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I happened to mention to one of them one night about being indian and asked him if he was also since he was Mexican. I could look at him and know he was but he got upset and said I’m no indian like we are diseased or something.
I’ve seen that reaction, too, and get the feeling it’s the majority opinion. What I say is, if Mexicans can say they aren’t Indian, us American mixed bloods can say we are.
Tom Said: “I think that the real issues here are “illegal immegrants” not race, descent or nationality.”
You are so right Tom. It isn’t about race, it’s about what is legal. It’s about being honest and starting out right in a new country.
People who enter any country illegally are starting their relationship with that country on a lie, they continue to live a lie and no relationship can survive that. Sooner or later the lie is exposed and the liar is exposed for what he/she is. An immoral person who will lie or steal or cheat to get what they want.
Where I draw the line is when people move into a country and demand rights that are not due them. No illegal alien has the same rights as a native-born person does. They are ‘guests’ in their adopted country and should conduct themselves that way. With respect for the laws of the land. By entering illegally they start their relationship on a lie and continue on a lie. That isn’t a relationship, that is theft of our resources etc. Ok. Enough of that.
I’ll stop there or I’ll get into trouble LOL
As for the re-browning of America. My late father in law used to say, “In time we’ll all be a little swarthy.” And it is very likely that American will become a brown nation again due to intermarriage within the races. That’s just fine with me. I have no prejudice against any race. I have always said that if we were all blind we couldn’t see color anyway. Of course, then the racists would find another way to be prejudice, wouldn’t they?
Personally, I haven’t thought too much about the Mexicans being NA ‘brothers’ before. I have always kept American Indians and the Mexican Indians seperate in my thinking. They are one country and we are a different one. Having said that, I am sure that many of the same Indian tribes traveled back and forth between the two countries before the borders were set down so maybe in that respect it would be hard to distinguish some Mexican Indians from U.S.A. Indians since I’m sure they must have interbred or been the some of the same tribes.
But I do generally think of the Mexican Indians, The Incas etc, as a seperate type of Indian than our U.S.A. Indians. Perhaps that is just ignorance on my part and I need to educate myself.
My understanding is that Mexicans came about because the Spanish interbred with the local Indians and so Mexicans were the result. If that’s so, you wouldn’t be getting a ‘pure’ Indian line anyway. You’d have Spanish in the mix. So, I, personally, don’t see the re-browning of America being accomplished by interbreeding with Mexicans. It could possibly get us a little closer, but it wouldn’t be ‘pure’ NA. Of course, ‘pure’ NA would never really happen anyway because there are so few, if any 100% NA’s left in the world anyway. Many had a white man in the woodpile somewhere.
Just like a neighbor of mine who hated anyone not NA. She only tolerated me because I was part NA. She was one of the most prejudice people I have ever met. Anyway, after we had been friends for about ten years she confessed to me that her grandfather was white. So she was 1/4 white. She had sisters who were 1/2 black and she hated them because of it. Would not have anything to do with them. She disowned her own daughter because she had a black child. But she was living a lie, because she was not ‘pure’ Indian anyway. It’s this kind of mentality that causes a lot of problems for us who are trying to find our NA roots.
And no, we are not friends any longer. I got tired of being ‘less than’ because I wasn’t raised on a reservation like she was.
Ok. enough said. I’ll stop here, or I’ll get myself in trouble.
We have a Mexican resturant right down the road and I have befriended several of them they are legally here. And Lynne is right about them not caring about the American Indian. I hapened to mention to one of them one night about being indian and asked him if he was also since he was Mexican. I could look at him and know he was but he got upset and said I’m no indian like we are diseased or something. I was offended by his attitude. I asked him if he was indigeous to Mexico and he said yes….I just said I rest my case.
The Mexican government has a terrible reputation on the way it treats its Indian tribes. I assume that many of you remember news reports of the way that they have cheerfully tried to exterminate some of them. Though Latin America is not something that I research or dwell on, its not bloody likely that I would forget a report of a modern government trying to harrass or extinguish its Indian population.
Lets face it, Mexico has evolved as a society and a country just as much as any other western hemisphere country has. It too, has issues about race and ethnicity. It too has its eurocentrisim. A little research on this question would reveal a lot. Whether or not, there is a lot of Indian DNA in Mexico, this doesn’t mean that they identify as Indians. From my contact with them, they don’t. They are Latinos. Latinos are a culture all their own. They feel as one “people”, based on their Latino heritage. Latino heritage is not the same as North American Indian. Latino culture is significantly different from that of the North American Indian….and I mean NOW, not 500 years ago….but lets go ahead and travel back 500 years…it was just as different between the Indians of Mesoamerica and those of North America back then as well.
All of this talk about Mexicans being Indians based on their color, well, frankly that is racist. After a lifetime of examining my thoughts and reactions for racist ones, I don’t plan to learn to become racist. I read a lot of North American Indians who write on the web, speaking in racist terms, frankly. I notice this, but its not for me to disapprove or even bring it to their attention…why?…because they grew up and learned to think in a racist society, and no matter what they say….what they do say is imbued with racisim. I’m not talking about a general “bitch” session, where life experiences are related, I’m talking about their take on the policies of different tribal governments….and they may be right about these Tribal governments….they too were all raised in a racist society.
If we people are to bring our people back in focus, we can’t afford to be racist about it.
Quest writes:
They have there own agenda so I believe if they come here they need to be legal. Part of me comes from immigrants and part of me is indigeous to this land and this is my home. Please don’t be mislead to believe things will change for us if the gov’t lets them in cause it will not.
Me:
This is what I forsee on this issue. The “rebrowning” of America, as I have heard it called, will most likely end the reservation system, abolish affirmative action, and fundamentally change most of the progress that has been made in trying to create an equal playing field between the races that it has taken over 100 years for us to achieve. Perhaps this is an overly bleak view of things, but being the cynic that I am, I don’t see Latinos giving a flying fart about Rez Indians, the lands of the Rez, affirmative action, programs to aid Indians or blacks, Indian schools, dying Indian languages, or a lot of the safety net.
Quest:
Plus 8 million or so acres in North Carolina once belonged to my people we can’t get our land back what’s makes them think they can? War sucks but the spoils do go to the victors whether they were the ones in the right or not. Believe me the Tuscarora rightly waged that war on the colonist…try to steal my children and see if I don’t wage war on you. All they did was try and protect their own families and I will never fault them for that I am proud of them. Most history books will tell you it was because of the encroachment on our land and they fail to mention about our children being stolen and sold into slavery. Doesn’t matter how peaceful a people are steal their children and see what happens. ok I’m off the subject just wanted to explain why I feel they need to be legal.
Me:
Either this is a nation and a country, or it isn’t. Even in the days of our ancestors, they had their own territories, which they defended until they could not do so anymore. We don’t live in the past. The past is gone. We are here now, because we survived the past. We are part of this country…heck…much of this country’s ideals, food, and way of life is based on Indian ways. This is no time to opt out and remarginalize ourselves. Nobody is going to reclaim our past for us. Our past does not reside in the color of our skins. There is a lot of “blood” running under that old bridge….and we emerge being what we are now. We are what we are, in spite of your present color. If our people can’t get past this…..there really is not much hope for us. We have full knowledge of what happened to make us this way…it does no good to pretend it didn’t happen. It does no good to pretend that somebody else, from wherever they may come, is going to respect, understand, and aid us in our efforts to reclaim our place. This is naive
Lynne
Tom wrote: I think that the real issues here are “illegal immegrants” not race, descent or nationality.
If you say all Mexicans, then you blanket them all, if you say “Indians” then you cover only some, if you cover some then you forget or reject the others.
Try this one on for size, Caucasian Mexicans speaking German (as a first language) coming to your town and saying ” this is our country, this is our home”! these folks haven’t been here for 100 years and only come back because things are now better and safer here than anywhere else, besides that they fit in with the rest of the Anabaptists, guess who the biggest body of illegals are uphere!?
I understand what you are saying….I especially liked the part about Caucasian mexicans…because there are a lot of those too……which brings me to the statement that “Mexico” is not a race, anymore than “America” is a race.
And to top it off, I thought all us high school grads had already learned there there is no such thing as race anyway. It helps to remember that….there is no biological reality to the idea of race.
We all need to quit buying into the illusion of race, because it is a negative illusion, not a postive one.
Heavens, the forum has alerted me that my message is too short to post….so I will now entertain you with a musical interlude……ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE….wa wa wa WA WA.
Tom:
I really don’t care where some one is from where they are going and what nationality that they are are, just don’t forget that it was the people that are citezens and thier hosts that made our homeland what it is today!
All of my family put thier lives on the line for this country and my freedom, and I will not allow anyone to breakdown my door and say “I am here” and “you have to put up with me”.
If any illegal was honest and wanted to make a better life for themselves they wouldn’t start off by breaking the laws of the land that they hope to join!
Me:
Because my message is still too short…I can only say that there are many excuses for what is happening, almost as many as there are valid reasons. I can only say that the effort must be made to think clearly and avoid illusions.
Lynne
Some of you may know that my husband is Mexica. because this is just my belief and there are major indigenous issues at hand for us and our bothers and sisters. Lets go back here… Im gonna use this as a history type example, ok lets say we are Lakota decendents k and the Lakota were further east… Its no secret where the Mexica were they were at one time really not that long ago north of Utah and in Cali, so what makes our brothers and sisters illiegal? when the border crossed them? I understand this is really not just an issue of Mexicans/Aztecs/Mexica but. We traded with these people, There are many definitions of what indian is, but how can we judge them when they went through a genocide as we did how can we tottaly fault them for weather they know their indian ancestry or not. It is no different than the struggle we face, with tribal adentity is it not? Being recognized?
Do some of us as mixed indegenous people not embrace all that we are? Do we not recognise the 4 colors the 4 directions. Again and to their brothers and sisters further to the south of them coming up. I have said in post long ago, we are united by the Federation of the Eagle and the Federation of the Condor. United, Unite, Accept, Educate, EMbrace, LOve , and peace, My tag is
Creator Unite your people. To much fight agaisnt indegenous people being united why let this one win?
WHo criminalized this was you or was it the treaties? the ALmo? who put in our heads that this is a criminal act when we have crossed and migrated for thousands of years. WOuld we deny our Taino brothers and sisters from trading on the mainland because they were living on Islands?
Just wanted to add some thoughts. I say all this with much respect to my family here, It is worth a serious think especially when here we are trying to find and help our Ancestors live on and through us, in Creators perfect will.
Some of you may know that my husband is Mexica. because this is just my belief and there are major indigenous issues at hand for us and our bothers and sisters. Lets go back here… Im gonna use this as a history type example, ok lets say we are Lakota decendents k and the Lakota were further east… Its no secret where the Mexica were they were at one time really not that long ago north of Utah and in Cali, so what makes our brothers and sisters illiegal?
Me:
There’s a lot of ways I could have pulled your leg on this, and out of respect, I didn’t.
As someone who has paid 3 grand to the federal gov., and am about to pay $300 more dollars for the sake of my resident alien spouse, I’m in a really good position to tell you what makes a person illegal.
Other than that, Be Well.
Lynne
austinconection
It all comes down to respect for one another and love thy neighbor as thyself.
I’m sure if everyone wanted peace throughout the world – the skin and blood would make no difference to each of us. We must forget prejudice and racism
disrespect and lack of tolerance for the past. We muct march on to a more
peaceful living for us all. A house deivided against itself cannot stand and we
must obey the laws of our land as well as those of a “higher power”
We must have laws to abide by for there are those who would destroy our
very existence for greed, power and recognition.
It is the evil in the hearts of men that creates all the discord.
I once heard a saying “Rise above it!” Don’t let thelittle foxes spoil the vines.
Austinconection
Tshwe’n,
I work with Mexicans every work day of my life,I interpret for the Employment Office. I have Mexicans from all over Mexico come in. Some speak there own language and never spoke Spanish until they started school. They are from the Aztec,Maya,Mixtec,Zapotec,Lacandon and many other Tribes/Nations of Mexico. In Mexico 90 % of the population have Native blood. I have talked to many of them about this same subject “Indian”. The word “Indian” in Mexico has become to them as the “N” word is to Black Americans. Mexico is a caste system,almost everyone has Native blood,and not all Natives in Mexico are mixed,there are probably more Full-Bloods then you think. But those that choose to speak their Native language,dress in their Native clothing,live in their Native Communities are considered “Indian” the “N” word. Those that choose to leave and become modernized are no longer “Indian”. So you see its not a racial thing,its a caste system.
I have talked to Mexicans at work,and have asked them if they are “Indian” and the answer was no,I am Mexicano. Then I would say do you have “Indian” blood and they would say Yes. So you see they have “Indian Blood” but they are not “Indian” because they don’t live that life style.
I have though talked with many that do speak their language,dress in their Traditional dress and lived in their Native Communities before coming here and are proud to be “Indian”,only they don’t say “Indian” they say “Native”. They say that they have always been “Native” but were not always “Indian”. You see they know all about Christopher Columbus and the word “Indio” not being who they are.
The Mexican people today do not want to be called “Hispanic”(Europeans from Spain),they don’t want to be called “Latinos”(Europeans from Italy),They are saying we are “Mexicanos” “La Raza”.
Oo-neh
Eh-thah’-dee-geh-gwast-nehk
Oo-yeh’-gweh Neh-rah’-gwah’
mdsmokedancer wrote: Tshwe’n,
I work with Mexicans every work day of my life,I interpret for the Employment Office. I have Mexicans from all over Mexico come in. Some speak there own language and never spoke Spanish until they started school. They are from the Aztec,Maya,Mixtec,Zapotec,Lacandon and many other Tribes/Nations of Mexico. In Mexico 90 % of the population have Native blood. I have talked to many of them about this same subject “Indian”. The word “Indian” in Mexico has become to them as the “N” word is to Black Americans. Mexico is a caste system,almost everyone has Native blood,and not all Natives in Mexico are mixed,there are probably more Full-Bloods then you think. But those that choose to speak their Native language,dress in their Native clothing,live in their Native Communities are considered “Indian” the “N” word. Those that choose to leave and become modernized are no longer “Indian”. So you see its not a racial thing,its a caste system.
I have talked to Mexicans at work,and have asked them if they are “Indian” and the answer was no,I am Mexicano. Then I would say do you have “Indian” blood and they would say Yes. So you see they have “Indian Blood” but they are not “Indian” because they don’t live that life style.
I have though talked with many that do speak their language,dress in their Traditional dress and lived in their Native Communities before coming here and are proud to be “Indian”,only they don’t say “Indian” they say “Native”. They say that they have always been “Native” but were not always “Indian”. You see they know all about Christopher Columbus and the word “Indio” not being who they are.
The Mexican people today do not want to be called “Hispanic”(Europeans from Spain),they don’t want to be called “Latinos”(Europeans from Italy),They are saying we are “Mexicanos” “La Raza”.
Oo-neh
Eh-thah’-dee-geh-gwast-nehk
Oo-yeh’-gweh Neh-rah’-gwah’
That is very interesting. I did not know that the word “Latinos” refers to Europeans from Italy.
My opinion on the “illegal immigrant debate”: I dislike it, it is wrongful, not respectful and needs to cease. I don’t have answers as to how to make that happen but I do feel that this topic has swayed a bit and yes, it is heated and stirs up many emotions and opinions…entitlement, in any illegal or immoral form is gross. Makes me ask: What would Jesus Do (remember those bracelets with “WWJD” that were floating around just a few years ago>?) …is the answer a religious approach? A Political one? A Government one? One of the People? A National issue? I just don’t have the answers…I wish for the sake of many that it could be peacefully resolved but I don’t see that happening either any too soon. I pay taxes, abide by the goverment rules and guidelines…as should anyone who chooses to be “here” in this melting pot Country. A little tale (2 actually): 1. I married a man from another country…took me over 2 years and thousands of dollars to get him here legally…I did my part…followed the rules and he still is not a US citizen but continues to stay here and work here and pay taxes here…waiting for his “permanent resident visa”…which has been put on hold in large part because of Government “tightening” since the 9/11 horror…so who knows when he will either become a US citizen or be forced to leave. He left my home some years ago…is working as a trucker driving all over this country but because he is not a citizen, I cannot legally “divorce” him…sucks for me but I am married legally to a man I have not laid eyes on in years, gain NO measure of financial recompense from, and he is here legally but is not yet legally a citizen. Our Government was all too happy to allow me to bring him here and toss then just oodles of money over the years but they just won’t allow him to stay fully legally…just yet…nor will they allow me to divorce him…which continues to be a financlial burden for a man that abandoned my home…my advice: just say NO…don’t go THERE. *wink* Story 2: I am 1 of 7 children…the “baby”…my next oldest sib, my brother worked all his life as a painter…and he is dern good at it too…self employed sub contracting work was his mainstay for over 27 years until his “bosses” decided to hire some much cheaper employees to paint…namely some fellas from south of our border who work for much less an hourly wage than was the “industry standard” for so many men (and women) in that employ. He went to another employer…sorry…we have some fellas from the South that work for us…blah blah blah….over and over again he heard this…it is depressing to say the least. My brother, who typically made about 12 bucks an hour painting could not find any job…they were all locally consumed by apparently hard working fellas from the South…he lost his home….lost his profession…lost his way truly…came here…and has lived with me, supporting him for over a year now. Painting is all he knows…his only “skillset”…his profession, locally, has been swallowed up by fellas from the South who are here illegally, who WILL work very very hard for a mere 5-7 bucks an hour…suffice it to say it is a very “sticky topic” in our household….he wants hsi job back…his life back…his home back…and I get that and empathize with his stance but that doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon…there are far too many “illegals” here locally that are willing to work for a quite low wage and make living sacrifices that others do not: such as living communally: where numbers of these workers occupy 1 apartment…they faithfully send money to their family in teh South…that is groovy but the crux of it all is they are here illegally and they , or at least 2 specifically, took my brother’s livlihood away for a combined wage of 10 bucks an hour…2 less than he was making…and 2 men can paint much more in one day than one man can so for his ex boss….that is the icing on his builder’s cake. This is only one small, personal example of how muddied the waters can become in situations like this. It hits very close to home for me…I wish I had a solution but for now I have a legal yet not yet leagl spouse who runs free here and cost me bundles and a perfectly legal unemployed brother who costs me more. I say “tighten the borders” and “toss em out”…they (illegal immigrants) have affected ME, personally, far too negatively. I am a good , kind, caring, loving, compassionate person but I too have my limits and that said, is my opinion. Thank you for the opportunity to “vent” and speak publicly on this very personal topic…Blessings to all from here to there~~~~Laurie
BlondeyeLaurie wrote: I wish I had a solution but for now I have a legal yet not yet leagl spouse who runs free here and cost me bundles and a perfectly legal unemployed brother who costs me more. I say “tighten the borders” and “toss em out”…they (illegal immigrants) have affected ME, personally, far too negatively. I am a good , kind, caring, loving, compassionate person but I too have my limits and that said, is my opinion. Thank you for the opportunity to “vent” and speak publicly on this very personal topic…Blessings to all from here to there~~~~Laurie
All that you wrote was on target, but respecting space, I only quoted the last part.
Any emotions that other people would try to throw in on this topic….this is the bottom line, the one that you have expressed. The other emotional material is just a distraction, and a lame attempt at turning the question in another direction.
We can’t have free an open borders in this country, anymore than any other country can. I notice however, that advocates of open borders for this country, have not taken the next, logical step, and advocated for the absolute abolition of any kind of national borders all over the world….which means to say, that if the abolition of borders was really their cause, they would actually go so far as to advocate the absolute abolition of borders all over the world. But they haven’t. This tells me that they do not have purity of motive.
Lynne
Buffalowm wrote: How ironic the ones that are so against our Mexican (indigenous) brothers and sisters are truly the ones that are imigrants. Our lands were taken from us and now ” they” want to keep us from coming back….. We will never get back what belonged to us anyway if we keep going along with people ….who had no business here to began with..by trying to keep our Mexican people out of land that is their land too…This fight for our rights is for ALL Indians..not just who we (native included) pick and chose to consider indigenous people.
to me, if you think about it, mexican are takeing back what was theirs at one time! no one stops to think/look at it that way. plus they gonna take a little extra to back for what was stolen from them. they let others come here to become U.S. citizens, no problem, but to them. they dont want us to take back our land! which were slowly doing.:o
malisa wrote: to me, if you think about it, mexican are takeing back what was theirs at one time! no one stops to think/look at it that way. plus they gonna take a little extra to back for what was stolen from them. they let others come here to become U.S. citizens, no problem, but to them. they dont want us to take back our land! which were slowly doing.:o
There never were any mexicans in North Carolina or Virginia, until recently. They cannot be taking back “their” land, because it never was their land. If the land belongs to any indigenious people, then its my land and the land of my tribe. We aren’t Mexicans, never were mexicans. If Mexicans take the land, we still won’t be mexicans. We will then be living under the eyes of yet another invader, with yet another excuse to take land.
That’s pretty much it.
Lynne
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