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Dear Linda,
First thank you for your reply to my post. 🙂 My mother is a genealogist, & through all of her work for our family & other people’s families, finding the term Intermarriage is rare. As we both know, many cousins married long ago. So, if this was the reason for the term being used, we would see it more often, while doing research. Information left behind by those of the Eugenics’ Movement describes the term as meaning race not kinship. Also the Cherokee people kept records of Intermarriages between themselves & Europeans. So this term isn’t unknown to the Cherokee people in Oklahoma. I found a website that had information on the Cherokee’s & their Intermarriage records, but since I didn’t save the site as a favorite, I’m having trouble finding it again. 🙁 In the dictionary the word Intermarry refers to one of three things; Race, Religion, or kinship to the said persons marrying.
My mother has been a genealogist for a long time, she has spent countless hours in the Library of Virginia, & on many a road trip to the mountains to visit & obtain copies of original courthouse records. But she is unable to make a connection with cousins marrying & the use of “Intermarriage”. My great-great-great grandparents were indeed probably cousins, so we at first thought this was the reason. However after extensive research on her part & mine, we are of the conclusion that it is a European & Indian marriage term. We have kept an open mind, but with the passing of each year, the likelyhood of the term meaning anything else is highly unlikely. There is proof of it meaning a marriage between two people of American Indian ancestry & European ancestry, so far we have found nothing to disprove this.
Linda, I want to thank you for your kind words. 🙂 I don’t really want or need to be recognized by the government, as it isn’t important to me at all. What is important to me is, that I hand down to my daughter what I know about our ancestry. I personally don’t need to be a part of a recognized Tribe. The BIA is a joke. It’s just another way to try to control the American Indian population of the United States. They make it appear that the Indian population is limited to a few select Tribes. Due to families not staying in one place, many people are rejected. Imagine if we told all Italians that since their ancestors left Italy, they couldn’t be recognized in America as Italian! Silly I know, but it’s the same concept that is used by the BIA. Until people stand up & speak out against this, it will go on forever, until there are no American Indians left, if the BIA has anything to do with it!
Yes I know I got off track, sorry about that.
Sincerely,
Coheeslady
This is a very interesting topic. When I first set out to discover my roots, I had been told stories on Indian ancestry but could never document them. It wasn’t until recently when I came across my great-great grandfather’s petition to the Dawes Commission did I start to understand my family’s struggle to be recognized as Indian in a attempt to preserve their culture (Haliwa-Saponi). They had to frequently meet in secret to organize themselves. In the 1800’s large gatherings by Indians was illegal in NC. The whole point of my great-great grandfather in filing the Dawes petition was to claim an identity that could be argued or constantly disputed. The application was denied due to them still living in NC, and not being part of the Trail of Tears. There was never an issue of his ancestry, just that he was not part of the Trail of Tears, and was unable to contact what family members who were shipped to Oklahoma (his grandmother was “Full Blood” Cherokee, his grandfather Saponi, Tutelo, and Nansemond). I jsut started my research for answers of who I am, where did my family come from, and how were they able to maintain their freedom for over 270 years.
Hi Brenda,
I wish I could say that Haithcock, Jeffries, Guy, and Corn should be on that list. My work on Federal Acknowledgment would be SO much easier. (grin) Sadly, none of those are identified as Saponi names in any early records. I would add Alston/Austin to the list, and Bearskin, if you like (Ned Bearskin), and perhaps one or two others (I don’t have acess to my database atm). Jeffries is first identified as an Indian name in the records of the Brafferton School, when Will Jeffries was a student there 1736-1742. His tribal affiliation is not given, and his connection, if any, with the modern Occaneechi Jeffries family is unknown. Later records in the 1840’s in NC and Ohio identify individuals with the Jeffries surname as Indian, but do not specify a tribe. There are also individuals among the Ginkaskins in the 1810’s who have the Jeffries surname, but there is no discerable connection between them and the Occaneechi with that name. (See Roundtree’s book on the Eastern Shore Indians for more on this family and other Ginkaskin [and other] descendants; Collins, Francis, Revels etc.)
The earliest document I am aware of that identifies a Occaneechi Jeffries by Tribal affiliation is the 1881 History of Greene Co., Ohio by Dills. It states that Uriah Jeffries and his distant cousin Silas Jeffries were “descendants of the Catawba tribe of Indians”, which actually is not too far off the mark, at least linguisticaly speaking. ANother court case from Indiana has the Jeffries and the Turners coming from “an old Indian settlement” near the NC/Va border where Northampton meets Greensville.
I think it is a logical inferance that the Jeffries family is Saponi, but there is no document that specifically states this. (that I have come accross, but we’re still looking) The same could be said for the other names: Corn, Guy, and Haithcock. There is an interesting case in 1819 where some of the Haithcocks sue a neighbor for slander after he calls them mulattos, but no details are given regarding what they actually claimed to be. The Guys in Macon County are identified as Catawbas in letters to the US government as early as 1869. The Corns among the Occaneechi descend from one marriage of Robert B. Corn to a Jeffries woman in Greensville Co., Va in the 1790’s.
Dear Forest Hazel,
I was curious, where did you obtain the records from Fort Christianna and the Brafferton Institute?
Thank you Forest for answering my inquery. I think what is so confusing to most of us is that all these small tribes were more or less thrown together and a melting pot of bloodlines occured. Here is something I presented to the research group I am on.
Note how many names we have heard on the forum.
Because Indians were not designated by race in official vetran records. Here
is some known names:
Source:
Douglas LeTell Roghts,The American Indians of North Carolina,p.126
Frank Speck,”Catawba Kinship…” pp.570-571
The Catawba Indians of South Carolina, Feb.26,1930,p 4429
World War 1
Early Brown
Richard Harris
Robert Harris
Sky Eagle(named by newsmen)English name unknown but he graduated from Carlisle
World War 2
Landrum L.George
Alfred Harris
Garfield Harris
John Ayers
Hazel Ayers
Samuel Beck
Eugene Beck
Major Beck Jr.
Edward Brown
Toney Foxx
Maroni Taylor George
Hiram Quelly George
Floyd Raymond Harris
1928 Dr.Speck made a census of those living on the Reservation which showed
44 family groups with these names.
Blue Harris
Wheelock (onieda)
Ayers
Gordon
Saunders
Cantey
Wade (Indian but not Catawba)
Beck (part Cherokee)
Thatcher (white married to Catawba woman)
Among the wives of these men were women of the names :
Watts
Blankenship
Patterson
George
Price
Starns
Brown
Someone asked “What constitutes proof?”
Boy that’s a tough one. Maybe setting parameters would help, and defining evidence, et cetera.
Positive DNA results are poof, of ancestry while negative results are NOT proof of a lack of Indian ancestors.
But proof is very hard to obtain on any topic. You have to shoot for higher and higher probabilities, perhaps, I guess.
vance
Linda you asked if my family had the “Blackfoot” ID. I have to say “no”. But evidence is goin that way it seems, sorta. But I did know they were “Indian”, and mixed with Cherokee in Arkansas. On line I found people with the surname (Richey) who said their ancestors were called “Tuckahoe” — I was even sent an old newspaper article where a “Richey” described himself as a “Tuckahoe”. So I went searching that way a while, and knowin they came from Va to In to Ar to Ok, I sent searchin’ in Virginia, where I found your web site.
I went down several blind allies where people were deceptive, so I was cautious. When I heard the term “Blackfoot” I went to Richey (various spellings) genealogy boards and found that there were several with this surname who said their ancestors were “Blackfoot”, some said “Blackfoot and Cherokee”. Dad said his Richey ancestors were “Irish and Indian” only. They married the Brown’s who were Cherokee in Arkansas and he knew this.
When I mentioned John Richey married Mary Wood(s) nad mary’s mother’s maiden name was Dickson, I was told the Wood and Dickson surnames were Saponi, but I didn’t see them on your most recent list, altho I did on earlier lists.
From my rsearch, I “think” it is possible that my ancestors from this side of the family are Saponi, but unfortunately, I couldn’t prove it I don’t think. I can show evidence, the “Blackfoot Church” in Indiana, the place of origin of James Wood and John Richey in Va. But I just don’t know much more, unfortunately.
So dad never used the word “Blackfoot” but it was understood they (Richey’s, Waylands, Woods, Dicksons) were mixed Irish/Indian — that’s all I have to go on from oral tradition for these ancestors. Wish there were more. The Browns dad knew were Cherokee related to Sequoyah and Black Fox (I said related to, not descended from) and we cna just about prove this too, but not quite — lots of circumstantial stuff.
vance
Actually, that could be kind of handy, if you’re interested in helping me organize this data, since that makes you more unbiased, not having that ID in your own family.
You’re right, Dixon should be on that list, actually it is on the list I work with, as (found among people believed to be) Saponi. I guess we should call it the list of people believed to be Saponi-related. I like the list I’m working with because I keep hearing a lot of the names on it used by other people. It doesn’t just seem to be one person’s theories on it, but pretty conservative and accepted.
To Forest Hazel & Brenda,
Forest, I was wondering if you have any more information on the Turner family, as you listed them in your post as, “Coming from an Old Indian Settlement”, Va./N.C. border. My great grandmother is Lula Jane Turner, she married Edgar Houston Cash, around 1907. She was born in Nelson county, Virginia. My mother is unable to find their marriage certificate in Virginia. They were married, as Edgar’s Will attest to the fact. My grandmother Lula Jane Turner Cash’s parents were James Nelson Turner, of Campbell county, Va., & Emma Walker (Arthur) Bell, of Appomattox county, Virginia. James Nelson Turner & Emma were married Feb. 27, 1878. James Nelson Turner’s parents are: William Anderson Turner, of Appomattox, Va. & Jane E. Phelps, born in Campbell county, Virginia. We have the Turner’s genealogy back to 1758, however we lack the first names of the Turner men before William Anderson Turner. Also the wives seem to have no surnames, the further back we go in research. Thank you for any assitance that you can provide me. 🙂
Brenda, I noticed you mentioned two of my family names on the list, you posted. As the Ayers & Pattersons are a part of my ancestry. We have a Mary (Molly) Ayers born about 1756 in Buckingham county, Va., she married Charles Garrett, of Buckingham county, Virginia. Charles & Mary Garrett had a son named Issac Garrett Sr., he married Mary Agee. Issac & Mary had a son named Jacob Garrett, of Buckingham county, Va.. Jacob is another mystery as we have not proven the correct names of his wife/wives. Some people believe Jacob married Ann Clementine Going, other’s think it was a Clementine Fannie (no surname), &/ or Mildred Cherry, & possibly a lady with the last name of Monk. Any how, one of Jacob’s children was named Margaret Jane Garrett, born Sept. 1, 1849, in Buckingham county, Virginia. Margaret Jane Garrett married on Dec. 13, 1875 to William Thomas Cash, of Rockbridge county, Virginia. William Thomas Cash & Margaret Jane Garrett Cash’s son was Edgar Houston Cash (my great-grandfather) he was the husband to Lula Jane Turner. My grandmother Lula Jane Cash, was named after her mom. Guess what my middle name is!! 😉
Sincerely,
Coheeslady
Hi,
Regarding the Turner family.
I am most familiar with the one found in the Nortyhampton Co. NC area that became part of the “Portuguese Settlement” of Gaston Township. I’ll have to dig my stuffout, but it seems I could only trace them back to about 1800 with certainty, and most seemed to come from one Turner woman who had a number of out of wedlock children. I believe they are connected to the “Black Simon” Turner of the Greensville/Northampton border area, but that is only speculation at this point. They may have some connection with the Nottoway Turners of SOuthampton, but again, that is speculation.
The Turner family comes up in a 1866 Indiana trial which revolved around the aancestry of William Jeffries, son of Macklin Jeffries and Mary Turner Jeffries. Her father was said to have been a white man, her mother Indian and white. It is unclear from the testimony whether her father or mother passed along the Turner name.
Dollarson Turner went to court in Northampton Co. in the 1890’s (sorry, still don’t have my file here) to try and get his kids into the white school. He was not successful.
Dear Forest,
I just wanted to thank you for responding so quickly to my post on the Turner family. The Turner’s in my family, are not willing to speak about our ancestry. So, whatever they know will be kept a secret. We just have to dig on our own, which makes them a little uneasy. One time my mother was doing research on our family at a courthouse in the Va. mountains area, she told them she was looking up the Turner family. The lady just looked at her & said, “Why are you looking up the Turners, they are all Black?” My mother said, look I am of the Turner family & we are not Black! So, all of the research my mother has done, she swore that she wouldn’t share it with the Turners in our family, due to their attitude towards those of us that are of the Cash & Turner line.
Forest whatever information you find, that may help me out with our Turner line, I will be grateful. 🙂
Sincerely,
Coheeslady
Hi Crystal,
Yes, I have the court document regarding Dollarson and Nathaniel Turner from 1890. I was looking at it yesterday, and in fact, copied it for the NC Museum of History’s planned exibition on Civil Rights in NC. Now whether they ultimately use it or not is another story, but they did copy a fair amount of the stuff I had on the Portuguese Settlement.
Anytime you get ready, I’d love to make a trip up there to see the old graveyards. I just finished doing a small display for the tribes museum (still very much in it’s infancy) on the old graveyards of the Little Texas Settlement.
Came accross another Indian Jeffries document, this time from 1820. Concerns an affedavit given in that year by a friend of Thomas Jeffries, who was a Vet of the Revolutionary War. Seems he died at Valley Forge and was in a NC outfit. His friend says he died there, has no relatives “in this country” (which usuually means in the neighborhood), and that he was an Indian. I’d be a lot more excited if (a) he was identified by tribe, and (b) I had the foggiest clue as to who he was. C’est la vie…. (grin)
Forest; Any thoughts appreciated.
My mother was adopted so I have very little to acually go on. A couple of years ago I found a second cousin that I didn’t know exsisted. She sent me some of her research on our Perry line and I guess it was too much to digest all at once. I was looking over the notebook of deeds, wills, military records etc this morning when something caught my eye.
Perry/Allman Line
#1Thomas Perry Family Deed Record
Volume 36, Page 319
Washington County, Ohio; 1845
Thomas Perry’s Admr.
To
Ezekiel Canfield
Named as Respondents in this document Catherine Perry, James Perry, Polly CORNS, James Hunter, & Elizabeth his wife,William Huston, & Margaret his wife, Joseph Perry & Nancy his wife, William Nolan & sarah his wife, Andrew CORNS,George Hilderbrand& Sausn his wife, Margaret Perry, Thomas Perry Jr, Abigail Perry, Joseph Harris, Catherine Perry, James Perry, Mary Perry, and Rebecca Perry.
____________________
Vinton Co. Ohio Deed Book XV1 Page 594 1874
Deed of Nicholas Allman & sarah his wife in conderation of the sum of $2500.00 in hand to convey unto said Samuel J. JEFFERIES & John J. Casidy of the County of Meigs in State of Ohio.
____________________
I posted other information on the forum about this line and also a picture of grandma Mollie.
Click on search and type in “Mollie Perry”
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