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Billahuk to everyone who has made their information public to allow me to make this connection!
I’ve finished analyzing our DNA and genealogy results versus John Wesley Mounce. The five samples from my family I’m calling ‘Indiana Jones/Smith’. From locations, names and times I can see for certain where the connection is.
There have been four males to carry the name, the one that is clearly related to us is
John Wesley Mounce II 1865-1942, married to Essie Francis Welcher 1896-1979, in Conway AR 1915There are strong links on his maternal line, and his paternal.
His mother,
Sarah Elizabeth Hickman, 1828 Clark Co VA – 1905 Piatt Co ILhas ancestors in the same place as our,
Zillah Bayley, 1836 IN – 1919 Indianapolis INSarah and Zilla’s ancestors names don’t match up, but both lines are in Culpepper VA, Harrison/Pendeleton VA/WV and Ross OH at the same times. Sarah’s line has Hickman, Butcher, Flesher, and Bush ancestors. On my grandfathers line it was Bailey, Miller, Pontius, Zeller and Swartz.
From genealogy I know our Indiana Jones/Smith clan share the marriage of Anna Catherine Zeller (Sellaire) and Johann Andrew Pontius with Linda and Shelby Rico. I descend from their son Andrew Pontius. His siblings are in Ross OH same time as the Hickmans. Sarah’s Butcher, Flesher and Bush lines are in Harrison/Pendleton VA/WV the same time as Zillah’s Pintius, Miller, and Swartz lines.
On John Wesley Mounce II’s fathers side,
John Wesley Mounce I, 1818 Salt Creek, Hocking OH – 1904 Piatt OH,His Cave line is in Culpeper VA the same time as my grandfather’s Nay and McColley lines. His Mounce line is likely in Picakaway OH the same time as some of the sibling of our Andrew Pontius. The Mounce/Mpunts line starts with a female ancestor Mary Smith.
My grandfather’s grandmother,
Lizzie Nay 1873 Johnson IN – 1938… to be continued…
John Wesley Mounce II’s mother Sarah Hickman was not John Wesley Mounce I’s only wife. He also married, 1842 in Hocking OH, and had two children with:
Mary Dunn 1822-1847 OHEffie Francis Welcher (wedding pic in first post) brings in more lines. Her father Samuel H Welcher is’s maternal grandmother is Mary Collins 1789 Lee VA – 1865 Canon TN. During removal time(1820-1840) the other ancestors “show up” as mostly a brick wall in TN. Like some of my lines but different counties.
Her mother,
Virginia Frances Dicus 1862-1934ancestors are a brick wall past her parents Andrew Clifton b 1833 TN -1897 AR, and Rebecca Francis Tomblinson 1840 AL – 1903 Conway AR. Andrew also had a second spouse Mary May 1832 TN – ?
Seeing births in TN during removal times, and the loss of names and ancestry is telling. This is similar to the ancestors on our grandmothers side – the Smith/Jones side, but they were in different counties.
Everything seems to be pointing to a connection primarily on our Pontius line. It seems to be tied to Bunch so maybe Pontius/Bunch are really one name?
The only name match here is a Smith with unknown parents from the same time period. There is no way other than DNA I would ever have made the connection.
Comparing GGM_Robbins to John Wesley Mounce again there are no common surnames. There are common locations/times, again Harrison/Pendeleton/Hampshire VA/WV. The times are pre-county settlement and early settlers.
Both lines are mixed with Pennsylvania Dutch lines.
Since this is also the most likely connection between our samples and John Wesley Mounce, it seems nearly certain the connection is on this line. GGM_Robbins and I have Catherine Miller in our tree from this time but the names don’t match up. Johan Conrad Miller shows up in both of our trees. We also have another time/location match between us in Westmoreland PA.
Samuel Van Houten and Catherine Moore are in GGM_Robbins tree as parents of John Carleton Van Houten. McCombs Van Houten, below, has the same parentage:
McCombs and Elizabeth (Williams) Van Houten
GGM_Robbins ancestors on this line, Ida Belle White 1865-1927 (center) is 1st once removed to McCombs Van Houten.There is another line that has no genealogy or DNA connection, but shares the name Ida Belle White and a Saponi migration pattern.
Ida Belle White b.1895 Oklahoma Indian Territory. She also brick walls at a Smith, in Hawkins TN, along with Adams and White ancestors;My mother and I have noticed with my Smiths that there are several ancestors with uncommon matching names in the same time and different locations – seemingly unrelated. Or is it covert way to show family connections without using last name?
The Germans of the 1700s were not assimilating to Virginia’s English laws. Living on the other side of the Alleghenies was a way to put distance from the seat of power in Richmond. The birth dates of some of these ancestors pre-date the formation of the county they are listed in. At this time the Virginia government classified the areas as ‘unorganized’. Western PA, future WV, and other Appalachian areas seem to be at the root of several families with Blackfoot an German oral history. Was the ‘Black Dutch’ family story started here as these lines crossed. A way to claim full European ancestry when you didn’t look the part?
You have to wonder at some of these female ancestors genealogies who are claimed to be born in Germany. Surely many are, but sometimes it doesn’t add up.
Conclusions I’m drawing here are;
This matches our Drybread samples but does not match our Smith cousin, so it is not the Indiana Jones/Smith line. It is on my grandfathers side (Pontius/Bunch), GGM_Robbins has multiple connections to us and John Wesley Mounce. But as a group we only share ancestors in the future area of WV/VA in the 1700s. There are common Miller/Mueller/Aumiller ancestors between GGM_Robbins and our genealogy.
Other connections from people at SaponiTown; are Brenda Collins Dillon also shared common Miller ancestors from this line, Rachel Payne whose GEDMATCH was shared here. Dave Parrish also shares this segment, along with a number of matches names Cousin, Montgomery, Brown, Hall, Stevenson, Androy, Willy, Brown, Allen, Hicks, Speck, Henningfield, and Newdigate.
Thanks for all your efforts, Marc! This is still over my head, but it’s fascinating indeed. I would love to find a connection between the two Ida Belle Whites. There is surely more to unearth in Pennsylvania along the Allegheny River with the White family. I know there was an area known as “White Settlement” in Porter, Clarion County, PA. My 2nd GGF, Joseph Irvin/Irwin White was born there in 1840. He married Roxanne Van Houten. Westmoreland County, Clarion County and Venango County are all along the Allegheny. Venango and Allegheny Counties are where my Trax family lived.
Interestingly, the Whites and VanHoutens are on my father’s side of the family, but my mother’s maternal side of the family (Wilhelm) has a strong presence in Chillicothe, Ross County, Ohio. Also, my mother’s paternal great grandparents, Hezekiah and Sarah (Pickering) Green, were born in in the early 1800’s in Fairfield/Pickaway County, Ohio. Pickaway county was created in 1810 from Fairfield, Franklin and Ross counties.
I will keep on studying and let you know if I find anything.
Here is an example of what I see in Genome Mate. This is my mother’s chromosome 8. The John Wesley Mounce and Dave Parrish matching segments are highlighted. The small red box are other people who match some or all of John Wesley Mounce’s segment. That segment is part of a bigger segment shared with Dave Parrish. The thicker red box is all the people who have matching segments within Dave Parrish’s segment. Rachel Payne who is in this group did not come up automatically in this group. Her kit number was mentioned here on SaponiTown so I ran a comparison and dropped the limit to >5cM, >500 SNPs, then >3cM, >300 SNPs. At 5cM it’s more of a clue. This match only showed up under >3cM. Not a large enough segment to be definitive, but a possible clue and reason to investigate further. All the rest of the samples are above the 7cM threshold that indicated IBD “Identical By Descent” = shared ancestor in a genealogical time frame
I use the >3cM >300 SNPs against archaic samples to check for matches as well.
I’m not certain exactly what these matches mean, open to anyone’s input.This is my mother’s chromosome 13. From SaponiTown we know we have similar stories. Looking at the matching segment on 13 for Joshua White to my mother there are also shared segments. There are two segments 4.8cM and 3.4cM that match GGM_Robbins, and a 5.6cM match to TechTeach’s mother. All of these matches are on a 50.6cM segment my mother shares with Sylvia Smith – a cousin our Indiana Jones/Smith line.
One of the matches to GGM_Robbins also overlaps with a match to an ancient 7000yo sample deiscoverd in Stuttgart Germany.
The author of GenomeMate is writing a new version due this fall. I will see if I can help when I get home today, although I do not understand as much as you do.
Techteach
MarcSnelling;38420 wrote:
I’m not certain exactly what these matches mean, open to anyone’s input.This is my mother’s chromosome 13. From SaponiTown we know we have similar stories. Looking at the matching segment on 13 for Joshua White to my mother there are also shared segments. There are two segments 4.8cM and 3.4cM that match GGM_Robbins, and a 5.6cM match to TechTeach’s mother. All of these matches are on a 50.6cM segment my mother shares with Sylvia Smith – a cousin our Indiana Jones/Smith line.
One of the matches to GGM_Robbins also overlaps with a match to an ancient 7000
yo sample deiscoverd in Stuttgart Germany.
Marc, am I understanding correctly that your maternal grandmother and I match on two separate segments of this chromosome? My ancestral locations in Germany are mostly Karlsruhe or Darmstadt. FamilyTreeDNA claims my origins are 95% European (some Finnish) and 5% Middle Eastern (Turkish). The Turkish blew me away. I’m curious…how were those ancient samples of DNA obtained?
Maybe Saponitown should have a page of instructional videos on analyzing DNA. Marc, I nominate you to record one for autosomal DNA. The GenomeMate app looks like a pretty powerful tool. I installed it, but really need to study it more. I am new to all this, but already I’m seeing that you need to find a way to manage the mountains of data.
Marc,
I really pay no attention to those black markers, because they do not differentiate which parent you match. They give a visual image of the length of the segment. Where I see the strength is in the segments, where you can identify the segments by ancestor if you have enough people tested and/or sharing with you or on Gedmatch. Their connection to you and the genealogy you do will help you ID the segments from different lines. In the first shot, you see at the top that I identified a segment of Dad’s DNA. One person on that page who matches through my German father allowed me to ID that segment.
The second shot shows a segment of Mom’s DNA identified. That particular segment would be either my Ralston line and/or the Blackfoot line of mine. She married into my Ralston line.
The third shot is the segment tool. As you can see, I don’t have a lot of segments identified. The problem is, you have to make sure that you know the genealogy of your matches. I was able to identify some Sinkey from a match who has only my Sinkeys as well as a Ralston-only match (but in this case, there was a share back to my Blackfoot, so I am not sure where that is coming from. I have not had matches that have helped me break that Blackfoot deadend.). I cannot afford all the DNA testing that some people do to accomplish things like finding biological parents. And I don’t fully understand this program when it asks you to identify maternal and paternal lines, so I hope I guessed right how to do it.
There is a Facebook page you can post to for help.
Cindy
GGM_Robbins;38423 wrote: Marc, am I understanding correctly that your maternal grandmother and I match on two separate segments of this chromosome? My ancestral locations in Germany are mostly Karlsruhe or Darmstadt. FamilyTreeDNA claims my origins are 95% European (some Finnish) and 5% Middle Eastern (Turkish). The Turkish blew me away. I’m curious…how were those ancient samples of DNA obtained?
Maybe Saponitown should have a page of instructional videos on analyzing DNA. Marc, I nominate you to record one for autosomal DNA. The GenomeMate app looks like a pretty powerful tool. I installed it, but really need to study it more. I am new to all this, but already I’m seeing that you need to find a way to manage the mountains of data.
That’s correct, the MGM stand for Maternal GrandMother. I know this is my mother’s maternal grandmother’s line because it matches our 1st cousin on that line.
The ancient samples are on GedMatch – there is an ‘Archaic DNA matches’ feature on the home page that compares a sample to all of them. You can compare them individually by kit number, for example F999916 is the 7000yo Stuttgart sample.
In my experience admixture calculators deal more in generalities than specifics. They are showing trends – where a certain haplogroup is most prevalent. I get different results from different calculators with the same DNA. All of them have different algorithms they use. They identify populations in different time periods. I would try some of the admixture calculators on GedMatch like Eurogenes and MDLP for comparison. They let you analyze by chromosome and do chromosome painting.
The admixture calculators and haplogroups are constantly evolving. Earlier DNA studies said A,B,C,D are the only Native American haplogroups. Then they had to add Q and X. Others like R1 based groups have their origins in Eurasia 30000 years ago. Many call that ‘European’ because it is seen in many Europeans today. Yet there are Native American populations like the Dene who have a prevalence of it and no history of contact with Europeans. DNA data also seems to show that Northern European and Northern American populations came into contact hundreds of years before Columbus. The Norse 1000 years ago for starters. They have found DNA classified as Native American in Icelandic populations.
There are many discussions ongoing on this topic in DNA message boards. There is one on 23andMe for people who believe their DNA categorized as Finnish is Native American for instance. The sample size and amount of work that has gone into sub-categorizing European DNA is significantly more than African DNA and that is much more significant than Native American DNA. European tests tell you if are English/French/German/Iberian/Italian/Scandinavian/Irish/Russian/Eastern etc. African DNA tests map to a similar number of sub-groups. Native American categories are usually just North vs South America. Very little detail in comparison.
Personally I find the admixture calculators more valuable as a means of comparison between individuals than as hard numbers.
One person who has done a bunch of DNA analysis work is Roberta Estes. She was one of the people who did the Melungeon DNA project. This project included lines mentioned here. Her blog DNA Explained has some good info. The conclusions of the Melungeon DNA study are controversial in some Saponi circles. I would say look at the data and draw your own conclusions.
techteach;38424 wrote: Marc,
I really pay no attention to those black markers, because they do not differentiate which parent you match. They give a visual image of the length of the segment. Where I see the strength is in the segments, where you can identify the segments by ancestor if you have enough people tested and/or sharing with you or on Gedmatch. Their connection to you and the genealogy you do will help you ID the segments from different lines. In the first shot, you see at the top that I identified a segment of Dad’s DNA. One person on that page who matches through my German father allowed me to ID that segment.
The second shot shows a segment of Mom’s DNA identified. That particular segment would be either my Ralston line and/or the Blackfoot line of mine. She married into my Ralston line.
The third shot is the segment tool. As you can see, I don’t have a lot of segments identified. The problem is, you have to make sure that you know the genealogy of your matches. I was able to identify some Sinkey from a match who has only my Sinkeys as well as a Ralston-only match (but in this case, there was a share back to my Blackfoot, so I am not sure where that is coming from. I have not had matches that have helped me break that Blackfoot deadend.). I cannot afford all the DNA testing that some people do to accomplish things like finding biological parents. And I don’t fully understand this program when it asks you to identify maternal and paternal lines, so I hope I guessed right how to do it.
There is a Facebook page you can post to for help.
Cindy
Thanks Cindy. The program has some quirks, I don’t fully understand the config either. For the dna map in the third shot I just go by chromosome numbers and centimorgans. Both my mothers lines are German – Blackfoot. So the maternal/paternal doesn’t help naildown Blackfoot matches. For the Blackfoot links the difference is Pontius/Bunch vs Indiana Jones/Smith. The line Pontius/Bunch marries into Drybread is heavily German. The lines Jones/Smith marry into are heavily Quaker.
It’s hard to tell the difference with not many samples. All we have is our own famly to isolate. Out first cousin on the Jones/Smith side is the only way we have to isolate. Using the archaic samples I was hoping to pin down the origin of different matches.
I haven’t done FTDNA yet. I paid $39 a month ago to import my 23andMe sample, but it is not a compatible version. They gave me the option to pay $60 more and do a new test or refund $24. Now that I have the $60, I’m going to do it, so I can link up with the Saponi project and any family projects I can find through there. My mother has sent in her $199 mtDNA kit. Hoping this will give us more cousins to load into Genome Mate.
I had a thought for identifying the DNA that comes from my Blackfoot ancestor using GenomeMate. One of my Ancestry DNA matches is descended from Ralston line that does not include Nancy Agnes McLane, my Blackfoot ggggrandmother. I looked for this match on Gedmatch, so I could add her segment matches to the GenomeMate segment tool. I don’t find an email that looks like it is hers, so I sent her an email through Ancestry, so I can get her to upload her DNA sample. Theoretically, since I have Ralston segments already identified on GenomeMate using the matching DNA from someone who DOES have both Nancy Agnes McLane and John Ralston, Jr in her line, I should be able to use her match to isolate Ralston DNA from the Nancy Agnes McLane DNA, thus finding my Blackfoot DNA (and Ralston who some believe to be Cherokee).
I am hopeful to get a response from this person who is my DNA match, as she has been a very active Ralston genealogist on several forums.
@GGM – have you taken an autosomal DNA test? Did we check if we match? If we did, I might be able to prove the theory I have that William Sinkey’s mother, if Brighid (Green?) Sinkey was even his mother, was a Green. They were in Huntingdon, PA, but Richard Sinkey is listed on a census in 1790 with a George Green. In the cemetery where he is supposed to be buried is a marker that dates from that time that reads “Mary, wife of George Green.” There are empty spaces around her headstone that I believe to be the location of Richard and his wife, Birghid. And the cemetery is filled with other Greens.
Cindy
techteach;38429 wrote:
@GGM – have you taken an autosomal DNA test? Did we check if we match? If we did, I might be able to prove the theory I have that William Sinkey’s mother, if Brighid (Green?) Sinkey was even his mother, was a Green. They were in Huntingdon, PA, but Richard Sinkey is listed on a census in 1790 with a George Green. In the cemetery where he is supposed to be buried is a marker that dates from that time that reads “Mary, wife of George Green.” There are empty spaces around her headstone that I believe to be the location of Richard and his wife, Birghid. And the cemetery is filled with other Greens.
Cindy
Most of our Greens are buried at Greenhill Cemetery in Johnstown, Ohio, or Green Lawn Cemetery in Columbus, Ohio. Is this the George Green who is a son of Regnal?
We do not know who this George Green is. We speculate that Richard Sinkey’s wife was a Green, and George was her brother or other relative, somehow connected to the family. Our speculation is based on the fact that they end up in OH together. All speculation though.
Cindy
techteach;38429 wrote:
@GGM – have you taken an autosomal DNA test? Did we check if we match? If we did, I might be able to prove the theory I have that William Sinkey’s mother, if Brighid (Green?) Sinkey was even his mother, was a Green. They were in Huntingdon, PA, but Richard Sinkey is listed on a census in 1790 with a George Green. In the cemetery where he is supposed to be buried is a marker that dates from that time that reads “Mary, wife of George Green.” There are empty spaces around her headstone that I believe to be the location of Richard and his wife, Birghid. And the cemetery is filled with other Greens.
Cindy.
Yes, I did take an autosomal DNA test. I sent you a PM. Anxious to hear if we match…
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