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Merry Christmas to everyone; I am looking for info. on old Fort Frederick that was in southwest Va. in the 1750’s. I have seen this somewhere and I know that the Starns family was there. Also I understand that Christopher Gist had a trading fort also in the same area around the same time. Does anyone know about these two forts.
Dan.
Dan,
The only thing I found was for a 1750s Fort Frederick located in now extreme western Maryland which would have been part of Virginia in the 1750s, and on the frontier of the time, just not in S.W. Virginia. Just a guess and bearing in mind that Dr. Walker’s explorations of S.W. Virginia ocurred in 1749, I don’t know if there would have been any forts west of Roanoke in the 1750s.
While Summers’ “Annals of Southwest Virginia” only picks up in 1769, his list of Forts, maybe self explanatory due the dates, does not include a Ft. Frederick.
A link to that Maryland Ft. Frederick is (… my links don’t always work:o too well ! )
http://www.fortedwards.org/cwffa/ft-fred.htm
and there is a Fort Frederick State Park there.
Bill
Bill; I think I found them. In 1749 Moravian missionaries noted that in the region of Dunkard’s Bottom (New River Valley) they found a “..kind of white people who wore deer skins, lived by hunting, associated with the indians, and acted like savages.”
My grandma was Lee Omeida Starnes. (It sounds like my family.)
The web-site is http://www.rootsweb.com/~vapcgc/doc/DunkardsBottom.html
It is real interesting to me that my Baker family was also a part of this German community as was the Harmon family which was associated with my other grandma’s Neal family. My grandma’s were second cousins.
Dan Akin.
Dan,
Seems to me that in this piece, the Lorton, Harmon, Hart & Mack people are being differentiated from “and german eccentrics in Dunkard’s Bottoms” – “AND” being the operative word which makes me think that.
I found this article of interest and I am going to dig deeper into this Harman surname. Thanks for posting this link.
Brenda
Bill; If you are saying that all of the people in the German community on the New River in the 1700’s weren’t neccesarily Dunkards, well that could be true. It does appear that they all came from Pa. though and had traveled down through Va.
Frederick Starnes, as claimed by his family, settled first in the Mohawk Valley of New York state, then to Tulpehocken, Susquehanna Valley in Pa. before settling on the New River in the 1740’s.
I have another line that appears to have come from Chester Co. Pa. and had gone to Bedford Co. Va., the Neals. They married into this Harmon family and into the Stivers family of Wayne Co. Ky. The Stivers being another German family.
Some of the Harmons, Stivers, and Neals descendants claim Cherokee descent and applied to the Guion-Miller Commission in the early 1900’s.
The Harmon’s through Charles Harmon “Mag the Greyhorse” grandson of Jacob Harmon Sr.
There is an oral tradition that the Cherokees named Adam Harmon of the New River German community “Skyagusta, Great Warrior.”
On the New River you had Jacob Harmon Sr., Andrew Baker/Bader, and Frederick Stearn/Starnes. These are the guys I’m interested in. Does anyone know about these families or Native American ties to them or the German community on the New River?
Dan Akin.
Dan,
It only seemed that the writer was differentiating those families from the Dunkards. In the body of this piece, is a quote from some of the Dunkards in Penn maligning the ones who moved to Va who had to associate with people who wore skins of animals and killed wild animals to eat, a practice the original Dunkards did not accept, but that the Dunkard’s Bottom ones were driven to.
My question is whether the writer might be pointing to the four surnames he differentiated from the Dunkards as being the ones who wore the skins of animals? Re-reading it, it still seems that may have been the writer’s intent. Don’t know. It’s just a thought.
That the Harmon/Harman people came from Penn is not being questioned, only that they may not have been Dunkards/Baptists.
Bill
Dan,
From Summer’s “Annals of Southwest Virginia”, there’s a Frederick STERN, appointed Constable in Botetourt Co Court of Febry., 1770, “for that Precinct upon Holston’s River where he lives.”
And the Will of Frederick STARNS, written Aug 22, 1778, probated May 18, 1779 in Washington Co., Va., His Estate to his wife Mary; and to his children Jacob and David. Witnesses: Francis Bird, Jesse Bounds, Conrod Henninger.”
Other Starnes/Sterns in “Annals….”
Annie, Katherine, Peter, Susanna, Joseph & Leonard.
Dan & Bill,
I recieved the following reply to my email of yesterday to a Harman researcher. This one listed Collins among her Harman’s and also migerated to Missouri. The one that caught my eye was the one she says was Nancy Williams who has also been called Nancy Collins. I have both names in my father’s line. Can either of you pick up any clues?
Hello Brenda,
It was great to see a family history message on my list this morning. The favorite time for me to do family history is in the winter.
Our only listing for Collins is in the possible name of my ancestor Henry Harmon’s wife, and the for sure listing of my Civil War ancestor, George Harmon who married Delila Collins and was living and married in Missouri in the 1850’s. We have Nancy Williams and Nancy Collins as the possible name of Henry Harmon’s (who was born in 1792) wife. I have him in Fairfax County, Virginia and later moving to Missouri. I know that his father lived and died in Fairfax County as well – died in 1812. I have been unable to find where he came from. I will use the Russell County and Floyd County hint from your email to investigate. I have not been able to trace my line to the Mathias Harmons you are referring to, but I sure would like to as there seems to be lots of information on them. All of the Collins that I have listed on my census searches of the counties that had Collins where my Harmons lived, have no Meridith, George, David or Lewis. The only references to slave ownership has been one or two who seem to have been assistants. Henry Harmon was a blacksmith and his father Peter kept an ordinary.
I am not sure what FPC means?? I have seen one reference to a Harmon being mullato, but not associated with my line as far as I can tell. I have also understood that slaves often took the last name of their owner when freed. I will send your message to a “cousin” of mine and see if she has done any searchs or hits on the Collins family. In the meantime, keep me posted in your search. I would love to expand my Collins line.
Thanks for writing. Good luck with your searches. I have been dead ended for so long – maybe this will be the year!! Susan Harmon Klein
Bill and Brenda, thank you!
Bill that was “pretty darn good.” If you follow the trail of the Starnes family back to the Mohawk Valley of New York you will find one their neighbors was the Gorlack/Carlock/Gerlach family. This is the family of Hans Gerlach b. 1632 in Heidelburg Germany. One of his sons was David Gerlach b. 1674 Germany, d. 1763 in Augusta Co. Va. His dau. Caroline married Adam Frederick Starnes, b.1756 Augusta Co. Va.
Another son of Hans Gerlach was Johann Christian Gerloch b. 1699 Germany, d. 1764 New York state. His first wife was Anna Maria Margaretha and his second wife was an INDIAN MAIDEN. This comes from a book by Marion Pomeroy Carlock, “History of the Carlock Family”, 1989 reprint edition, Los Angelos Ca., 1929, p. 418.
If this is true it could point to an early mixing by these families even before they reached the New River.
Who the heck did they mix with?
Dan.
Dan,
Have you discovered in which part of NY State Hans Christian Gerloch lived ? You might be able to take an educated guess if you know that.
I pulled a muscle yesterday and am on muscle releaxants today. They must be leaving me a little fuzzy headed. I started reading this thread and thought you all were debating whether or not a group of German immigrants were all drunkards! 🙂
Hey, my german immigrant predescessors enjoyed their ration of beer, but they certainly were not drunkards! Great Aunt Lucy lived to be 93. I saw her a little jovial at times, but never drunk. In the nursing home, her doctor advised her she’d live longer if she gave up her nightly can of beer. She told him she didn’t want to live longer if she couldn’t have her daily Old Style.
Hey Linda, maybe they were drunkard Dunkards:) I don’t know.
Bill, the families say; Starnes – The area of the Hudson River, Schoharie Valley of New York. Frederick Starnes was an ensign in the Albany Co. Militia.
The Gorlach’s – Mohawk Valley, Herkimer Co. N.Y.
Dan.
Bill and all; It looks like I found the Bakers/Beckers and Goldmans, Frederick Adam Starnes married Mary Baker Goldman. They were in a group that left Schoharie Valley, part of the Mohawk Valley, Montgomery and surrounding counties in New York. They were led down the Susquehanna River by Capt. Conrad Weiser in 1729 to Tulpohocken and Swatara creeks in Pa., Berks Co. Pa.
Linda, isn’t this where your Ulms are from?
They mixed first with the Mohawks and Osgwatchies in New York and possibly the Mahicans in Pa.
They were called the Mohawk Dutch and it is written their language became a sad mixture of German, Dutch, English and Indian.
The Fronteirsmen of New York- http://www.fortklock.com/simmsearlyschoharie.htm
Dan.
Yes, some of my family, Ulms and Borshaers, were in Berks. Weiser came over the same year as my Borshaer’s — 1713. I know the group my Borshaer’s were with had much better treatment from the neighboring Indians than they did from the British who’d conned them into coming over, then abandoned them when the venture didn’t work out due to inadequate initial research on the Brit’s part. (Our Hugeonots were supposed to be making turpentine, from trees, it turned out, which do not produce turpentine. ) When the venture failed the Hugoenots were left to starve and would have if not for their Indian neighbors.
Weiser and Shikellamy were close friends and negotiated league interests for a long time. There’s a story they were paddling down one of the rivers or creeks in the Susquehannah watershed. As they passed by a beautiful island, Shikellamy told Weiser that he had dreamt about Weiser’s gun. This meant, by custom, that Weiser was supposed to give Shikellamy the gun. Weiser responded by claiming that he had dreamt that Shikellamy gave him the island.
Shikellamy grumbled about the trade, but had to go through with it, according to custom. “But” he roused, “that’s the last time I’ll ever dream with you.”
BTW, I’ve heard from another family of Borshaer’s who have the Blackfoot ID in their family.
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