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I believed and still do that ndns are the one “race” of people who treated their own……no matter the tribal affiliation…..to actually show human kindness one to another!QUOTE]
As idealistic as that sounds, it just isn’t so. The fighting amongst the different Indian nations was one reason the white people were able to take over. If they could have put their differences aside they could have united and stopped the invasion before it began, or at least they could have slowed it down a bit.
Putting that aside, Indian tribes fought each other, took slaves and basically committed atrocities just like any other race. For the most part, they were a warring people. Almost every account of early Indian history mentions them fighting amongst themselves.
1 Optimistic,
“… are some “full blooded” First People/Native Americans/Indians saying that “mixed bloods” are a different species?”
No. Obviously, all human beings belong to the same species.
“How can anyone compare a camel to a “mixed blood?”
I’m not comparing a mixed blood person with a camel. I was using a metaphor to illustrate how some (probably most) federally recognized Indians feel about us/you/me.
“I could see if your example was comparing Arab’s from different clans/tribes.”
Huh? Do you mean, for example; Once you let the nose of a Hashemite Arab into a Saudi’s Arab’s tent, it won’t be long until the all the Hashemites crowd the Saudi Arab right out of his own tent. Hmmm. I suppose it could work but it’s not nearly so visually arresting as the camel metaphor. Besides, someone would surely accuse me of stereotyping the facial features of semitic people (i.e.- Hashemite noses).
“To me, your example is like comparing fruit to chicken.”
OK
“There’s no comparison.”
I know there’s no comparison. It’s not a comparison. It’s a metaphor. (Or should I say, it’s a MIXED metaphor. Hahaha. 🙂 Oh, am I a bundle of laughs or what!)
“Do you understand my point regarding your example?”
Not really. You read way too much into it. It’s just a metaphor. (Maybe I should have used the “Slippery Slope” metaphor.)
Coharie Roy,
Your posts here today quote many historical references. However, on this site we require “proof “. Where are the footnotes that could lead me to find these “historical occurrances”?
Why must you use metaphore? Why not straight forward facts and language, here and now, English? Why bring Arabs into a discussion on America Indian Heritage?…I request a straight forward answer without “metaphor”.
Since the subject of Arabs has come up I find it interesting. I like to know what I am buying and what motivates a plerson’s business. If you go to the West Wind’s site given on this thread as a link and click on about me or us and read the entire article posted there the authur of the shirts every one is so quick to buy seems to think the Arabs flying airplanes into the twin towers is just “whites killing whites.” It appears He has shirts about that also. My interpretation of His article and the Spirit of this forum up until now does not see the two agreeing. I don’t even know how we got onto this particular thread. I am offended by any statement that boast or brags off anyone killing anyone!!!!!!!I have been admonished because I simply stated an event that actually occured and accused of making a joke about it. I meant it as no joke and told it with no disrespect but I nevertheless apologized if it caused any offence. I have heard no such apology to anyone who has expressed concern and offense concerning the spirit expressed in some of these pieces of apparel. Wisdom demands predence and the end never justifies the means. In the spirit of Peace . ED
1_optimistic wrote: Can anyone out there explain to me why some “full blooded” First Peoples/Native Americans/Indians have a problem with “mixed blooded” Native Americans? Does anyone out there have a legitimate reason why, excluding just being prejudiced?
People like that make it hard for people like me who try to “connect” with our “other” bloodlines.
Once again……..Divide and Conquer.:(
1_optimistic,
I don’t know that this is legitimate, but I asked that exact question of a Native American Literature Professor while in her class. Her answer was:
(Paraphrased)
The Mixed bloods were often involved in conducting the fur trade between the Indians and colonists and as such were seen as contributing to the demise of the Indian Culture. The Indians that went to the reservations, suffered much and are the ones who held on to the traditional cultural beliefs and feel the mixed bloods on the other hand “sold-out” the culture. [I don’t know what necessarily qualifies her as an authority on this question…. but that was her answer.]
I saw her idea on this site in the term, “Tributary Indian”. I think, that we were aligned from the start with the colonists, acting as middleman in the trade, and the tribes that chose to not interact were our enemies even before the coming of the Europeans. Based on that you could say our plight today is “Inter-Tribal Rivalry” which is very alive among all the Siouan Tribes today. I almost thought it legitimizes us as a group that we are opposed in this way. If this were true, we could just be experiencing an age-old tribal rivalry and only need to legitimize ourselves and answer to only ourselves. Actually another answer is we are not racially “pure”. Of course most of them are not either and that makes them all the more “on the spot” in our presence.
I’m not sure prejudice is the exact word…but wanting to maintain their original racial purity probably is. Like maybe they don’t mind us as fellow human beings but just can’t identify with us as being like them????
I think I read somewhere on this site that there should be a designation for Mestee, Mixed Blood people.
As I see these two factions; here we stand …each has lost a significant part of ourselves. I think the rest of the story is yet to be written.
Actually, I don’t think it is or ever was so much of a “formal” matter where one group decided to intermingle or not. Now as then it happens individual to individual. I think each bridge between cultures is built at individual interactions. Keep moving forward and you’ll connect in a satisfying way with someone.
By the way, what does a Tuscararo have to do with a Saponi? :confused:
Wachinika,
My lack of attribution is duly noted. You may check the below to see my source.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NCTuscarora
Message # 601 posted by “lookat500” on July 27, 2005 at 11:49 p.m.
Why metaphor? Because metaphor often contains more truth than “the cold hard facts.” Additionally, Indians have always been noted for their eloquent oratory and their use of tropes and figures. For example:
“There were no temples or shrines among us save those of
nature. Being a natural man, the Indian was intensely poetical.
He would deem it sacrilege to build a house for Him who may be met
face to face in the mysterious, shadowy aisles of the primeval
forest, or on the sunlit bosom of virgin prairies, upon dizzy
spires and pinnacles of naked rock, and yonder in the jeweled vault
of the night sky! He who enrobes Himself in filmy veils of cloud,
there on the rim of the visible world where our
Great-Grandfather Sun kindles his evening camp-fire, He who rides
upon the rigorous wind of the north, or breathes forth His spirit
upon aromatic southern airs, whose war-canoe is launched upon
majestic rivers and inland seas–He needs no lesser cathedral!”
From “THE SOUL OF THE INDIAN” by Charles Alexander Eastman.
and this:
“Tell General Howard I know his heart. What he told me before, I have it in my heart. I am tired of fighting. Our chiefs are killed; Looking Glass is dead, Too-hul-hul-sote is dead. The old men are all dead. It is the young men who say yes or no. He who led on the young men is dead. It is cold, and we have no blankets; the little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills, and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are—perhaps freezing to death. I want to have time to look for my children, and see how many of them I can find. Maybe I shall find them among the dead. Hear me, my chiefs! I am tired; my heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.”
Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce, October 5, 1877.
Coharie Roy wrote: Wachinika,
My lack of attribution is duly noted. You may check the below to see my source.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NCTuscarora
Message # 601 posted by “lookat500” on July 27, 2005 at 11:49 p.m.
Why metaphor? Because metaphor often contains more truth than “the cold hard facts.” Additionally, Indians have always been noted for their eloquent oratory and their use of tropes and figures. For example:
“There were no temples or shrines among us save those of
nature. Being a natural man, the Indian was intensely poetical.
He would deem it sacrilege to build a house for Him who may be met
face to face in the mysterious, shadowy aisles of the primeval
forest, or on the sunlit bosom of virgin prairies, upon dizzy
spires and pinnacles of naked rock, and yonder in the jeweled vault
of the night sky! He who enrobes Himself in filmy veils of cloud,
there on the rim of the visible world where our
Great-Grandfather Sun kindles his evening camp-fire, He who rides
upon the rigorous wind of the north, or breathes forth His spirit
upon aromatic southern airs, whose war-canoe is launched upon
majestic rivers and inland seas–He needs no lesser cathedral!”
From “THE SOUL OF THE INDIAN” by Charles Alexander Eastman.
and this:
“Tell General Howard I know his heart. What he told me before, I have it in my heart. I am tired of fighting. Our chiefs are killed; Looking Glass is dead, Too-hul-hul-sote is dead. The old men are all dead. It is the young men who say yes or no. He who led on the young men is dead. It is cold, and we have no blankets; the little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills, and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are—perhaps freezing to death. I want to have time to look for my children, and see how many of them I can find. Maybe I shall find them among the dead. Hear me, my chiefs! I am tired; my heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.”
Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce, October 5, 1877.
Coharie Roy,
I have read Charles Eastman’s works and really enjoyed them. Chief Joseph was one of the most eloquent speakers and a user of metaphor. Metaphor is used to communicate an idea by using objects/situations/circumstances familiar to the listener/reader. The use of metaphor was commonplace with Natives as they related all things to nature. I am posting a quote or two by Chief Joseph that impacted me. I will also list the source to share other quotes and history, blessings.:)
Quotes from Chief Joseph
——————————————————————————–
The earth is our mother. She should not be disturbed by hoe or plough. We want only to subsist on what she freely gives us. Our fathers gave us many laws, which they had learned from their fathers. These laws were good. I have carried a heavy load on my back ever since I was a boy. I realized then that we could not hold our own with the white men. We were like deer. They were like grizzly bears. We had small country. Their country was large. We were contented to let things remain as the Great Spirit Chief made them. They were not, and would change the rivers and mountains if they did not suit them.
Too many misinterpretations have been made… too many misunderstandings…
Hi Caharie Roy,
…Just visited that Yahoo Link and I couldn’t find the option for post 601 available.
What do you think and feel about the decision they made to exclude the people?
I had never heard of Charles Alexander Eastman before… did a quick Google and got a brief rundown. I have read books by others educated in American normal schools then returning to south South Dakota. I’ll try to find his writings. Hope there’s something on Wounded knee since it said he was an attending physician to the surviving victims.
My limited knowledge of Indian thought and culture expressed through language comes from study of the Siouan languages Omaha and some Lakota. These were language “straight forward” language classes and we didn’t assign English Literary terminology to what we studied…just used the language and read their stories in their own words. Then I ‘ve had the opportunity of hearing both spoke by elders at public functions and they usually translated after. I know some differences in expression and thought but can’t find the nuances I’ve been made aware of in this quote. It seems a product of his Euro-American college education to me, which itself speaks to the greatness of the Indian mind to adapt to and florish in all environments.
The Chief Joseph quote is to me straight forward and very easy to understand and relate to.
Thank you for sharing this.
dovelady wrote:
I believed and still do that ndns are the one “race” of people who treated their own……no matter the tribal affiliation…..to actually show human kindness one to another!QUOTE]
As idealistic as that sounds, it just isn’t so. The fighting amongst the different Indian nations was one reason the white people were able to take over. If they could have put their differences aside they could have united and stopped the invasion before it began, or at least they could have slowed it down a bit.
Putting that aside, Indian tribes fought each other, took slaves and basically committed atrocities just like any other race. For the most part, they were a warring people. Almost every account of early Indian history mentions them fighting amongst themselves.
How accurate can history written by one culture discribing a foreign culture actually be? I hope my beliefs are not judged by the wars fought during my lifetime. One thing we can compare is how living breathing people of Indian nations relate to one another and compare that to modern American cultural values. Maybe we can even do a bit of choosing the direction of our personal path and attempt to influence our nation’s future for the better.
Wachinika wrote: Hi Caharie Roy,
…Just visited that Yahoo Link and I couldn’t find the option for post 601 available.
What do you think and feel about the decision they made to exclude the people?
I had never heard of Charles Alexander Eastman before… did a quick Google and got a brief rundown. I have read books by others educated in American normal schools then returning to south South Dakota. I’ll try to find his writings. Hope there’s something on Wounded knee since it said he was an attending physician to the surviving victims.
My limited knowledge of Indian thought and culture expressed through language comes from study of the Siouan languages Omaha and some Lakota. These were language “straight forward language classes and we didn’t assign English Literary terminology to what we studied…just used the language and read their stories in their own words. Then I ‘ve had the opportunity of hearing both spoke by elders at public functions and they usually translated after. I know some differences in expression and thought but can’t find the nuances I’ve been made aware of in this quote. It seems a product of his Euro-American college education to me, which itself speaks to the greatness of the Indian mind to adapt to and florish in all environments.
The Chief Joseph quote is to me straight forward and very easy to understand and relate to.
Thank you for sharing this.
Hi Wachinika,
Here are the books by Charles Eastman: The Soul of the Indian (1911); he also has 2 autobiographical works, Indian Boyhood (1902), and From the Deep Woods to Civilization (1916). Eastman has also co-wrote 9 other books with his wife Elaine Goodale Eastman.
Blessings,
Shirley
Wachinika, welcome to the world of the wan-na-knows and not the
wanabees. Your post #35 tells me you have arrived and welcome to the camp and tribe seeking our true heritage whereever that path may lead us. I will never be ashamed and I believe everyon one this forum would stand by that statement. Some of us will never Know with authority and if we did and held in our hands the absolute proof there would be those who would reject us. So be it ! We all belong to the Human race and again there are those who would even deny us this but God / Creator has determined otherwise. So tough luck no Providence because it has been determined So and there is nothing anyone can do about it. May we all seek the Path of Peace not only for our own good but for the good of any future we shall be blessed with. ED
“May we all seek the Path of Peace not only for our own good but for the good of any future we shall be blessed with. ED”
Now there’s something to contemplate…being future oriented as a group as well as seeking history.
If we build on the foudation we discover among the ruins, how will our posterity veiw us as a people? What will they say about our accomplishments; our wars?
The Indians that went to the reservations, suffered much and are the ones who held on to the traditional cultural beliefs and feel the mixed bloods on the other hand “sold-out” the culture.
Thanks for sharing your opinion Wachinika.
Thank you too Coharie Roy.
I just thought of Radmilla Cody (46th Miss Navajo Nation from 1997-98) and how she was raised in the Navajo “culture” but she still was given a hard time by some tribal members because of her “blended” ancestry. Sad 🙁
Good Morning Ed,
As I graciously accepted your apology Monday evening in a private message, I also do so here.
From here where I live this morning I am thinking of you there where you live and hoping you and Rachel are blessed with the perfect spring weather we are having here…Dianne 🙂
“The Indians that went to the reservations, suffered much and are the ones who held on to the traditional cultural beliefs and feel the mixed bloods on the other hand “sold-out” the culture.”
Hi 1_optimistic, 🙂 That is not my opinion. That is the paraphased answer I was given. We, here, know the history shows it to be much more complex than that. I told her then and live by it now…”Well then maybe mixed people can help to restore it.” In social and political issues it adds momentum when we speak to politicians and elected officials letting them know that many Americans are expecting them to honor the requests of our Indian leaders. We need to know there are unique and differing aspects of those raised culturally Indian and respect they have and are protecting their ways. It has been my experience that Indian leaders welcome support for the causes they work on for their people.
Shirley, 🙂 Thank you for the titles. I need to learn more of the Santee.
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