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I agree, they may not have all been used as pendants of sorts, aswell I did post earlier that they nmay have been used as turkey beard roach spreaders, I cannot say for sure weather or not all of these round shell disacs were used the same way, there is one that has a holes drilled on the edge so that the image is side ways, odd but true.
at any rate, we can contemplate the artists intended use, but with out hard evidence we still cannot be 100% positive of what these shell discs were used for.
Many years ago when I first seen these objects I was not convinced that they were mearly ornaments, but at the same time I cannot say that they were all tools either, but Iam open to all theories.
There was once a small roach made from the beards of turkey’s, these are always round and worn at the back of the heard, they may have been spread like the long porcupine hair raoches that men attending pow wows do today!
In response to the debate over the artifact being or not being a gorget I’m posting this engraving based on a drawing by Le Moyne. It is of the Timucuan Indians of Florida. The three men in the foreground are wearing gorgets suspended by holes in the center.
“The three men in the foreground are wearing gorgets suspended by holes in the center.”
Well, maybe. Or Viking shields hung from the pommel, or copper sundials on their chests, or something. Anyway, not three inch diameter discs made of the flat part of a conch shell. And not covering their throats — which is what a gorget is nominally to protect.
Everybody is entitled to a personal opinion, but mine (of the Occaneechi shell artifact in question) is not affected by this fanciful picture (of something else).
I don’t know very much about the history of these kinds of things. It would be great to know since we are trying to find out more about our history/cluture/etc. Especially if some here are thinking of using it for some kind of symbol representing this group. But since we can talk about it until we are blue in the face and still not know. and probably not all agree, I’d hate to see a heated debate on this artifact. It’s just wonderful to be able to look at it anyway and appreciate that it belonged to a child who was probably very loved and cherished.
It obviously was something very precious – either to the child, the parents, or to their customs or religeous beliefs or it wouldn’t have been buried with him/her. Just MHO.
Gorgets originally were a piece of armor that protected the throat in European culture as well as probably other cultural war regalia/armor.
If I’m not mistaken the term “gorget” came into usage after the beginings of archeology and anthropolgy. I think the word was utilized for classification of burial objects such as large center pieces of necklaces or chest ornamentation/armor.
In the Southeast as well as the Northeast the gorget became mainly utilized as a status symbol, ranking badge, or passport. Indians often times could not travel in white populated areas or out side Native controled lands with out these passports. Note that the King of England sent the Pamunkey Queen a metal gorget. Metal gorgets were struck and passed out to various tribes as passports and as symbols of treatied peace or for trade ranking.
Could a gorget get used as a toy, a sacred tool, or just plain simple ornimentation? Yes to all the above.
As to meanings you may have to dig and research some of it out to get more precise information as trying to post in this format would involve a couple of days of sitting here typing it all out. In the end the basics of these designs have been posted here at this forum either in this thread or elsewhere on the board. You can also do a google on gorget, Native design, etc, etc.
The meaning of designs and motifs can and do change over time. As culture evolves so do meanings of the material culture.
Personal Opinion:
My opinion on this would be use what designs are meaningful and supported for you. Don’t be afraid of utilizing your culture. If you want a gorget center piece for a necklace, choker, or regalia go for it. If you want a gorget to use as a toy or sacred object, go for it. I often think we worry way to much what others will say or think. I think there was a posting some where on the board about using designs or objects that came from graves. Remember the Saponi had burial rights that other tribes came to them for. They were a mortuary people. They saw it all as a seamless cycle of life. I don’t think our ancestors would have had any problem at all with the usage of such things. In fact they probably would have utilized what they had especially since some of them carried their ancestors bones around with them.
On the other hand a Lakota or Southwest tribe would be horrified or put off by such things only because they have their on ways that are not ours. The distinction must be made clear here. The idea of using a motif or design comes from the need to have a physical representation of the character or general personality of the group involved. The gorget came from an Occaneechi site. The designs have been found on other Southeastern Siouan objects. The general meanings are known from literature and or oral traditions. I think this makes the case for utilizing the symbol for the Southeastern Siouan Descendants Association.
The issue of where the holes are placed is really neither here nor there. Some gorgets have holes on both ends. Some in the middle, and some may have holes all over the place. The issue is mute because the original intent can only be asked of the persons that buried the people and they themselves are long since gone. If a child picks up a large bead puts it on a string and swings it up and down then you may have the first hints at a yo-yo. If I pick up a plastic tube and swing it around I can get a pretty cool noise going that would be great for replacing a bull whirler. Is the plastic tube sacred or the persons intent in using it in ceremony. Is a large bead a toy or potentional yo-yo. Maybe, but origianlly it was a large bead. It is really all so much samantics. Native American “Gorgets” hung as low as the stomache and as high as the throat. “Gorgets” were worn one at a time or up to three or four at a time. “Gorgets” were worn as necklaces, attached to clothing, and worn in the hair. They may have even been used as toy or sacred object.
On Creek Carver, rock on, your artistic talent is awesome.
Thanks Collins 🙂 I didn’t know about the Saponi being mortuary kind of people. Yikes. Kind of gives me the creeps. LOL
And the other information was very interesting too.
Thank you for posting it.
I agree with Dovelady, at least in principle, that debates such as this don’t need to be heated. To quote myself (message #71 above), “I’m not on the warpath about this, and as art, it is just what Linda said in the first place — an excellent emblem for the Eastern Siouan Descendants Association.”
I also agree with most of what Collins has just said. I wouldn’t know about the Saponi being mortuary people; seems to me that would have been time and place specific, not the general business they were in. But the excavated Occaneechi Town may well have been such a time and place; that seems very likely, if not downright obvious. I disagree (really it’s more of a quibble) with one point: “The issue of where the holes are placed is really neither here nor there.”
For us, looking for something to function as a sort of Saponi Town badge, probably it’s of minor interest. But for the person who made it, about 300 years ago (and that’s assuming it wasn’t an heirloom at the time the child was buried), it was at least intentional, and maybe important. While it is true that someone wanting to hang a thing around his neck could put the holes (or one hole) most anywhere, it’s also true that someone wishing to spin a 3″ shell disc (for either magical or recreational purposes) would need to put two holes pretty much exactly where these two holes have been put: one on each side of the center, close in, but not too close.
By the way, a couple of months ago I exchanged emails about this artifact with Steve Davis, the UNC archaeologist with overall responsibility for the Siouan Project (including the Occaneechi Town dig and its web report). I sent him a link, and his are among the 3,300-plus hits on this thread. I don’t think he’d mind my quoting him: “I guess what really amazed me while reading through the forum is how much interest this artifact seems to have generated among crafts people!” And that is down to CreekCarver, Kathleen6, Tom, and maybe others — certainly, in the first place, to Linda Carter. The thread has a hundred messages, and a few thousand hits, and five stars, because it is about something many of us perceive as important. To me it’s a rare, tangible scrap of our collective, mostly lost heritage. We don’t all have to agree about its original use, its internal symbolism, or the metaphysical nature of bodily adornment, to be drawn to the emblem itself.
Hi Again Pappy,
As a child I played with these buttons on a string. There were four kids in our family and when all the cousins came over to play there were a lot of kids in one small house. Sometimes as many as 16 or more. So our parents had to find something to amuse us on a rainy day. We just called them ‘buzz buttons’ when I was growing up. Because to us, they sounded like buzzing bees when you really got them whirling! To make them go fast, I used to twirl them more than two times though. I’d twirl them several times to get them started and then alternately pull my hands apart and then let them go closer together to keep the twisting action on the button working indefinately.
I used to love making them go really fast and then letting them tighten up around my fingers (middle fingers only). I remember as a kid, I was always afraid that they’d tighten so much that they’d cut off the circulation to my fingers and my fingers would fall off. LOL. I do remember a few times that my fingers actually did turn purple and I had to run to Mama. LOL But we played with these for hours and hours and I also made them for my kids and grand kids.
Like everyone else, I have no idea what the gorget found on the child was used for. It could have been all of the things that have been discussed here in this thread, or it could have been none of them. Since a similar design was found on a spoon bowl, it could have even been a family or tribal symbol or, something we don’t even know about.
To me, the use of the child’s gorget is secondary compared to the meaning of the symbols. But that, too is lost to time. So we can only speculate again unless further evidence is found which would put some clarity on this object.
I often wish I could be a ‘time traveler’ and go back and see what our ancestors were really like. There is so much speculation when a people and their culture have been lost to time, or thrown aside, or discounted or ignored or down right sabataged. It’s too bad that our ancestors of all races didn’t realize the importance of preserving culture. Of course, for the white people, maybe they did and that is why they tried so hard to destroy anything and anyone that didn’t fit into their white culture.
In my opinion, it was both white and NA peoples who are to blame. Blame sounds like too harsh a word, but I can’t think of another right now. The white man for oppressing the NA’s and the NA’s because they were so secretive about their roots- even to their own children. And because of that a whole culture was lost.
Of course, I understand that it was often dangerous to pass the information along and that for generations the sacred rituals and rites were banned by the government under threat of heavy penality to those sharing or taking part in any kind of ritual. It must have been a very hard time to live in for our NA ancestors.
And that this circle of events brings us to today, and to us here, sharing our collective stories, oral traditions and research – trying to reconnect to the ancient past. Perhaps it is fitting that the symbol that has been adopted has a circle of ‘mountains’ with a whirlwind in the center because it seems that many of us have been in a kind of geneaolocigal whirlwind and have had to pass over many mountains and valleys just to get to where we are today. Finally, I am ok with this symbol. It is a fitting symbol of our search.
Hi Linda,
May I have permission to recreate this emblem in Skrimshaw and shell? This has been one of my hobbies that I learned from our brothers in Alaska. It’s fun! IT WOULD NOT BE MADE FOR PUBLIC SALE OF ANY TYPE!!!! I will only use Hemp and I assume the Beading is shell as well.
Being in Florida, If your Craftsman needs Shells, Tell him to contact me and I will send him a Big “ol” Box!!!
Joe “The Gecko”
It’s not my permission to give. We found the design in an archeological publication. There are no copyrights I can imagine exist, and I am not so presumptious as to dictate any usage based on any sort of community or tribal interests. Creek Carver is making a living with his shellwork. Personally, I think it’s wonderful if he can, and have been very glad to for his services. This design, to my knowledge, is not attributed to any tribe with treaty rights. We have to live with the lack of social recognition and historical record that entails, one advantage is that we at least avoid a lot of the entanglements of that other peculiar institution. Scrimshaw away to your heart’s content, and do what you wish with it.
I’d like to remind all concerned that at some point in the future, the ESDA (see message #33) hopes to incorporate in some state (most likely NC, I’d think), as a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit corporation; and at some point after that, ESDA may wish for this design to be its trade mark, and may therefore have to register it as such with the U.S. Patent Office. When or if that happens, I think there is plenty of evidence in this thread showing that it was conceived as such, “our emblem,” from 08/01/05, before either Creek Carver or Gecko recreated it in shell (or Kathleen6 did a ceramic version, if that has happened). And its details were more or less agreed upon, as of post #25.
I agree that neither Linda nor the rest of us have a proprietary claim on the design, but at some point ESDA may wish to make such a claim. It’s not like licensing NFL team logos; we aren’t going to make piles of money off this, but we might want to preempt its adoption as somebody else’s logo.
I think some tee shirts were sold at a pow-wow in Clarksville, if by any chance they had this design, that might also be a factor.
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