Where did the Saponi descend from?

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I ran across something on the internet that said that John Grass aka Charging Bear, one of the Siha Sapa chiefs who died around 1918, said that they have a long oral history stating that the Siha Sapa began in Virginia. Has anyone else run across this? How true is this? I’ll look up the postings from Bess as well.

DStrait;36933 wrote: I think I have read about that before, as well as some other things very similar. The reason I started this thread was I was being told a lot of different theories. I am a member of the Saponi Nation of Ohio and on our website they state we were a subgroup of the Ohio River Valley Sioux. Some people were saying that was not true. Yet when I have done a lot of research on this, the results point to the fact that we were descended from the Sioux. Horatio Hale stated that we were from Siouan stock and Dakotan stock. Siouan is derived from Sioux and Dakotan from Dakota. People just want to discount oral history. Yet oral history was how all Native people passed down their traditions and ways. It is just like the Blackfoot ID that most of us have had handed down orally through our families. We all know who we are and people just want to tell us different.

Yeah, its weird isn’t it? I’ve been quite surprised and dissappointed and hurt that so many people who don’t know anything about me are so quick to tell me “WHO I’M NOT!!” My goals are pretty simple. I just want to give expression to my family’s long history of being Blackfoot without offending anyone or being drawn into any heavy arguments about my family’s identity. I respect federally enrolled tribal members’ needs to keep legal boundaries regarding “who is and who is not” a part of their tribes. I get it. But for a bunch of historical reasons that are quite factual, my family had to send its Blackfoot identity underground. It hurts to feel as if some people want that identity to STAY underground. I just want to learn about the heritage that we never got to learn much about. Not looking to invade anybody’s tribal community, just want to learn and teach my family, honor my ancestors at pow wows (ancestors who went through pure hell in order to survive!), and connect with others with my same or similar history. . . . simple.

Syd;36931 wrote: I ran across something on the internet that said that John Grass aka Charging Bear, one of the Siha Sapa chiefs who died around 1918, said that they have a long oral history stating that the Siha Sapa began in Virginia. Has anyone else run across this? How true is this? I’ll look up the postings from Bess as well.

No ****! Okay, we’ve got Ed McGaa documenting in his book this assertion, and I’m assuming John Grass’ testimony is written down, therefore documented. My understanding is that you need three independent accounts before something can be accepted academically as ‘documented.’

Siha sapa means ‘foot black’ issi asepa means ‘foot black.’ The fact that the second, which is Upper South Siouan, has more sounds in it, while the first is the same words slurred, the way people do when they’ve been saying something for a long time, shows it’s the original version of the language. That’s why Hale said what he did. Sissipaha is an anglicized butchering of issi asepa. Sissipaha is the word Virginians used. Saxapahaw is the word the North Carolinians butchered from issi aspea. The Haw River valley is one of the only places in the Piedmont where the dirt is black river sediment, not red clay. Saxapahaw, NC sits on the Haw River, slam on the VA/NC border.

I’m hoping we can hook up with a real live Siha Sapa interested in this history who we can share with constructively. We are cousins.

Syd;36967 wrote: Hi Linda: I know this doesn’t qualify as “documentation,” but when you get a chance, if you haven’t already, can you google “Sihasapa history” and get to a website called Lakotadakotanakotanation.org. This lady who is writing this book based on alleged oral history of the Siha Sapa and presumably from John Grass is saying that the Siha Sapa were originally called the Saone indians who started out in Virginia. I’ve also seen references to the Saones (connected to the Dakota) recorded at the Library of Congress. A portion of the forward to her book “John Grass: American Indian Patriot” is pasted below. Have you ever heard of this? Is it legit?

FORWARDFORWARD – a premise to historythe sihasapa story

“Who were the North American Indians who today call themselves Dakota, but are known to white history since 1640 a.d. as Sioux? And what is their origin? . . .

The Sihasapa (blackfoot Teton-Dakotas) state in their records drawn from word-of-mouth history, pictorial Winter Counts (calendars), songs, poetry and legends, that the Dakotas were first known to themselves as Saones, signifying “Those Who Wear Honor Well”, or “Honor People”; that they first lived in the Land of the Sunrise on the Shining Big Water – present Virginia on the Atlantic Ocean; . . .

The above quote is re-printed at this website by permission, a direct quote from manuscript “John Grass – American Indian Patriot” (loose leaf) written by Angela Boleyn, held in the Archives of the

South Dakota Historical Society© Registration Number TXu000562111 Date 1993-03-26

I looked up the author of this manuscript, Angela Arvilla Green (Boleyn – married name) and she was born in Minnesota in 1886 and graduated nursing school in 1907. She presented a bill to the North Dakota Legislature (which passed) to register graduate nurses & raise the standards of hospital training schools in ND. She married Mr. Paul Boleyn in 1911 and she was quite an activist for women’s issues, organized many women’s clubs, was a published author, poet and historian. Her date of death is unknown. But she had a son, Paul T. Boleyn, Jr., born 1914 in Minnesota. Maybe he (or his children, since he may have died too by now) has access to her manuscript about John Grass.

Awesome – thanks for sharing this! I’m going to see what I can do to track down a copy of Ms. Boleyn’s manuscript about John Grass and see what she says about the blackfoot sioux starting in VA. I sure wish I could find out what my great great grandmother’s surname was before she took the name of her owners though. I’m afraid to accept the idea that this is a “brick wall” that I can’t move through. I would love to know of any ancestors before 1849 and what their surnames were. I’ve got “Blackfoot,” “Tutelo,” “swastika-in-the-circle quilts,” census records that “suggest” that these particular ancestors were “other than Black” and the region of Rutherfordton NC and Roanoke VA, – – so I’ve got lots of clues. I just don’t have specific last names, only the names of owners! (so frustrating.)