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Need some help on this one. I was shown this information and have not researched it out. Can anyone here confirm this or help me translate its meaning?
Henry Howard was born out of wedlock to Amanda Collins and William S. “Big Bill” Howard. (See History Bell Co.,KY by Fuson)
Fuson gets the birth date wrong on William as the census shows 1806 or there after. William lived at Streight Creek on one side of Cumberland Ford/Pineville and my Collinses lived on the other side, about 40 to 50 of them along with Amanda Collins on Clear Creek and Greasy Creek. Henry, Sol, Levi, Isiah, Aaron, and David 1750 are there. Hiram is a brother and Abraham are both gone to Clay County, KY by 1806.
Amanda is said to have taken Henry to Clay County for safety due to a fued between the Collins and the Howards caused when some Collins knifed “Big Bill”. Amanda leaves Henry there and disappears. Henry is supposedly found in 1830 census in Abraham’s houshold at the age of 4 possibly 5.
All the other Collins have left Knox County by this time. Archives for Frankfort, KY Clay County film 984492 speaks about an 1832 incident were Abraham, Hiram, and Bradley Collins along with some others are accused of the death of Robert Wickliff.
Bradley is a son of Merideth Collins.
William Morris askes to to go and get a deposition from Kezia Gregory and never returns. The statute of limitation runs out and no trial. By 1834 Abraham Collins is in Martin or Morgan County, Indiana buying 80 acres of land.
When Henry Collins marries, Abraham Collins and Christine (Poulton/Poulson/Posting) Collins sell him 40 acres.
In 1856 a court document and proceedings try to classify Abraham Collins as negro.
In 1830 Abraham appears in Clay County, KY census, but where is he in 1840?
In 1850 Abraham is in Morgan County, Indiana race listed as “M” living next to Henry Howard.
So is there any connection between Abraham Collins and David Collins 1750?
Is Abraham a brother to David?
I think that you may want to have alook at Brenda Coliins’ web site, there was a link to it posted back abit, look in the genealogical threads.
Iam sure that you’ll find David listed there.
Good Luck!
Thanks Tom, yes Branda’s information is what I am following up on. Several people in my family have questions about the information and are wanting to get a better understanding of how these conclusions were reached.
Here is a question about census reports and slavery.
The following is an excerpt from the 1830 KY census transcribed as it reads:
1830 Clay Co. census –
Abraham Collins – one white male under 5; one white female 20-30; one male slave 24 – 36
Now the question about this listing, is it possible for a slave to have been also considered the head of household in 1830 Clay County, KY?
The way I look at this census I see Abraham listed by name only then people in the house listed seperatly. Is that an accurate translation of the document?
Others in my family look at it and see that Abraham had to be one of those listed next to his name and conclude that the slave was the head of household, so they question it.
Also Hiram Collins is listed in the 1830 Morgan Co. Indiana census. Is it possible that a teacher (Hiram) would have traveled back to Clay County Kentucky by 1832 to be included in the court case with Abraham?
These are some of the questions being asked by my family.
Collins,
It looks like the 1830 census taker is listing FPCs in the ‘slave’ columns throughout.
There is a Hiram Collins in 1830 Clay Co., Ky, p.172:
1 white male under 5.
1 male ‘slave’ 24 to 36.
1 female ‘slave’ 10 to 24.
There is also a Hiram Collins in 1830 Morgan Co., Ind, p.241:
(All listed as white)
1 male under 5.
1 male 5 to 9.
1 male 15 to 19.
1 male 30 to 39.
2 females under 5.
1 female 5 to 9.
3 females 10 to 14.
1 female 30 to 39.
……
Bill
Bill, Thanks for the further information on this census issue.
I did want to update.
I went to Brenda’s site and did find that Bradley Collins had a son named Hiram. I am wondering if that was the Hiram mentioned in the court case in Kentucky. Bradley’s Hiram and the school teacher Hiram back in Indiana appear to be two different Hirams.
Also this census listing all “FPC’s” as slaves, it is curious about the white child under 5 years.
Do you have any ideas about that?
I have a limited knowledge of how slave households were listed. I actually never knew that slaves would have been recognized as having a household. I knew they lived in houses, but I would have guessed that the owner of the slave would have been listed as head of household.
Sorry for my ignorence.
There were two related Hirams. Just how, requires some additional research but it is plain that they were.
And well, no. Slaves could never be ‘named’ as “Heads of Households” (i.e., “persons” ) in this time period and in this context without admitting that they were human which was against the law. My take-away conclusion is that they were niether black nor white.
No ‘slave’ household would have been ennumerated because ‘property’ was not counted as ‘human’ . Specific to this particular ennumerator, to ‘count’ them as he did, would mean that he saw his world as either white or non-white. If ‘non-white’, then all of ‘them’ must be ‘slaves’, even if they were free people, “not otherwise differentiated” .
That several households’ adults were ennumerated as ‘slaves’ AND that he felt the need to ‘count’ them, tells us only that THIS ennumerator did not regard them as ‘white’ which only means that he saw them as non-white – it is not a racially defining fact as you are interpreting it.
Other ennumerators saw the same families differently in other parts of the country.
Bill
Thank you for helping me to understand this data.
I personally feel that all these Collins are in fact related. There have been several researchers that come to the same conclusions as well. I have a handful of family members that are not convinced about these finds and so I am getting questions about the data that I really never have gone into in my own research.
In trying to get myself caught up with current research efforts I keep running into areas where I either have wholes in the information that I have or unanswered questions concerning certain lines. While I am trying to catch up with all this information I am also getting questions from my relatives at the Collins Family site. Some times I am able to answer the question and some times not.
May I have your permission to cross-post your explaination about Hiram and Abraham?
Thank you for your time in explaining it.
O.k. found this thread finally. It was driving me batty trying to figure out what I was thinking of. Geez
Guess that little search is over Bill.
Collins,
See this from Morgan co Ind.?
Print Message
MORGAN CO MARTINSVILLE GAZETTE NEWSPAPER
2 July 1857 EXECUTOR’S SALE
On Friday, the 17th day of July, 1857, at the late residence of Hiram Collins, dec’d., in Clay township, Morgan County, Indiana, I will ?? at public auction the personal property of said deceased, consisting of: 1 horse, 2 cows and calves, hogs, sheep, household and kitchen furniture, farming utencils, Standing meadow, and other articles. A credit of nine months will be given on all sums over $3, the purchaser to give his note with approved security, waiving relief from valuation or appraisement laws.
JOHN ROBB, Ex’r. June 7th, 1857
Other info I saw showed this Hiram as son of David and Thompsie Posting. Showed two of Hiram’s children marrying Creed children. This….cont’d
This got my curiosity as Creed is a direct line from way back in Va.
You showed Abraham and Christine Posting as well? Interesting!
Saj
Yes, the Creeds and Bradfords married the Collinses up there and they had bought some lands that had white clay in it. They were able to sell it and make a lot of money. They were in Green Township in Indiana. That would be Morgan County. Some of the area is now a part of a trust for poor children run by Indiana State University. Bradford Woods I think is the name of it. Hiram was a manager of realestate for several family members up there namely the family of John K. Jones. They were associated with the John Wesley Creed and Thomas Valentine Creed whom was married to Cynthia Johnson. Isaac Stafford Creed another son to John Wesley Creed ended up with the old Creed family farm. Isaac’s son Bobby Lee Creed whom still resides there. Jeffery Allen Buster, a grandson of of Isaac Creed’s bought the remainder. The original house is still there as of 1989 or so.
On Abraham Collins, I know he is related cause they all go back to the Collins and Johnsons back in Kentucky. It is the paper trail that some want to show it for a fact though. I had got Amos and Abraham mixed up in my head the other day and could not for the life of me find this thread. Glad I did.:)
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