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I wish we could get ahold of the documentation there is of the few surnames known to be Saponi, the places where this info is cited.
Can you please be more specific with this! Iam not sure what it is or what source that you are citing , Tom
We’ve been told that there are only a half dozen or so surnames that are KNOWN to be Saponi — that belonged to documented tribal people. Those names are Alston, Austin, Irvin, Heathcock, Bowling, Harry, Griffin, Collins. What I’d like to know is, where are these different people mentioned? I know the Collins were in a court case where they were in trouble for firing a woods on somebody else’s property, but the others, I really don’t know what record there is about them, clearly stating who they are. These really are some things we ought to know.
Linda,
The Collins, Bowling, and Griffin were all three mentioned in the same document but I have no idea where the others came from.
1740
Orange County, Virginia. Order Book No. 3 1741-1743 (Microfilm, Genealogical Society of Utah, 1948).
At a Court held for Orange County on 27 January 1742 [1743 NS]. Thursday, the xxviith day of January MDCCXLIII.
p. 309: “Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manincassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack, Indians being brought before the Court by precept under the hands & seals of Wm Russell & Edward Spencer, Gent, for terrifying one Lawrence Strother & on suspicion of stealing hoggs . . . .”
pp. 309-312. The above put up security individually. It was ordered that their guns be taken from them till they are ready to depart out of this county, “they having declared their intentions to the Court to depart this colony within a week” (Orange Co., VA, Order Book 3, 1741-1743, 309). Orange Co., VA, Microfilm Reel 31, VA State Archives
Brenda,
I have often wondered about this list of names…..we know the Griffin Collins line forward and have different idea’s of who his father was….Lewis, John, Ambrose ? Anyway, the man listed with his last name as Griffin, Charles Griffin? With a John Collins listed along with a man having the last name as Griffin and then years later you have a Griffin Collins, I have often wondered if there was any connection to this choice of name?
Pertaining to the documented surnames:
[Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manincassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack, Indians being brought before the Court]
Charles Griffin, the origional, was supposely a white teacher but this document includes this “Charles Griffin” as an “Indian”. Does this mean an Indian took the name for himself making there two Charles Griffin?
http://www.geocities.com/frankoclark/richland/griffin.html
John Griffin’s family received a 250 acres grant on the waters of the Congaree (Toms and Griffins Creek area) in the year 1764. These Griffins were part of the large “free-person-of-color” community in Richland County c1790-1850. Were these the “Sandhillers?” John was possibly half Indian, perhaps Cherokee. His wife’s father was part Saponi from North Carolina. Absalom GRIFFIN, who lived in Richland c1770, was not listed as a person of color, so he and John may have been a half brothers. Sons were Gideon, Morgan and John. Daughter was Hannah or Johannah.
Referring back to names in document……Capt Tom and Blind Tom
The John Griffin recieved a land grant on waters of Congaree (Toms & Griffin Creek) I often wandered if when the Saponi’s left the county of Orange Virginia if they didn’t settled in in this area? Could this John & Absalom Griffin be related to Charles Griffin?
Perhaps if we look a little closer we might be able to find some of the other names in the document.
In essay titled “The Last Indians in Orange County, VA”, author cites document which states “the following ~Sapony Indians were arrested for hog stealing, burning the woods, etc, and brought to Orange County Court (held near Somerville Ford on the Rapidan River); their names were Alex ~Machartion, John Bowling, ~Maniassa, ~Caft Tom, Isaac Harry, Blind Tom., Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins and Little Jack.” Describes trial, guns taken, ordered to leave county, “several white gentlemen sympathizing with them, went security on their bail bonds, and the poor fellows soon settled up their affairs and left the county. Tradition however says Page 1 2 that one remained and long lived on the ~Gwin Mountains below Rapidan Station”. At Orange County Court in May 1740 William Bohannon made oath that “about 26 ~Saponey Indians, who inhabited Col. ~Spotwood’s land in ~Fox’s Neck (near ~Germanna on north side of Rapidan River) do mischief..” ~Grinnan saysthis ~Saponey band lived near & on the ~Meherrin River, Southern VA. Gov. Spotswood made efforts to “educate & Christianize them. They had schools and school-master and a minister, and were considered civilized Indians.” Hazel, Forest. 1991. ~”Occaneechi-Saponi Descendants in the North Carolina Piedmont”, Southern Indian Studies, V. 40: 2-29. Includes MAP of 4 contemporary ~Saponi communities in NC: the ~Orange/Alamance “Texas” or “Pleasant Grove Community”; the ~Alamance Co. ~”Burnette’s Chapel Community” with ~Bowdens, ~Burnettes, Whites, and ~Allens that may be of ~”Sissipahau” descent; the ~”Goinstown Community” in Rockingham Co. ~Goins, Hickman, Harris, Richardson, ~Kimmons; the Macon Co. settlement; and the Pre~-1780 settlement in ~Greensville Co., VA. 1701 the ~Occaneechi signed a treaty with VA, document shows ~Occaneechi, ~Stuckanok, & ~Tuttero signed treaty sep~arately, but were “dominated by the ~Saponi”. Fort ~Christianna operated from 1714~-17, (near present Lawrenceville, ~VA, where they had a school ~(Griffin’s School, Charles Griffin schoolmaster) & a minister, fort also served as trading center; trade & interpreter with Saponi~-Occaneechi
Linda,
Do we have any first names for the ALSTON, AUSTIN, IRVIN, surnames? We have some for most of the others, assuming they’re the same people.
Bill
Brenda,
Well I suppose I am postin again . . . just can’t stay away.
you said 2 posts ago, quotin’ somebody —
=============
At Orange County Court in May 1740 William Bohannon made oath that “about 26 ~Saponey Indians, who inhabited Col. ~Spotwood’s land in ~Fox’s Neck (near ~Germanna on north side of Rapidan River) do mischief..” ~Grinnan saysthis ~Saponey band lived near & on the ~Meherrin River, Southern VA. Gov. Spotswood made efforts to “educate & Christianize them.
==============
How could a person get a copy of this document, or its transcription? Oops, I see you left a link — I’m gonna go ‘n take a look at it. thanks for providin’ it. I appreciate it.
I am curious about “Germanna” mentioned above. A common name there at this “Germanna Settlement” was “Weiland”, and there is a big “Germanna” Website . . . one of their main surnames was “Weiland” which some of the families Anglicized to “Wayland”. The people there who created that website have researched my Waylands, descended from Nevil Wayland at “Strony Creek Primitive Baptist church” — and they state in a friendly manner on their website that there didn’t seem to be a link between their Germanna Waylands and those of Nevil Wayland, who happen to be mine, many of whom went to Arkansas in 1815. And they have a lot of information about the Arkansas Waylands even tho they say they don’t think they are related. They had looked into it before I ran into them, and I said nothing aboiut possible Indian blood when asking them.
There seems to have been a German settlement, and a man named “John Walker Wayland” (PhD) seems to have written about it. He wrote a history of the Shenandoah Valley and other books and I’d like to get ahold of someof his writings simply because of his name really 🙂 but some of it seems to apply as I keep running into it. But these people concluded my Waylands did not appear to have descended from his, the German Waylands — as “Nevil” was not a German name, and they didn’t fit any of their known genealogies.
What else is known about these Saponey’s who were near this Germanna settlement?
My ancestors were definitely Christian and this article says that they “Christianized” these Indians. There is word of “friendly” indians who helped build Fort Blackmore” and my people were there apparently. If Saponi were near this settlement then it is possible that some mixed race unions took place back then that the Germanna Settlement didn’t record.
I want to e-mail the peple at that “Germanna” website again and ask them what they know about any “Saponey Indians” living nearby. I don’t think they know about it but they might. Again, thank you Brenda for that bit of information. You never know when something that is meaningless to one person might be a flashlight in the darkness to someone else.
vance
[If Saponi were near this settlement then it is possible that some mixed race unions took place back then that the Germanna Settlement didn’t record. ]
I contacted a lady that was from the Spottswood family line and was told that Germanna was built on the edge of the frontier among the Indians (not that she said Saponi). I ask if she knew of any marriages or couples “taken up with” and she said no not personally but that knowing human nature there were probably several.
As for the article I posted: the 1740 court case gave the microfilm number and the page found. Orange County, Virginia. Order Book No. 3 1741-1743 (Microfilm, Genealogical Society of Utah, 1948).
(Orange Co., VA, Order Book 3, 1741-1743, 309). Orange Co., VA, Microfilm Reel 31, VA State Archives…….pp. 309-312
Happy digging and let us know if you turn up more.
Brenda
Brenda, Linda and others, I found this online, by doin’ a search using “Germanna” and “Saponi” as keywords, at the link below —
David Ives Bushnell: Excerpt from
Evidence of Indian Occupation in Albemarle County, Virginia
Coming of the Colonists
It is not known when a European first entered the region now embraced within the bounds of Albemarle County, but the earliest patents for the land in parts of Albemarle “on the far side of the mountains called Chestnut,” were taken out June 16, 1727. Within the next few years, several large grants were secured in the southern section of the county, bordering on the left bank of the James and extending some miles up the valley of the Rockfish, including the extensive soapstone quarries which had been worked by the native tribes. And during the year 1735 Thomas Moorman was granted 650 acres extending from the branches of Meadow Creek to the South Fork of the Rivanna “including the Indian Grave low grounds,”4 so designated by reason of the large burial mound which was then standing on the low ground a short distance from the right, or south bank of the stream. Some years later the mound was carefully examined and described by Jefferson in his “Notes on the State of Virginia.”
A few Indians may have been living in Albemarle County two centuries ago, but nothing definite is known concerning them. However, it is within reason to believe that small scattered groups, one or more families, would have been encountered throughout the surrounding country, all of which they had, so short a time before, claimed and occupied.
About this time Indians are known to have been living on the banks of the Rapidan, some miles below Orange Court House, as is revealed in an order made by the County Court in 1730. This is in part: “William Bohannon came into court and made oath that about twenty-six Sapony Indians that inhabit Colonel Spotswood’s land in Fox’s neck go about and do a great deal of mischief by firing the woods, more especially on the 17th day of April last whereby several farrows of pigs were burnt in their beds, and that he verily believes that one of the Indians shot at him the same day….”5 Fox’s Neck, mentioned in the order of the court, is a narrow spur of land, nearly a mile in length and bordered by the left bank of the Rapidan, immediately up the stream from Germanna bridge, the site of the settlement of Germanna. The Indians may have been some who had formerly lived at Fort Christanna. The fort was abandoned by the Colony in 1718, but the “Sapponey Indian Town” nearby was recognized as late as 1728 as belonging to the Saponi and allied tribes, and white settlers were not permitted to acquire the land. It is not know when the Indians were finally dispersed, but it is believed that not all left at the same time; they probably drifted away in small groups to seek new homes elsewhere. Not long after this a party of Indians visited the burial mound, “the Indian Grave,” on the low ground of the Rivanna and, as related by Jefferson, “staid about it some time, with expressions which were construed to be those of sorrow.” The mound, long since destroyed, is believed to have been the burial place belonging to the Saponi village, Monasukapanough, which occupied the level ground on both sides of the Rivanna, as described in “The Five Monacan Towns”, but which must again be mentioned. Although the mound may have disappeared by the beginning of the last century, it had been remembered as was clearly indicated on the map of the State of Virginia that accompanied the 1801 edition of Jefferson’s Notes. A small section of the map is reproduced in figure I. The “Indian Grave” is placed near the right bank of the Rivanna, a little west of north of Charlottesville, on the site of the ancient settlement. A view looking northward from the cliffs south of the right bank of the river, over a section of the village site, is shown in plate I. The course of the Rivanna is indicated by the line of trees beyond the cultivated field on the extreme right in the picture. The mound stood within this cultivated area, but its exact position is not known. The rising ground in the distance is on the left bank of the Rivanna and was occupied by part of the native village.
Some years ago the owner of the land, while plowing the low ground bordering the right bank of the stream, encountered a single burial, and although very near the surface, the bones were in a good state of preservation. Associated with the remains was a small soapstone pipe, figure 2, but no other object was noticed. The burial had been made in the stratum of sand and clay that had been deposited on the site after the abandonment of the village and should, therefore, be attributed to some of the wandering parties of Indians who visited the spot during the early part of the eighteenth century or even later.
4. Woods, Rev. Edgar, Albemarle County in Virginia. Charlottesville, 1901.
5. Scott, W. W., A history of Orange County, Virginia. Richmond, 1907.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~scsparta/spb_scot.htm
1. The above is a link to a history file for Spartansburg, South Carolina. I have mentioned before here but I am not sure where, that Nevil Wayland, my g-g-g-g-grandfather, went to the Tyger River in SC after the Revolutionary War. At the above site it says many families from Stafford and Culpepper Counties moved to Spartansburg, SC after the war.
Well Culpepper County — I looked this up — is just across the Rapidan River from Orange County, and that postyou left said “Germanna” was on the North side of the Rapidan river. From the map Culpepper County IS north of the Rapidan River, and Orange County is the southditde of it. I an’t explain this.
I have a friend who is helping me with the possible Gibson link who said there were Waylands in Culpepper County. and asked me if they were mine. Well, maybe they were.
2. This presents a paradox.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~scsparta/spb_scot.htm
Peple researching the Germanna settlers, some of which were “Waylands”, they say —
Nevil WAYLAND was born about 1754 He died in 1807 in , Russell Co., Virginia. Nevil married Keziah.
Reportedly served in Rev. War with the SC state troops.
NOTE: “The Izard County Historian”, Vol. 13, No. 1, January, 1982; article by Paul Townsend Wayland. Address for publication is: P.O. Box 84, Dolph, AR 72528. Phone 501-297-3751.
This line from Nevil is not believed to be connected to the Germanna Waylands. The author of the above article had the same conclusion, and he had done more research on this line than any other person. He states that there are over 30 different references in the archives of South Carolina to Nevil Wayland serving in the Rev. War, including a land grant of 228 acres on the Tyger River.
These people concluded that Nevil was born in SC. I don’t think that is “known”. Many of the poeple receiving these land grands are recorded from Spartanburg SC sources as being from Culpepper County, Va.
IF they were from Culpepper County, they they most likely ARE from the Germanna Community Waylands. If Nevil was from this area, and if he is not recognized as a descended of Thomas Weiland, the original German Immigrant that these Waylands came from, where did he come from, then?
I would think Linda you would want documentation on any Siouan surname from the area, the Guy Family the Jeffries Family are both documented by the United States Senate as Catawba, the Jeffries come from Greenville VA.
George
Brenda Collins Dillon wrote: Pertaining to the documented surnames:
[Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manincassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack, Indians being brought before the Court]
Charles Griffin, the origional, was supposely a white teacher but this document includes this “Charles Griffin” as an “Indian”. Does this mean an Indian took the name for himself making there two Charles Griffin?
http://www.geocities.com/frankoclark/richland/griffin.html
John Griffin’s family received a 250 acres grant on the waters of the Congaree (Toms and Griffins Creek area) in the year 1764. These Griffins were part of the large “free-person-of-color” community in Richland County c1790-1850. Were these the “Sandhillers?” John was possibly half Indian, perhaps Cherokee. His wife’s father was part Saponi from North Carolina. Absalom GRIFFIN, who lived in Richland c1770, was not listed as a person of color, so he and John may have been a half brothers. Sons were Gideon, Morgan and John. Daughter was Hannah or Johannah.
Referring back to names in document……Capt Tom and Blind Tom
The John Griffin recieved a land grant on waters of Congaree (Toms & Griffin Creek) I often wandered if when the Saponi’s left the county of Orange Virginia if they didn’t settled in in this area? Could this John & Absalom Griffin be related to Charles Griffin?
Perhaps if we look a little closer we might be able to find some of the other names in the document.
In essay titled “The Last Indians in Orange County, VA”, author cites document which states “the following ~Sapony Indians were arrested for hog stealing, burning the woods, etc, and brought to Orange County Court (held near Somerville Ford on the Rapidan River); their names were Alex ~Machartion, John Bowling, ~Maniassa, ~Caft Tom, Isaac Harry, Blind Tom., Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins and Little Jack.” Describes trial, guns taken, ordered to leave county, “several white gentlemen sympathizing with them, went security on their bail bonds, and the poor fellows soon settled up their affairs and left the county. Tradition however says Page 1 2 that one remained and long lived on the ~Gwin Mountains below Rapidan Station”. At Orange County Court in May 1740 William Bohannon made oath that “about 26 ~Saponey Indians, who inhabited Col. ~Spotwood’s land in ~Fox’s Neck (near ~Germanna on north side of Rapidan River) do mischief..” ~Grinnan saysthis ~Saponey band lived near & on the ~Meherrin River, Southern VA. Gov. Spotswood made efforts to “educate & Christianize them. They had schools and school-master and a minister, and were considered civilized Indians.” Hazel, Forest. 1991. ~”Occaneechi-Saponi Descendants in the North Carolina Piedmont”, Southern Indian Studies, V. 40: 2-29. Includes MAP of 4 contemporary ~Saponi communities in NC: the ~Orange/Alamance “Texas” or “Pleasant Grove Community”; the ~Alamance Co. ~”Burnette’s Chapel Community” with ~Bowdens, ~Burnettes, Whites, and ~Allens that may be of ~”Sissipahau” descent; the ~”Goinstown Community” in Rockingham Co. ~Goins, Hickman, Harris, Richardson, ~Kimmons; the Macon Co. settlement; and the Pre~-1780 settlement in ~Greensville Co., VA. 1701 the ~Occaneechi signed a treaty with VA, document shows ~Occaneechi, ~Stuckanok, & ~Tuttero signed treaty sep~arately, but were “dominated by the ~Saponi”. Fort ~Christianna operated from 1714~-17, (near present Lawrenceville, ~VA, where they had a school ~(Griffin’s School, Charles Griffin schoolmaster) & a minister, fort also served as trading center; trade & interpreter with Saponi~-Occaneechi
Hi Ms Collins, I am new to SaponiTown and this is the first time that I have posted. I hope that I am doing it right. I saw your post on the Griffin Family of Richland County S.C. I believe that these Griffins do have a connection to the Saponi along with the Rawlinson side of my family. I know that Rawlinson is not a name that is commonly associated with the Saponi, but I will try to explain the connection here. From Studying migration patterns of various families that were considered “free persons of color” or “other free”, I have come to believe that my Rawlinson family are descendants of the Saponi. My family migrated from Virginia to N.C. to S.C. and then to GA and North FL. From my research I know that the Griffins and Rawlinsons along with other surnames associated with the Saponi and other Eastern Siouan Indians like the Bunchs, Jeffries, Harris, Chavis and Jacobs were listed in the 1750 tax lists of Granville Co. N.C. as “other free” or “free persons of Color”. These families, with others, migrated from the Granville Co. area to the Richland Co. S.C. area. “John Griffins family received a 250 acres grant on the waters of the Congaree(Toms and Griffins Creek area) in the year 1764. These Griffins were part of a large free person of color community in Richland County c1790-1850.” My Rawlinson family was also recorded in S.C. records as recieving land in the same area. In 1764, William Rawlinson recorded a plat of land for 400 acres and in 1769 Benjamin Rawlinson, my 5th Grt Grandfather, recorded a memorial for 200 acres on Congaree and Wateree Rivers. In 1770, he recorded a memorial for 100 acres between Wateree and Congaree Rivers(Toms and Griffins Creek Area). Benjamin’s daughter Patience married Gideon Griffin, the son of John Griffin and Miles Bunch. Miles Bunch was the daughter of Gideon Bunch. In this area, there WAS a Large commnity of “other free” or “free persons of color”. In 1810 there were 10 Rawlinson/Rollinson families listed a “Other Free”. Also in this same area in 1810, there are several other families listed as “Other Free” which are surnames that are associated with the Saponi, Catawba, Lumbee and Other Eastern Siouan Indians which included: Griffin, Jeffries, Harris, Evans, Scott, Jacobs, Chavis and Sweat. In a tax document from 1822 of Richland District, S.C., a list of free people of color delinquent in the personal tax expected of them included the names, Harris, Oxendine, Wilson, Locklier, Sweat, Gibson, Jacobs, Chavis, Simmons and Jones. All these families and others made up this Large “Free Person of Color” or “Other Free” Community in Richland Co. S.C. From my reaearch of these families and their migration patterns, I am almost certain that they were descendants of the Saponi and other Eastern Siouan Tribes. I hope that I explained the connection were it is understandable. I would also like to mention other names within my family that are connected to Eastern Siouan Indians and Melungeons. My family names are: Roberson, Kelly, Evans, Jones, Wood, Davis, Johns, Walker, West and Ammons
I just came across this mention of a John Austin with a Saponi wife:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=monkeys&id=I33414
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