselves “Portuguese”.
6. This school, formerly a Black school, was apparently used as a school for the “Portuguese” residing in Greensville County until the late 1950’s. The Turners were the most well-known family of the group in Greensville, described by some of the whites as “gypsy-looking”, and remaining separate from both white and Blacks in the area. Douglas Summers Brown’s papers contain brief notes on the Indian background of the Turners.
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #29301More…
It is interesting though — Magoffin County comes to mind –WAS researched by OBSN officials and some of these families DID move to Ohio where the so-called “Carmel Indians” are found. They DID find some families DID go back to their families on the NC/Va border, and I believe some of these families also came from SW Va and NE Tn before going to Magoffin County as well.
Have you read Richard Haithcock’s book, “Tutelo, Saponi, Nahyssan, Monacan, Piedmont Catawba Tribe of the Ohio Valley, Virginia, Carolina, New York, Pennsylvania, and Six Nations/Ontaria Canada”? He to shows a like (as did Dr. Carlson in his PhD dissertation) between Fort Christanna and Magoffin County Indians.
Dr Carlson agrees with Haithcock and both agree with OBSN rsearchers on this.
Thank you for the Marion County, SC reference. I looked it up on a map — it is very close to Robeson County, NC, another place where a remnant of these Piedmont Catawba are known to have survived to the present. They are both less than 100 miles from the Catawba tribe, and known Indian comunities have existed in that region for a long time.
You say these Marion County (and other counties) people called themselves “Portuguese” in 1840s, 1850s and 1870s. So did those on the NC/Va border.
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30037Wowzers Shirl…this is a right interesting bit of info…I can imagine Richard would be very interested in parusing this…assuming he gets online here at all…I wonder what Mr. Cole (teh attorney) woudl say about all of this?…I’ll copy and paste and save it for emailing. I’m currently re-reading the dissertation now and yes, I must agree with the comments about the Carmel group and Magoffin clans…so, what of we Gibson’s and Nichols? Self recognition is wonderful but tribal recognition would be wonderous no? Why are we not members of the Occaneechi / Saponi? Hmmmm….lots to re-assess and think about. Thanks for the big eye opener. Great to be a cousin…bless you and yours~~~~Laurie
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30053I really need to get time in NC and Va to search more records…I believe in all due time…things hidden in the darkness will eventually be found by the light.
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30056Interesting stuff, Shirley. Thanks!
Why are we not members of the Occaneechi / Saponi?
Laurie, are you referring to the NC tribe?
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30058Howdy Bee…I was referring to the fact that none of my Saponi family are recognized anywhere as belonging to any tribe nor are any of us (descendants) recognized as members of any Saponi tribe…NC notwithstanding. On a large scale, my kinfolk were mixed blood Saponi in many states: NC, VA, KY, TN, OH, MI, MO, OK to name the most prevalent..yet they have never been “afforded” if you will, any recognition at a state or govt level. It is just frustrating to finally feel as though you connect yet here you are justttttttttttt outside the door. Rant over. Take great care~~~Laurie
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30062This is true for myself as well…it is not so much carrying a card, saying I am this or that…
It is finding the truth about my roots. I have seen it, truth, in my dreams I have been led down the red road by it and it screams out from the core of my being…yet is cloaked in shadows.
So I wait, listen to what is spoken and unspoken…it will all be revealed…all in time.
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30065Hey Shirley, Laurie, Bee..Osiyo! Shirley, well-said, couldn’t agree more and know pretty much how you feel;)
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Today, 03:10 AM http://www.saponitown.com/forum/image.php?u=1208&dateline=1201140691 sammarroq
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This is true for myself as well…it is not so much carrying a card, saying I am this or that… It is finding the truth about my roots. I have seen it, truth, in my dreams I have been led down the red road by it and it screams out from the core of my being…yet is cloaked in shadows.
So I wait, listen to what is spoken and unspoken…it will all be revealed…all in time.
__________________
P: Adkins, Anderson, Baldwin (Balden, Bolden), Bishop, Brown, Cole?, Daniel, Gibson, Hackney, Landreth, Shortridge, Sparks, Thomas, Vail, Yates, Hart, Johnson, more to come…
M: Palasan, Copatina, Deschamps, Crawford, Douglass, Holleman, Seymour, Davis, Covington, Duke, Mastin, Airey, Blackwell, Wall, Blackistone, Smith…
Here is a link for WVA ndn tribes……………………… http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/westvirginia/index.htm Blessings~^~Greydove
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30077So I wait, listen to what is spoken and unspoken…it will all be revealed…all in time.
I believe in that technique, also.
And, hawa, more has been revealed.
Right now, today, with everything exactly as it is, recognition may not be possible for many simply because of where they happen to live, or where their grandparents happen to have lived. That kinda makes sense to me. It’s the community that is recognized, not the individual. We can be part of a community with or without a card.
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30078osiyo Greydove
tohitsa oginali
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30087Shirley, where did you find all of this? Or should I ask?
It’s a bit odd to hear the Guys, Gibsons, etc. referred to as Occaneechi, since I don’t believe there is any original source document that ascribes an Anglicized surname to a tribal Occaneechi. By the time any such record was made, (and it was a very brief period in time) ALL the Piedmont Siouan were being referred to as “Saponi” by the whites documenting them. The Occoneechee were in Clarksville in the 17th c., then they were at Fort Christanna, then they moved around a bit more, then there’s just zero zippo mention of them until the 20th century when a half dozen people went through a decade long and admittedly valiant struggle to have the name ascribed to their tri-racial community in Orange Co. Once attained the rolls increased and the rest hopefully, will be history, but that’s the real-deal skinny on it. I’m pretty sure those Guys and Gibson were noted historically as Saponis, not as Occoneechees.
I have zero zippo problem with people revitalizing something that was prematurely presumed to be extinct, but it gets a little concerning when the history starts to be rewritten in these self-feeding feedback loops.
Why are we not members of the Occaneechi / Saponi?
I have this straight from the horse’s mouth. About six years ago a BIA attorney told the above-mentioned seminal group of Occaneechi that they had zero zippo prayer in hell of ever being recognized federally unless their tribal rolls contained only people who had lived in the same locale for the past 200 years. End of story.
IMHO, the Guys and Gibsons belong to a very large group of descendants, not just to what has now become a very exclusive group that most of those descendants have no access to. It doesn’t hold water, and it’s just going to stir up hard feelings. But it’s just what seems to be the inevitable fallout when you get in bed with the BIA instead of your own kissing cousins.
And that’s why I don’t believe in government recognition.
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30088Linda wrote: Shirley, where did you find all of this? Or should I ask?
It’s a bit odd to hear the Guys, Gibsons, etc. referred to as Occaneechi, since I don’t believe there is any original source document that ascribes an Anglicized surname to a tribal Occaneechi. By the time any such record was made, (and it was a very brief period in time) ALL the Piedmont Siouan were being referred to as “Saponi” by the whites documenting them. The Occoneechee were in Clarksville in the 17th c., then they were at Fort Christanna, then they moved around a bit more, then there’s just zero zippo mention of them until the 20th century when a half dozen people went through a decade long and admittedly valiant struggle to have the name ascribed to their tri-racial community in Orange Co. Once attained the rolls increased and the rest hopefully, will be history, but that’s the real-deal skinny on it. I’m pretty sure those Guys and Gibson were noted historically as Saponis, not as Occoneechees.
I have zero zippo problem with people revitalizing something that was prematurely presumed to be extinct, but it gets a little concerning when the history starts to be rewritten in these self-feeding feedback loops.
I have this straight from the horse’s mouth. About six years ago a BIA attorney told the above-mentioned seminal group of Occaneechi that they had zero zippo prayer in hell of ever being recognized federally unless their tribal rolls contained only people who had lived in the same locale for the past 200 years. End of story.
IMHO, the Guys and Gibsons belong to a very large group of descendants, not just to what has now become a very exclusive group that most of those descendants have no access to. It doesn’t hold water, and it’s just going to stir up hard feelings. But it’s just what seems to be the inevitable fallout when you get in bed with the BIA instead of your own kissing cousins.
And that’s why I don’t believe in government recognition.
I did not list the author as I thought if they wanted to elaborate, they could… I ran across this piece in my research, thought it was interesting enough to share.
I think you know by now that my interest is not government recognition, as we have seen with history, this marriage has not boded well for our people.
My family says Saponi, that is how I came here…through a cousin. My heart says Saponi, dissertation say Saponi, books and legal documents hint towards Saponi.
I have asked particular’s about my family and I’m told my family was here before the present (Is this saying they are not Saponi??), then I am told they tried for Cherokee enrollment, were denied (however, the agent takes the time to write that the individual looked Indian). This individual said they had a scholar friend they would ask about any info on my family, but I have never heard anything, nor did I expect to.
I hate to use the term bitter, I would just like some straight answers, whatever they are…just a little honesty. Sorry to vent…
Shirley
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30089beeleaf wrote: I believe in that technique, also.
And, hawa, more has been revealed.
Right now, today, with everything exactly as it is, recognition may not be possible for many simply because of where they happen to live, or where their grandparents happen to have lived. That kinda makes sense to me. It’s the community that is recognized, not the individual. We can be part of a community with or without a card.
Blessings Bee,
Love your new avatar, it is a great picture of you:)
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30090Greydove wrote: Hey Shirley, Laurie, Bee..Osiyo! Shirley, well-said, couldn’t agree more and know pretty much how you feel;)
#7
Today, 03:10 AM http://www.saponitown.com/forum/image.php?u=1208&dateline=1201140691 sammarroq
vbmenu_register(“postmenu_29783”, true);
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Minnesota
Posts: 709
This is true for myself as well…it is not so much carrying a card, saying I am this or that… It is finding the truth about my roots. I have seen it, truth, in my dreams I have been led down the red road by it and it screams out from the core of my being…yet is cloaked in shadows.
So I wait, listen to what is spoken and unspoken…it will all be revealed…all in time.
__________________
P: Adkins, Anderson, Baldwin (Balden, Bolden), Bishop, Brown, Cole?, Daniel, Gibson, Hackney, Landreth, Shortridge, Sparks, Thomas, Vail, Yates, Hart, Johnson, more to come…
M: Palasan, Copatina, Deschamps, Crawford, Douglass, Holleman, Seymour, Davis, Covington, Duke, Mastin, Airey, Blackwell, Wall, Blackistone, Smith…
Here is a link for WVA ndn tribes……………………… http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/westvirginia/index.htm Blessings~^~Greydove
Hi Greydove,
Thanks for the link:)
January 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm #30097Hey Shirley & Bee, You’re most welcome. Bee, I am just starting to learn a little Cherokee language, and intend to learn more. Take care, and have a great day!! ~^~Greydove:)
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