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Just the fact that from an early time Saponis seemed to have liked living in log cabins might give a clue to help identify previously undetermined origins of unidentified and scattered Indian groups. Maybe?
I don’t know if this has ever been posted. It is mentioned in a deed (1982, A Saponi Note, Quarterly Bulletin of the Archealogical Society of Virginia, 37:42) from Amelia County Va. in 1737 that Saponis had CABINS there. This is the area of present Amelia along the Appomattox River down to and through what became Nottoway County along the Nottoway River. Nottoway Co. was formed from Amelia Co. in 1788.
In 1745 Henry Green was recorded as having land on Hurricane Swamp along the Nottoway River in present Nottoway County. I believe this is the same Henry Green recorded as living on Licking Place Branch (Smith Creek ? very very near Shocco Will’s land) in 1728 just downstream in present Dinwiddie County.
Richard Green had land on Birchin Swamp in 1739. Birchin Swamp and Hurricane Swamp are now within the boundaries of the Fort Pickett Military Reservation. William Sizemore (related to Henry Green) is also in old Amelia County during that time period. Does anyone know the location of these Saponi cabins?
Dan.
According to Brenda, the Gibsons and Riddles (Ridleys) are said to have lived in Amelia County, VA at some point in time.
http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/va/amelia/census/tith1736.txt
This isn’t all of the county…It should be noted that Amelia County was made from Prince George County.
A List of all the Titheables Below Deep Creek in 1736.
Transcribed, and submitted by: Steve Light, PO Box 428,
Haslett, MI 48840.
The list was taken by Abraham Green. Amelia microfilm reel
#55, Library of Virginia, 1736-1771. This is roughly the southern
2/3 of Amelia County. Prior to about 1735, this area was part of
Prince George County. In other words, these individuals were
residents of Prince George County the year before Amelia was
carved out of Prince George.
Anderson, Thomas Crawley, Wiliam Munns, Robert
Batte, William Cuzens, John Neal, William
Bevel, Daniel Cuzens, Peter Nobles, Joseph
Bevel, Thomas Dandy, William Parish, William
Bolling, Colonel Davis, Robt Potter, Thomas
Bolling, Widow Dennis, Richard Powell, John
Broadway, James Evans, John Reams, Thomas
Broadway, Thomas Jr Evans, Robt Roberds, Christopher
Burges, Benjamin Fannon, Brian Scott, Frances
Chambers, Richard Fletcher, Richard Shannon, William
Chapple, John Gam?, William Sheperd, Isaack
Childress, ? Gamlen, William Stoe, John
Childress, ? Gates, William Talley, Henery
Childs, Walter Gilliam, John Talley, John Sr
Chiswell, Uriah Green, Abraham Talley, Lodowick
Clay, Charles Hastings, John Talley, Richard
Clay, James Henderson, Elexandor Talley, William
Cock, Abraham Hudson, Christopher Tally, John Jr
Cole, ? Hudson, William Traylor, William
Coleman, Henery Jones, Abraham Tucker, Francis
Coleman, Joseph Laws, William Tucker, George
Coleman, Joseph Lees, Artour Tucker, John
Coleman, Robert Leton, Hugh Tucker, Robert Jr
Coleman, William Sr Light, John Jr Tucker, Robert Sr
Coleman, William Jr Mann, Robert Tucker, William
Colman, Henery Mann, Robert West, Robert
Cordle, John Morgan, Samuel Westbrook, Charles
Couzens, Robert Mumford, James Westbrook, William
Contributed by Steve Light (piercem6@pilot.msu.edu)
Uploaded to USGenWeb Archives by Carol A. Morrison
Not to be copied by any commercial organization or used for any
commercial purposes.
Originally posted by Dan Akin
Does anyone know the location of these Saponi cabins?
Hi Dan,
I don’t know if this will help, or not, but you might check out the “Blackfoot Creek (Appomattox Co., VA)” thread in “The Other Blackfoot” forum.
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2219
About the fourth post down, Techteach listed two websites. One is a map (Interactive map of John Smith) with major and minor Indian towns.
Stacey
Thanks! Here is a list of deeds that appear to have eventually ended up in present Nottoway County Va. The creeks, branchs and swamps are all in Nottoway I think. http://users.rcn.com/deeds/Nottoway.txt Let’s see, as far as I can tell, in 1703 Prince George Co. was formed from Charles City Co., 1734 Amelia from Prince George and a part of Brunswick, 1753 Prince Edward from Amelia and in 1789 Nottoway from Amelia. So, in 1735 Amelia contained the present counties of Amelia, Prince Edward and Nottoway Counties.
This is interesting. Knowing that William Eaton later allowed Saponis to live on his lands in Granville County N.C. here we have William Eaton in 1732 with 204 acres on the north side of Tomaheton Swamp in present Nottoway County and along the eastern county line. This is next to Birchin and Hurricane Creeks where Henry and Richard Green had land. I can’t find Fort Branch or Maury’s Creek where William Sizemore had land. Anyone know?
Dan.
Originally posted by Dan Akin
[….
This is interesting. Knowing that William Eaton later allowed Saponis to live on his lands in Granville County N.C. here we have William Eaton in 1732 with 204 acres on the north side of Tomaheton Swamp in present Nottoway County and along the eastern county line. This is next to Birchin and Hurricane Creeks where Henry and Richard Green had land. I can’t find Fort Branch or Maury’s Creek where William Sizemore had land. Anyone know?
Dan.
Dan.
I can’t answer your Sizemore question, but I do think the William Eaton connection is very, very interesting.
What do you know about him? I am also wondering if there was a swamp associated with the Granville Co. land–just curious.
Brenda
I’ll have something to say about Wm. Eaton, and maybe also swamps, presently. But since this thread was originally about Saponi cabins, I thought I’d just drop in the url that showed up today on the Material Culture thread I’ve been playing with. The site http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/ has many, many links, including some introductory chapters about the historical context of the Occaneechi Town near Hillsborough NC that was dug, beginning in 1983. Lawson visited this town in 1701 and called the dwelling places of the locals “cabins.” (The ibiblio site has a photographic reproduction of Lawson’s booklet, opened to the page on which he described this visit.) But from the archaeological evidence I believe it is clear they were not “log cabins” of the northern European type — found, in 1701, pretty much where the New Sweden colonists and their heirs, biologically or culturally, had lately settled. A little later than 1701 it is true that many, many native people lived in log cabins; but the word “cabin” doesn’t in itself imply log construction. Ships have cabins, for instance.
That is right. I mis-wrote when I spelled out “log cabins.” They could well have been constructed of other materials. Any idea as to their location?
Dan.
Brenda; He is mentioned in the Haliwa-Saponi history “Also migrating with these Indians were Virginia traders who wanted to continue their trade relations with these tribes. One of the most noted traders was Col. William Eaton an “Old Granville” resident who traded with the Saponi, Catawba, and others.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haliwa-Saponi
He is mentioned at http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/split/report47b.html “By 1754, at least one group of 30-40 Saponi had traveled to North Carolina and settled on the lands of William Eaton, where they were enumerated in the Colonial Records of North Carolina.”
This mentions, lower down, that Saponis were still in Virginia but no location was given.
Dan.
If you mean specifically the Saponi cabins referred to in that Amelia County VA deed of 1737, I don’t, really.
I looked at that long list you referenced (about three posts up) of mid 18th century Amelia Co. deeds, and one thing that sort of jumped out at me was the many references to Sweathouse Branch of Deep Creek. I have no particular reason to assume that this had reference to a Saponi sweathouse, but I do doubt if it was an Anglo-American one. Or a sauna (those were mostly in the Delaware and Chesapeake watersheds, at that time). Seems to me it would have been native — but of what tribe, I don’t know. You listed Uriah Green among those “below Deep Creek,” so the sweathouse might be fairly nearby.
Many of the Saponi (and closely related) settlements have been located by archaeologists; by early visitors who kept journals (the ones up to 1710 are referenced in that Briceland work I keep citing, and Wm. Byrd’s just a bit later are readily available in print); or by never having been lost, if they were settled in historic times (like Ft. Christanna). The later one works, the easier it is to find the folks on a good map, but the harder it is to make a persuasive case that they are Saponi. Personally, I think that is an interesting and worthwhile challenge. Forest Hazel has in my opinion taken the best shot at it, so far.
A good number of the Saponi settlements, before and after their diaspora, were in swampy areas — but that may not be diagnostic. Maybe the land was cheap; maybe they were avoiding somebody who was more averse to mosquito bites than they; maybe they really liked catfish.
Guess I should mention that my post of 11:32 is in response to Dan’s of 10:30 — since he posted again, and my “answer” doesn’t answer the last message before it.
I think it has been posted before, somewhere on the Forum, but maybe not this particular version of it. Anyway, here is Col. William Eaton’s militia roll of 1754. One of his company commanders was Osborne Jeffreys, a name often mentioned on this forum; and quite a few of those named have surnames found among the Saponi descendants, Melungeons, etc. Only a couple of the Chavers/Chavis family are specifically called “mulatto,” or any such term. But a good many others will have descendants so listed, in the near future — after census takers and such start getting more precise (at least, by their way of thinking).
http://www.geocities.com/vndander/eatonsmilitia1.html
Checking that Nottoway deeds list again for William Sizemore, it appears that he was on Fort Branch of Mayes’ Branch a branch off of Flat Creek. Checking my topo-map, Flat Creek has headwaters near Burkville in Nottoway Co. not too far from the Nottoway River and near the headwaters of Deep Creek. from there it heads up through Amelia County and empties into the Appomattox River near Chula.
Dan.
On a webpage called Indian/Melungeon Abstracts; 1737 (The deed already mentioned above), “Deed from Jn. Taylor of Surry Co. to Alex Bruce of Amelia Co. for 300 acres, beginning at a white oak ABOVE THE SAPPONE INDIAN CABINS, thence near a branch of WINNINGHAM CREEK, rite south of Winningham Creek.” Winningham Creek heads at the town of Crewe in Nottoway County Va. just a few miles east of Burkeville. Winningham then flows northeast and empties into Deep Creek and Deep Creek into the Appomattox River. Burkville (Mayes’ Creek), Crewe (Winningham Creek), and Blackstone (Hurricane Swamp) are all on the dividing ridge running west to east between the waters of the Appomattox and Nottoway Rivers.
Dan.
I don’t have topo maps of that area; but from what I can find on a regular VA highway map it looks as if the Sappone Cabins of 1737 are not very far from the sweathouse for which I assume, Sweathouse Creek was named. Somewhere west of Mannboro, VA? From Crewe, your Winningham Creek flows NE, maybe parallel to Sweathouse Creek? anyway, both empty into Deep Creek, in that general area. Could be ten or twenty miles apart, I guess, but that’s not so far.
I like to play with the Maps part of Google. On the start page, you click on “More,” select Maps from the ensuing menu, and enter an address or something you want to look at. You can see a regular road or street map, a satellite photo. or the one I like best, “hybrid,” in which the road map is superimposed on the satellite photo. For some parts of the country this coverage is very sketchy; but in more built-up areas you can see things like the shadow of somebody floating on a raft in his backyard pool. In the case of this part of Virginia, I think the largest scale photo available is about one inch to a half mile. Pretty large, really.
I want to correct something I said in error, fairly late last night. You *didn’t* list a Uriah Green on Deep Creek. I was looking at a list that was actually three columns wide, in which the codes that originally separated the columns have disappeared. So the line I was reading (left to right) says Chiswell, Uriah Green, Abraham Talley, Lodowick. Duh… it was Abraham Green. And he’s the one who compiled the other list you posted.
I have to add a story here that I’m sure you folks will appreciate. It is just a story and needs research but I’m tellin’ it none the less. I had a friend in my local council here with the Northern Cherokee. He was a big guy that claimed old Cherokee ancestry leading back before any rolls were taken. To be plain, Big Bob was a wierd color. Not brown but a kind of deep olive tone. He said his family had moved west with their slaves at an early date and had settled in the St. Louis area before eventually ending up in Audrain and neighboring Boone Counties in Mo. One of his ancestors had been an early sheriff of Audrain Co. Quickly checking his family myself , I traced them back to Henderson Co. Ky. through Knox/Grainger Cos. in Tenn. to Halifax Co. Va. to Lunenburg Co. Va. and then to Prince George Co. Va. Big Bob’s name was Bob Willingham. They appear to be the descendants of John Winningham who held land Sep. 28th, 1728 on the north side of Stoney Creek. He was a part of the Indian Trading community in the early 1700’s along the Nottoway River. Sappony Creek is just a few miles southeast of the dividing ridge in Nottoway Co. that I previously mentioned. Sappony Creek empties into Stoney Creek before it flows into Nottoway River.
Dan.
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