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http://www.geocities.com/ourmelungeons/articles.html
At the above website I have been reading the articles they have.
Some people were saying perhaps a Phoenecian or Carthegenian ship made it across the Atlantic. Maybe a Welch Prince named Modoc crossed the Atlantic or maybe it was an Irish Monk alled St. Brendan.
Well, maybe all these people did cross the Atlantic. But I can not believe that the melungeon people are descended from them. Why? Because of genetics, and intermarriage.
Let us for the sake of argument say ALL these people crossed the Atlantis. I’d wager very few females made the trip. So therefore for them to have survived, and NOT to have died out, they HAD to intermarry with the local Indians. Say 2,000 years ago 100 men were shipwrecked. These men to have their genepool remain would have had to marry Indian women creating a few hundred half-bloods. Some of these would have married other half-bloods, but most would have married Indians creating half-bloods and 1/4th bloods. Say 50 years later there are 400 descendants of the original 100, and say 100 are 1/2 blood and 300 are 1/4th. After a few hundred years the blood will be so diluted it wold be for practical purposes have completely washed out. There is no way any of the escendants of these early day shipwrected sailors could account for the small number of Melungians found in isolated pockets of the Eastern Mountains.
Noone in acadamia seriously believes this, do they? If they do, they need to learn a little more about fractions like, 1/2, 1/4th, 1/16th, 1/256ths, 1/16,192th, and so on . . . 🙂 — and what this means would happen to the gene pool. But the time you are down to 1/16th oyu look for all intents and purpoese like the 15/16ths part and probably wouldn’t notice the 1/16th unless told about it.
Stories of more recent shipwrecked sailors, or Turkish slaves left off the ships of Francis Drake carry more credibility. But still, there are no women slaves on galleys I think. So they’d have to intermarry Indians. Eurpeans were not better fighters thanIndians, they won because of numbers, technological advances, and imunity to disease. In intermarrying they COULD have — if their numbers were enough, survived. But I think like the lost Colony, what was it called Roanoke? they would more probably have been all killed off eventuallu, with a few survivors being lucky enough to have been taken in by the tribe and accepted as family.
The Portuguese had to have known the Spanish colonies were to the South, and most certainly would have tried to make it down there to Florida I would think. The trip would have taken a few months probably, but being Catholic I think the Spanish would welcome more settlers and the Portuguese would have known this, don’t you think?
Turks are another matter, and so they might have hidden out. To think they could have survived as a tribe of half-Turkish/Half Indian peoples is a bit of a streach, tho. To survive I think they would have had to ally themselves with some strong tribe already in the area. There is no record of this alliance, is there? It is possible but unlucky, don’t you think?
But from 1607 (founding of Jamestown) to 1800 or so the tribes East of the mountains were descimated and there must have been many people of mixed race. With European being the predominate race and slavery being common, these people of mixed race “might” have been taken to be slaves and they knew it, so they fled inland. This makes sense. It is the right amount of time to have passed to generate a race looking partly European and partly Indian. And the surnames associated with these people appear to have originated in the British Isles.
Just throwing out ideas and I might be wrong . . . curious.
vance
Vance:
I did some reading on this as I explored my family. I cannot pinpoint many specific web sites, as my ancestors do not seem to be a part of this group (unless you define melungeon as mixed blood), but I do recall information on DNA testing that has turned up a variety of ancestry types. Specifically, the DNA testing indicated that women of Mediterranean ancestry were present in early settlements, as well as men. Try http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/Melungeon/2002-06/1024761148 and http://www.melungeons.com/articles/melungeondnaproject.htm#Panther and also search under the name of Brent Kennedy.
I also read a fictionalized account of the legend of Modoc. Apparently, according to the legend, he is the source of the blue eyes of the Mandan. If the fictional account is based on the legend and/or fact, Modoc’s group included no women but intermarried with native American.
Interesting, isn’t it?
Cindy
Vance,
You are correct in regards to the Melungeon people having American Indian heritage. They say that they are European, American Indian, & African American. I went to the website you posted, & it’s not the same as the regular Melungeon website. By the way glad to have you back! 🙂
Sincerely,
CoheeLady
That’s interesting. It is a very widely debated subject. I guess it’s no surprise there are a variety of approaches and opinions.
thanks for the reference articles Techteach —
one said —
. . .
1. The presence of Turkish and northern Indian haplotypes within the mitochondrial DNA samples taken from modern-day Melungeons indicates that women of European/Asian origin were a part of the original mixture that made up the Melungeon ancestry. Mitochondrial DNA comes from the female side of an individual’s ancestry. Previous researchers had assumed that European males intermarried with Native Americans and African-Americans to produce the Melungeons. Although Native and African genes are definitely a part of the Melungeon genetic mix, women were among the overseas settlers who contributed to the Melungeon gene pool.
. . .
2. “To date we’ve found no sequences that can be definitively traced back to uniquely Portuguese sequences.
. . .
3. It’s very hard to say, back in time, what that would have been classified as, and I think one of the problems here is that we tend to think of ‘Turkish’ in terms of the dimensions of modern Turkey, not of the original scale of people of Turkish origin who, in essence, were spread throughout the European world. Perhaps the best I can say is that some of those sequences are a little more ‘exotic ‘ than Anglo-Irish sequences, and some of those could reflect, perhaps, populations that were associated with or moved through Turkey.”
. . .
4. With regard to the male lineage’s investigated, the Y chromosome data also suggests a multiracial origin, including Sub-Saharan African and European components. Of particular interest are Y haplotypes of established Melungeon male lines that possibly reflect Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern populations. This finding indicates that the overseas ancestors of the Melungeons may have come to these shores as part of a male-female family unit, or formed such family units shortly after arrival. Such family units came to America as part of a Spanish/Portuguese colony at Santa Elena in present-day South Carolina.
response —
I’d like to respond to these 4 points.
1. Author claims Turkish DNA means women of “Turkish” ancestry, relatively speaking, were amongst the first Melungian people. This is not necessarily the case. It is even more likely that an Englishman or Scotsman or Irishman married a gypsy girl or a Turkish girl. A daughter, or several daughters, born of this union later migrated to America and intermarried with a family that later became progenitors of the Melungian family lines.
2. With no Portuguese genes found, I assume there are probably no Spanish genes either as they are undoubtedly very similar.
3. The author clarifies himself by saying — “Perhaps the best I can say is that some of those sequences are a little more ‘exotic ‘ than Anglo-Irish sequences, and some of those could reflect, perhaps, populations that were associated with or moved through Turkey.”
Hmmm . . . The words “perhaps” and “could reflect” are ambiguous. Any time you can say “this might be the case” you can also say “this might not be the case” with equal probability of eventual validation. he even says “The best I can say”. So at best, it might indicate Turkish genes. That’s not the same as saying. “We have proven at least ONE Melungian had at least ONE Turkish ancestor.
4. He says there are Sub-Saharan African European componets in the Y chromosone — that is the male side.
So he CAN PROVE and say there was an African and a European male in this gene pool. That is easy to believe, as there were Africans and European pioneering people in the area. This I can believe.
The author then says —
Of particular interest are Y haplotypes of established Melungeon male lines that possibly reflect Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern populations.
I think when you mix a Northern European with an African gene, you might get the Mediteranian gene pool quite often, as these people are between Africa and Northern Europe. I’d like for the people who made these tests to rule this possibility out before making claims. That is probably why they say “possibly reflict”.
All I am saying is that there are alternate explpanations that are just as plausable AND more importantly, just as probable, as the explanations given.
Maybe he is right, but much more work is needed to prove it. Having said this, I have a great deal of respect for this researcher as he clearly knows what he is doing, much more so than I do.
All I am saying is that while he can say with certainty there are American Indian, European, and Africal ancestry in these people, he saut says it is possible there might be Western Asian ancestry as well. Since Islam conquered North Africa and parts of sub-Saharan Africa, perhaps some African Slaves who were from Moslem areas had Arabic blood running through their veins as well. So there are many possible explanations other than shipwrecked sailors.
vance
About “Modoc”.
Did the Mandan speak the Celtic language of the Welsh people?
Did the Mandan people have a legend that their ancestors came across the Atlantic Ocean, from Wales?
They are the only people that might have known.
Did the Welsh people think the Mandans were their long lost relatives and treat them as such in historic times?
I could start a “legendary tale” about the Chinese, and say they came to China across the Bering Sea from Alaska and settled in what is China today. I could probably find a few Eskimo words that are similar to Chinese words and say “see, here’s proof.” I could find an Eskimo story probably about a fisherman heading East across the Bering Sea towards Siberia who later dissapeared, and was never heard from again.
But this doesn’t make it so. Just food for thought . . . the trouble with such stories is it is that they are literally impossible to prove or disprove, so making them up like this with no evidence at all is tempting. But propogating them borders on the unethical in my opinion. As always I might be wrong, tho . . . 🙂
I’ll bet there are tales from all over the European coastlines of people like Modoc, about ships setting out to sea and never returning. I’ll grant it is possible some did make their way to the American shoreline. I have no problem with this. I just think it is just about impossible to get any more specific than this, tho.
vance
ps — I am just speakingand don’t mean any harm, and I very well might be wrong about a lot of this. Really I just need to be convinced . . .
Vance:
Don’t take anything I threw out as anything but food for thought. Just information to chew on. The story of Modoc that I read was, of course, fictionalized, but the author made the comment that it came from legends. And I really do not know anything beyond that. I didn’t even pull the book to read for anything but pleasure reading.
Cindy
Hi Cindy —
well don’t worry — I am just curious and wanted to see what I could dig up or what somebody else could dig up — I need some mind stimulation, from time to time . . . — most days I don’t enough . . . 🙂
Those articles did bring up some pretty goot points. Thanks for bringing them to my attention, I do appreciate it very much.
vance
Vance:
You’re welcome. Oh, and I went looking on the web for Modoc stuff after I read that book. There is some information about the legend on the web if you want to explore. I didn’t save any sites, as I had never heard the name before I read the book and was just looking to see if there was really a Modoc legend.
Cindy
Vance;
There is a great deal about “Madoc” at http://wovoca.com/hidden-history-madoc.htm
Please don’t take this too seriously. It’s only info. for fun.
Palden Jenkins has written an essay titled “The Columbus Myth.” It’s at http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/GlastonburyArchive/healhurt/hhn-20c.html
It covers suggested examples of other pre-Columbus “discoveries” made here in America by several cultures from around the world.
It also has info. on Madoc.
I have found, as you look into the Melungeon movement, that there were core families that had no problem knowing who they were and where they came from. There seems to be a movement however for others to latch on to the Melungeon identity and create a larger group than the original one.
Dan Akin.
Dan you are so right about that.
I have no family tradition at all of the term “Melungeon”. Recently I was looking into my “Wayland” surname, and discovered them in the same church where they say is the first historic documentation of the word “Melungeon” being used, I think, someone please correct me if I am wrong. It was the Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church, and my ancestors there were Nevil Wayland and other Wayland names pop up in the minutes of that church that are on line. This is near Clinch River and Fort Blackmoor, & I don’t know if it is in TN or Va.
That’s why I was looking into these things. So I read that the “Melungeons” were originally in Hancock and Hawkins Counties in Tennessee and a couple of counties in extreme SW Virginia. This is the only place I think the name was historically used. And just because someone’s ancestors were in these counties still doesn’t mean they were Melungeon, because they were a minority group there even, I think, at least from what I’ve been reading the last few weeks.
Because my ancestors were members of that church I can not say they were “Melungeon”, but it increases the probability that they might have been. And before I read these articles I thought the term was more widespread from what I read online.
So many people are trying to find their roots and grab onto anything and it is easy to do — we all want to “belong” somewhere.
“Modoc” is somebody else I don’t know anything about — so I guess I can read up on him, now . . . 🙂
Thanks yall
vance
Vance & Dan
This is just my opinion.
Supposely,when Jamestown was founded two explorers were sent to exployer the territory to the south. ( the Carolina’s to Florida) These three men kept a journel that is suppose to be house at the archives in Reilgh. In that journel they told of a people living in log cabins among the Indians. These people were dressed in black, spoke a broken Elizebethian English, and at certain time of day a bell would ring and they would all stop what they were doing and bow in prayer. (info taken from Brent Kennedy’s book; He is related through my Bennett line)
First: I would love to see this document for myself.
Second: If this group of people were the first Melungeons they were the first to colonize America, not the people of Jamestown. England didn’t want that word to get out because they wanted claim to the new world for themselves.
This brings about a new question: Who were these people?
Well, I have heard several answers , they could have been the suvivors of the Lost Colony; suvivors of a ship wrecked off the Carolina coast; suvivors of a slave ship…………
See Taukchiray’s chronology of Saponi migrations in Eno-Occaneechee petition for NC state recognition. Between 1670 and 1676 the Occaneechi had been joined by the Tutelo and Saponi, who settled upon two neighboring islands. In the latter year the Conestoga sought refuge among them and were hospitably received, but, attempting to dispossess their benefactors, they were driven away. Later, harassed by the Iroquois and English, the Occaneechi fled south and in 1701 Lawson (1860) found them on the Eno River, about the present Hillsboro, Orange County, N. C. Later still they united with the Tutelo and Saponi and followed their fortunes, having, according to Byrd, taken the name of the Saponi. Population.- Mooney (1928) estimates that there were 1,200 Occaneechi in the year 1600.
In April of 1673, James Needham, an Englishman and Gabriel Arthur, possibly an indentured servant came with approximately eight Indians, as explorers to the Tennessee Valley. There, Needham described finding “hairy people …. (who) have a bell which is six foot over which they ring morning and evening and at that time a great number of people congregrate togather and talkes” in a language not English nor any Indian dialect that the accompanying Indians knew. And yet these people seemingly looked European. Needham described them as “hairy, white people which have long beards and whiskers and weares clothing.” This bell seems to me to speak of a Latin influence among these people. Other, later explorers, found people who lived in log cabins with peculiar arched windows. Dr. Kennedy says that by the late 1700’s they were practicing the Christian religion.
It appears to me that this small community of “Melungeons” were already intermarrying with the indians and within a few generations were more Indian than white. I would love to know who the eight Indians were that went with Arthur to explor the Tennessee Valley. Perhaps an ancester of old Vardy Collins . Remember Vardy borrowed the Collins name from the white settlers in Virginia. He also seemed to end up owning some of the most choice land in the state.
Brenda
Brenda in richard haitcocks book volume 1 there is some info on arthur and needham one of the aboriginal people he started out with was an Occcaneechi named INDIAN JOHN or Hascoll.
it seems that Arthur spent a lot of time with the Cherokee people ,he was also captured by the Shawnee ,while with the Shawnee in the scioto river valley ,a Band of Occaneechi attacked them there. it seems that needham met his fate when he pissed off Indian John it seems that Indian John shot him in the head and then removed his heart.
this information deals with the year 1673 into 1674.
there are 3 citations for this information
Douglas L. Rights,The American Indian in North Carolina.
Robert L. kincaid, The Wilderness Road.
Grace Steele Woodward, The Cherokees
George
To All,
Does anyone know whether Gabriel Arthur was European or American Indian? I find it rather odd that he survived & lived amongst the Indians, while his counterpart met with an untimely death. I do believe that it happened, I just need more information on Gabriel Arthur. I am a descendant of the Arthur family, whether we connect to Gabriel is not known as of yet. My ancestor was named William Arthur. Thanks.
CoheeLady
I have Rights book here at home and just looked this story up. The original source “is recorded in Abraham Wood’s letter published by Alvord and Bidgood in ‘First Explorations of the Trans-Allegheny Regions.'”
It sounds like Needham was a bit too high handed for Hasecoll’s taste.
As the party crossed Sarrah River (Uwharrie?), an Indian let his pack fall into the water, for which he was rebuked by Needham. Indian John took Needham to task and continued quarreling all day until the party reached Yattken Town at Yattken River (first mention of the Yadkin). The crossing was made before nightfall and camp was pitched for the night, in all probability within sight of the famous Trading Ford. Indian John continued to rail at Needham until the latter seized his sword, threw a hatchet upon the ground, and challenged the Indian whether or not he meant violence. Indian John snatched up a rifle and fired a bullet into Needham’s brain. The Tamahitan escort attempted a rescue, but too late, and began to lament the murder. Before the startled Indians the culprit brandished his knife, ripped open the body of the victim, tore out his heart, and held it aloft as he turned to the east and vented his rage at the English.
Earlier Right described how powerful the Occaneechi were at this point in time. I guess this story sums up the ego clash and tussling over turf inherent in that situation.
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