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Greetings:
I have strong rumors of Indian heritage in my family, and have been investigating several lines for a number of years under the guise of both native and Melungeon. Most of these are from VA (early) to NC, SC, GA, and AL. I suspect Cherokee and Choctaw AT LEAST in these families. Only recently, however, did I make some discoveries about another of my lines that leads me to suspect a Saponi connection.
This is my Crump/Parr line, which married into my Green line. The Crumps and Parrs were from Patrick and Pittsylvania counties in VA. Earliest known Parr ancestor is John Parr, born about 1735 in Patrick Co, VA and died about 1808 in Patrick Co. He married Miriam, whose maiden name is technically listed as unknown, although there is founded speculation it was either Fletcher or Collier (possibly Colley). Earliest Crump ancestor is Robert Crump, birthdate ca. 1720s, who married Jane Lazonby/Lisenby. Their son Robert Green Crump was born 1745 in Pittsylvania Co, VA and died 1825 in Franklin Co, GA. He married Mary Parr, daughter of John Parr and Miriam. The Crump line goes down a couple generations until they married into my Green line from Surry Co, VA and Person Co, NC areas.
The Parrs and Crumps were intermarried with the Saponi families of Hathcock, Corn, Payne, and Gibson from the Pittsylvania, VA area. Other allied families include Dial, Smith, Jones, Capps, Cagle, Fletcher, Collier/Colley, Sitton, Cornelious, Tyner, Andrews, Reeves, Shelton, Powell, Bowling/Bolling, Cox, Fields, and Little.
I have seen comparatively large amounts of information on the Saponi connections of the Hathcock and Corn families (and others from the above list), but I never see Parr or Crump listed. I have seen others researching this same line of Parrs ask about native heritage, but the Parrs and the Crumps are never mentioned in any discussions of Saponi lines. I’m wondering if any native blood in the Parr and Crump families comes only through their intermarriage with the documented Saponi families, or if they themselves had Indian ancestry. Seems like when you get started researching these family groups, you don’t just turn up one Indian or mixed family – it’s one right after the other like dominoes. The fact that Parrs and Crumps were marrying Indians makes me suspect that they also were Indian, or at least mixed.
Any thoughts or connections welcome. It’s great to be here!
-Courtney E. Shinaberry 🙂
My people have names that are not common ones on this forum until you stretch the genealogy out. This being said, my Iowa ancestors clumped together in one spot and many are buried in the same cemetery including my Cherokee/Blackfoot grandparents. The headstones in that cemetery are all turning out to be connected to these families. The cemetery includes Parrs. In fact, Parrs lived near my ancestors in Huntington County, Pennsylvania where my ancestors were to be found at the time of the Revolution. And, as I look at my Green genealogy, a Parr married one of the connections to my Greens, a Butt. No Crumps in my family. I went to high school with Crumps and Parrs though.
Techteach
Welcome to the forum, Courtney!
I would add that “Collier” (among others) was often an early variant spelling of “Collins” in many areas of the S.E. and/or just sloppy writting on the part of the census taker !
If you use the “Search” button above the message, you’d find more postings on “Collins” than you’ll be able to read for a week !
Where there’s one, there’s always more of ’em! 🙂
Many of your names seem to abound here.
Not that we may be able to add anything to what you already know or have figured out, but many of your surnames do set off some bells.
I’d be interested in where, when and how your Gibson, Andrews, Shelton, Bowling/Bolling, Cox, Powell & Fields lines connect, as people with these surnames are ancestoral or associated with several people on this forum.
I haven’t ran across PARR (in this context) or CRUMP before, but since they’re related to those other lines you mentioned, they could be secondarily related (daughters marrying out) to primary lines as you’ve indicated. Techteach’s county in Iowa is an excellent example of this. That many of the families in her Iowa county appeared to be related and that there were PARR and CRUMPs there (you held out on me, Techteach! 🙂 ) might hold some significance even if your known, direct ancestors, didn’t go to Iowa because some of the younger sons’ or daughters’ families may have. Simpler than it sounds.
I’m “a bit” buried in gen-projects at the moment but I’ll take a look at yours as soon as I can and see if I can add anything – not that that may be possible. Would appreciate any additional info you would care to provide on any of your lines.
Again, welcome to the family,
Bill
Bill says
I would add that “Collier” (among others) was often an early variant spelling of “Collins” in many areas of the S.E. and/or just sloppy writting on the part of the census taker !
>>>>
My main line is COLLINS and what Bill says is true. I find my Collins in Montgomery Co. in the late 1770’s and then lose them but find COLLIERS with the same first names as my Collins in the same area and altho I can’t prove they are one in the same I often wonder. It would clear so many things up for me if I could just fill in the missing years between 1780-1797.
As to your other surnames, I also have JONES comming out of the same area and connectiong in the mountains of West Virginia.
Courtney and Bill:
Try these two URLs. They contain the Parr name found in locations near my people in Iowa (http://www.rootsweb.com/~iamuscat/cemetery/parr.htm) . Muscatine County is just south of Jackson County, IA where my folks are. This other URL has Parr marriages in the same county as Linda’s Blackfoot folks: http://www.jansdigs.com/WIMarriages/wismarr-pa.html . These counties are near one another too.
Techteach
Courtney,
On the 1767 Pittsylvania Co., Va Tithables list (p.318) (the first since that county was created from Halifax Co in that year), centered on the ford across the first branch of the Mayo River (Va. Mag. Hist, vol 13.) are (notable names):
William Hays, 2.
Arch’l Hughes, 1.
David Gowing, 3. (Going?) 272 Acres.
Rob. CRUMP, Jun, 0.
Rob. CRUMP, Sen, 0.
Zacheriah Cook, 1.
Paletiah SHELTON, 1, 144 Acres.
Geo. GIBSON, 1.
John PARR, 2, 400 Acres.
……….
For Henry Co. – “Va Taxpayers 1782 – 1787”, p.95:
John Parr, 1, 2. (Tithables)
Henry Parr, 1, 0. (Tithables)
……….
There’s a Maryland marriage for a Robert Crump & Jane Lazonby on 28 May, 1731, St. Luke’s Parish Church Records, Queen Anne’s Co., Md. Are they yours, or just a coincidence?
……….
The 1704 Quit Rent Rolls of Virginia show 6 Crump households in Virginia, all in New Kent Co:
Elizabeth; James; Richard; Robert; Stephen; William.
……….
Goodness!! You all jumped right in and have been most helpful – thank you very much.
Thanks for the links, Techteach – something else for me to explore.
Bill – to answer or respond to several points you made:
There’s a Maryland marriage for a Robert Crump & Jane Lazonby on 28 May, 1731, St. Luke’s Parish Church Records, Queen Anne’s Co., Md. Are they yours, or just a coincidence?
Yes, these are my ancestors. Robert who married Jane and his son Robert are probably the Robert Sen. and Jun. listed in the 1767 Pittsylvania tithables list.
The 1704 Quit Rent Rolls of Virginia show 6 Crump households in Virginia, all in New Kent Co:
These are probably my kin, although nobody has been able to demonstrate the connection yet.
I’d be interested in where, when and how your Gibson, Andrews, Shelton, Bowling/Bolling, Cox, Powell & Fields lines connect, as people with these surnames are ancestoral or associated with several people on this forum.
1. Elizabeth Lee Gibson, born 1817 in St. Clair, Co, AL, married Barton Guess Crump. She was the daughter of Jeremiah Gibson (1792-1857) and Elizabeth Naoma Green of Stokes Co, NC. Jeremiah Gibson was the son of William Gibson (d. abt. 1850) and Unice Brown of Pittsylvania Co, VA and Stokes Co, NC.
2. Enoch Andrews, md. Malissa Miriam Crump, I have no dates or locales for Enoch, althought Malissa Miriam Crump was born 1783 in Pittsylvania Co, VA and died in Franklin Co, GA. Believe Enoch to be the son of James Andrews and Prisilah McGraw.
3. Sheltons married into Rigg family, which was a collateral of the Crumps. Stephen Rigg (1775-?) married Martha Shelton and his sister Drucilla Price Rigg (1776-?) md. Joseph Shelton. Rigg children were born in Charles Co, MD and relocated while young to Henry/Pittsylvania area and then to Stokes, NC. Believe ther marriages to Sheltons occured in Stokes, but Sheltons were from either Henry or Pittsylvania.
4. Bowling and Cox are twined together for me. Line descends through John Cox (1737-?) in Lunenberg or Halifax, VA and his wife Frances Bowlin, through their son Bolling Cox (1781-1842) and his wife Rebekah Cabiness (1785-?) and then their son John Bolling Cox (1810-1877) who married Susan Crump. This last marriage was in St. Clair Co, AL, although the families had been allied since VA and traveled together through NC, SC, and GA.
5. Catherine Powell md. Zachariah Rigg (of the Rigg line mentioned above). Zachariah Rigg was born abt. 1787 in either Pittsylvania Co, VA or Stokes Co, NC. I have Catherine Powell as the daughter of Joseph Powell and Nancy, of (possibly) Stokes Co, NC and later of Greenup Co, KY.
6. Permelia Fields (1811-?) md. Samuel Guy Crump. Families from Stokes Co, NC to Franklin Co, GA – and by migration path of everyone else concerned, I suspect a Piedmont VA area origin for the Fields’ as well.
Hope this helps someone,
Best,
Courtney
Regarding this statement:
The 1704 Quit Rent Rolls of Virginia show 6 Crump households in Virginia, all in New Kent Co:
If the connection is ever established between these Crumps and mine, the New Kent Crumps were allied with Powell as well.
-Courtney
Courtney,
Thanks for the additional information. I’m buried but will add it to the list needing to be checked.
…………
Putting all historical romaticism aside, the original “Melungeons” were native.
…………
Hate to sound mysterious (just don’t have my notes in front of me!), but there may be more ‘meat’ there than you’ve indicated. As a general discussion…. We just recently looked at a COX and a FIELDS line in this region (s.w.Va., n.e. Tenn, n. NC.) of the country, and a BOWLIN line a little west of Pitts. PAGE, of course is a well known ‘mixed-name’ in colonial Virginia. Look for them in the Cabell, Randolph, Bolling & Rolfe lines. Finding any “Harrison” as a surname or ‘first’ name cements the connection by 1820 in this area.
…………
Yes, I noticed that the New Kent Crumps had to be allied with a Powell line and that the Ga. & Ala. people I saw a hundred years later, had to be some kind of descendants of the Pitts./Henry Co. people. Powell is a collateral line for a lot of the surnames I’ve looked at on the forum but I can’t quite ‘put my finger on ’em’ – they’re just “always there”.
I think the Crumps of New Kent bear a lot of looking at in your case because they were the only ones recorded in Virginia in 1704 (….caviate: that I’ve found). At the risk of sounding too authoratative here, the Isle of Wight William has to be either a new immigrant OR a descendant of the New Kent people but he’s 20 years later, anyway.
The names are so similar and the time-line progression & migration route fits so well, that I’m close to being convinced that the Queen Anne and the New Kent Crump people are the same family. I’m not usually so ‘certain’, but it would be worth your while to check that out thoroughally. (Basis: Genealogy Library Database at genealogy.com – a hundred gems there.)
Minor Point: The western/n.w. parts of New Kent Co., in 1704, encompassed an area of Virginia that even 20 years later was still Indian country and an origin area of many of the surnames on the forum. My gut ‘feeling’ is that the Crumps got into Indians later that Robert and Jane (Lazonby) Crump. The Greens, Sheltons, Gibsons would be the lines I would pursue, given the same set of circumstances.
…………
Descendants of the earliest Md PARR line either went to Penn or came FROM Penn. – can’t quite make that out with any certainty …. worth mentioning, tho.
Some one here should cross-check and correct me if necessary, but isn’t a Va to Md, then back to Va and on into NC before the scattering, one of the early migration paths for some Blackfoot I.D.’s people in the 1700s?
Courtney says The Crump line goes down a couple generations until they married into my Green line from Surry Co, VA and Person Co, NC areas.
Welcome, Courtney.
Mousini and I live in Person co NC. We have plenty of Bowlings and Greens around us. What lines come out of Person?
Other common points, while all my mother’s people mulled around Person co since the 1700s, my father’s people came into the Va ports and spread into the interior of Va…… none of my direct ancestors went west but most of their siblings did in most generations.
I am also interested in your Cox lines, on my father’s side we have Mary, Lucy and Sarah, all daughters of Ambrose Cox b. 1772 and Sarah Reed b. 1775 …. the daughters married into 3 of my lines and all lived in Floyd co Va…. don’t know about Ambrose. Ambrose was son of Mathew Cox b. 1745 and Susan Lucy Dickerson b. c1740
My STRANGE line was in New Kent Va from 1680 until 1760.
peace
Ken
Courtney, Chuck, Ken, Cindy, et.al., this just keeps getting more interesting – and interrelated, with each incoming post. I’d like you to keep the information exchange on this thread going because it looks like there are some solid connections here.
Bill
Bill and Courtney and others interested:
Check out this web site: http://www.a-c-o-m.com/genealogy6.htm Courtney, I do not know if these are your Parrs, but these Sinkeys and Greens are certainly mine, and I have a book written by my great aunt saying that they were Indian. William Sinkey and Mary McCartney are my direct ggg-something grandparents. William fought with the PA 8th Rangers in the Rev. I have wanted to prove that he was at least mixed. This web site might be as close as I will get if you look at where the Cooley’s travel to, right up to the NY land that was awarded to the fleeing Tutelos. I am right, am I not?
Anyway, many of these Parrs, Cooleys, Sinkeys, etc. end up in Jackson County, IA. I have pictures of many of the headstones in the cemetery with Grandpa and Grandma William and Mary Sinkey, including Asa Cooley. I did not particularly notice the Parrs at the time, because I had not noticed that a Parr marries into my Green line. Bill found Parrs in the same area in both OH and Jackson County, IA. And I had Parrs in high school with me.
I did not find Crumps in my line.
Cindy (Techteach)
Bill Childs said:
Putting all historical romaticism aside, the original “Melungeons” were native.
I totally agree with you on this, and would add that, especially in the 17th century Tidewater area, there was a certain amount of mixing with free blacks, and for families with roots in DelMarVa (as most claimed Melungeons have), then I think that very much comes into the admixture as well. I favor the tri-racial explanation of Melungeons as a general rule, which is not to say that in certain families there weren’t other influences as well, whether Roma, Portuguese, etc. I just don’t think those more “exotic” lineages are a crucial component of general mixed bloodlines, as some would claim. I guess that’s just too mundane an explanation for most people.
For those of you who haven’t yet taken a look at the work of Paul Heinegg on Free African Americans in early colonial America, it is very instructive. Many, many of the names we as well as Melungeon researchers discuss are very much represented – including Powell, which sticks in my mind relevant to the current discussion.
http://www.freeafricanamericans.com
Bill also said:
I can’t quite ‘put my finger on ’em’ – they’re just “always there”
I can’t agree with you more – I feel this way all the time in my research, as the same families appear over and over again, really rousing my suspicions about what’s going on.
I think the Crumps of New Kent bear a lot of looking at in your case because they were the only ones recorded in Virginia in 1704 (….caviate: that I’ve found)
Yes, I feel this as well. The given names used in these families (esp. Robert) are a real tip-off that there is a likely connection. The paper trail just hasn’t been established yet. There also seems to possibly be a separate lineage – maybe connected before immigration… Cousin marriage is really common in this family, and some of the Crumps who married into the Crump line aren’t obviously connected (at least from what I have seen) to the New Kent clan.
Some one here should cross-check and correct me if necessary, but isn’t a Va to Md, then back to Va and on into NC before the scattering, one of the early migration paths for some Blackfoot I.D.’s people in the 1700s?
I’m very interested in this statement – I think we can learn a lot from migratory paths. Quite a few of my lineages seem to move around a lot and have this same sort of back-and-forth kind of movement happening. A lot of Melungeon researchers also talk about this peripatetic tendency in their families as well. Of course some of this apparent movement can be explained by periods of county formation and the reshuffling of state lines. A family could have inhabited the exact same piece of property while it shifted back and forth between several “official” locales. I’ve seen this happen in at least a couple incidences in my family.
Finally, Bill said:
Courtney, Chuck, Ken, Cindy, et.al., this just keeps getting more interesting – and interrelated, with each incoming post. I’d like you to keep the information exchange on this thread going because it looks like there are some solid connections here.
Yes, Bill – I certainly will. You have brought up a lot of interesting points to pursue, and I will do so and be reporting back if I find anything interesting.
Cheers,
Courtney
Dreaminghawk wrote:
What lines come out of Person?
The one I am looking into is a Lewis Green (1741-1794), born in either Surry Co, VA or Person Co, NC, also associated with some land records in Orange Co, NC and Caswell Co, NC (perhaps so many locales because of county formations at this time – believe Orange was divided into Caswell in 1777 and Person from Caswell in 1791 (correct me if I’m wrong!). At any rate, I have never found a wife’s name for Lewis Green. I descend through a son named Burwell Green who married Phoebe Caddell in the Orange/Caswell/Person area of NC. Their children went first to Pendleton district of SC and then to St. Clair Co, AL.
The parents of Lewis Green are not proven, although given names in his descendants suggest a lineal connection to an early Prince George Co, VA line of Greens allied with surnames Griggs, Jones, and Robinson. Possible mixed race family here… William L. Green, grandson of Lewis married Malinda “Milly” Crump, so that is the point of fusion of these lines for me.
Best,
Courtney
Techteach wrote:
Courtney, I do not know if these are your Parrs
Hi, and thanks for the link. They could be connected in a distant way to my Parrs, but I don’t see anything obvious at this point. But please do share anything you think might be relevant. Enlightenment definitely comes from the left field, sometimes.
Best,
Courtney
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