[Bill Childs]

Socrates Holbrook Cole

b. 11 Jan 1900 Vanceburg, Lewis Co., Ky (WW1 Registration and Oh.Indexes)

d. 23 Dec 1964 Portsmouth, Scioto Co., Oh (Ohio Death Index)

1930 Scioto Co., Oh Census lists wife as Alta C., age 48, b.Ky.

Her father born Irish Free State, mother b. Ky.

WW1 Draft Registration Card (dated 12 September, 1918; Scioto Co., Oh)

Socrates Holbrook Cole

age 18

Permanent Home address: Vanceburg, Lewis Co., Ky.

DOB: Jan. 11, 1900

White

U.S. Citizen

Laborer, Steel Plant, Portsmouth, Scioto, Ohio

Nearest Relative: George B. Cole, Vanceburg, Lewis, Ky.

signature: Socrates Cole

Physical Description:

Tall, Slender, Brown eyes, Brown hair.

No infirmities.

1910 Lewis Co., Ky Census; ED111 Vanceburg; 11 April; Sheet 5B; Household 85:

COLE, George; Laborer-odd jobs; m, W, 30, Widower; Ky, Ky, Ky.

……, Lizzie; Aunt; f, W, 61, Widow; no children; Ky, Ky, Ky.

……, Socrates; son, m, W, 10; Ky, Ky, Ky.

Not found on 1900 census.

[SouthPaw]

Thanks Bill! If memory serves, Soc Cole lived in Portsmouth, Scioto County, Ohio in the 1930’s or 40’s on Front Street. A story was told to me by my great Aunt Bessie Hobbs Fry that her family was walking along Front Street near where the flood wall is now and that her dad asked if a mail box had the name Socrates Cole on it. Her mother said yes and he told them that was his cousin and went straight to the door and knocked. That means I may be mistaken about he being related through the Bevans line. Arthur Hobbs was Aunt Bessie’s father and Mary Susie Bevans was her mother. Going by this story, Soc Coles mother was possibly an Aunt to Arthur.

Thanks again Bill, for all the information.

I also answered your question concerning the man Nancy Gibson married in Letcher County, KY in 1842 on the previous page. He was Samuel Sadler and the only census I have been able to find him on is 1850 Lawrence County, KY. His name appears on a couple marriage licenses or bonds of at least two of his sons. I have been able to determine Nancy Gibson Sadler was married to a Stewart after Samuel, but have no idea where or in what year.

Aubrey, thanks for replying. You never know when you’re going to run into a cousin. Blondeyelaurie, if you have time to look for Socrates Cole in your records, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks everybody.

Joyce

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Hello Joyce…sorry for the delay in replying…busy busy here…I do not have a Socrates Cole in my tree at all…it appears he may well be from another Cole branch than those that connect to my maternal lines. The only 3 Bevins (spelled that way) that I have all 3 MD into my Scott line…all 3 having settled in Pike Co, KY with their respective families.

Wanted to also mention that the Thomas Gibson you made mention of earlier also appears to be from another Gibson line than my Gibson/Gipson’s…I located who I think was he in Liberty Twp, Highland Co, OH in 1850 thru 1880 and he shows as being born on all of those census records in Ireland between say 1797-1799…2 of his children: James and Thomas Jr. were born in VA…as well may have your Nancy nee Gibson , however she is not listed in the 1850 census …having purportedly already MD…the remaining CH show as born in OH: HA.(male), S E. (female), William & Jane A. Thomas shows with a wife Elizabeth on the 1850, 1860 and 1870 census readings and WD at age 82 in 1880. I was unable to locate any information of a wife by the name of Jennie nee Lucas…neither in censuses nor marriages. Thomas was a farmer and a relatively wealthy one for the time…owning upwards of $2500 in real estate and $310 in personal property. He did have a few “boarders” at times, namely: Lewis Stover (15 in 1870), David Ginelhoner (13 in 1860) and Alvin Horn (son in law, spouse of dau Jane, 39 in 1880…also born in Ireland.) Wish I could be more helpful on this line…will let you know if I bump into anything else in my searchings. Also…I’ll post another thread later on your Samuel Gibson line with his wife Elizabeth nee Baird…if they resided in the Carmel settlement area…I can almost guarantee they DO connect to my Gibson line/s. Have a great day. Blessings to you~~~Laurie

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Hello again Joyce…well, it doesn’t look as though your Samuel Gibson was a part of my Gibson line either *sighs* but I did find a bit on him from my notes, 1 book and some online recources to wit:

“Source: located Mar 2006 from The Gene Pool: JTR’s Colorful Family History (@ Highland Co, OH history, how/if does this Samuel Gibson relate?…to wit:

“FOLKLORE OF HIGHLAND CO., OHIO

THE SEVEN CAVES • FAIRFIELD TWP.

WAW-WIL-A-WAY • THE MOUND BUILDERS

by Violet Morgan, Greenfield, Ohio, 1946

I’d love to compare notes with you on this family!

E-mail me joannerabun@comcast.net

Thomas Beals and Nathaniel Pope, on their expedition to Ohio about 1795, crossed the northern part of Highland county, where they were to return later and settle permanently. This land was called the Virginia Military District and was portioned to Revolutionary War soldiers as the Government’s method of paying them for their services in the war. Many of the soldiers did not want their lands and sold them to prospective settlers for about a dollar an acre. Simon Kenton, who may deserve the name of Ohio’s Daniel Boone, made the first entry of land in Highland County, three miles east of Hillsboro, near Rocky Fork, September 7, 1791. This entry was for 500 acres and was made on four military warrants in the name of Samuel Gibson.**********”

Note: this Samuel Gibson shows as b: 1761 Cumberland Co, PA and d: 1836 Highland Co, OH…he was on a Rev War pension roll of Highland Co, OH for 3 years…for service as a spy and private in the VA militia…he MD Elizabeth nee Baird and had one dau: Mary who MD John Boyd. My copy of the Morgan book shows it transcribed as precisely stated. I could not at a glance note any further references to this man’s heritage and/or family.

I did locate an online transcribed copy of his pension file, to wit:

“Pension application of Samuel Gibson W9450Transcribed by Will Graves[some punctuation added for clarity]State of Ohio, Highland CountyOn this 9thday of April 1833 personally appeared in open Court before the Judges of the Courtof Common Pleas for said County now sitting Samuel Gibson a resident of the said the County ofHighland and State of Ohio aged Seventy one years who being first duly sworn according to law dothon his oath make the following declaration in order to obtain the benefit of the Act of Congress passedJune 7th, 1832.That he entered the service of the United States under the following named officers and servedas herein stated – I volunteered as an Indian Spy– in the last of October 1777 in Washington County inthe State of Virginia – under the command of Captain John Kincade [sic, Kincaid?] and marched underhis command to Richland Station on Clinch River – in the said the County of Washington – I continuedto serve under this engagement as an Indian Spy – (as a private) for the term of eighteen months– weranged from the Station to the Ohio River on the waters of big Sandy during this tour – I understoodthat the destination of the troops at the Station was under the direction of Colonel Arthur Campbell ofthe said County of Washington. I was relieved from service by a new recruit of Spies in April 1779 –when I left the service and returned to my Father’s house on Holston River in the said County ofWashington.In September 1780 I volunteered as a private under the command of Captain William Neel inthe said County of Washington – and marched under the command of Colonel William Campbell toWatauga River in North Carolina – where we were joined by the Regiments commanded by ColonelIsaac Shelby & ____ [blank in original] Sevier where Colonel William Campbell took the command ofall the troops – we marched from there through North Carolina across the Yellow Mountain andthrough Augusta in Georgia into South Carolina – where we crossed Broad River at the Cherokee Ford– and from thence to King’s Mountain where on the 8th [sic, 7th] of October 1780 I was in the battlecalled King’s Mountain. The day after the battle I assisted in burying the dead and carrying off thewounded – and on the evening of the same day we took up our line of March with the prisoners forGuilford Court house in North Carolina – After the prisoners were delivered at Guilford Court house –I was then discharged. How was in service under this engagement six weeks as a volunteer as beforestated – In the spring of 1781, I was drafted in said Washington County for a six months tour as aprivate in the militia; marched against the Cherokees and Chickasaw Indians – in the South – I marchedunder the command of Captain Aaron Lewis as a private – our company was attached to the commandof Colonel ___ [blank in original] Hubbard. I continued in service until after the treaty of peace withthe Indians that was held with them on the Tennessee River which I think was in September 1781. Iwas then discharged – I served under this engagement 4 months as a private – I then returned home toWashington County in Virginia – I served in the whole during the war of the revolution two years and4 weeks as above stated – I never received any written discharge for any of my services – mydischarges from my officers were all verbal – I have no documentary evidence to show my service –and I know of no person whose testimony I can procure who can testify to my service – I herebyrelinquish any claim whatever to a pension or annuity except the present and declare that my name isnot on the pension Roll of the Agency of any State.Sworn to and subscribed the day and year aforesaid.S/ Samuel GibsonAttest: S/ Samuel Bell, Clk…Interrogatories propounded by the Court to the applicant:First – where and in what year were you born

——————————————————————————–

Page 2

Answer – I was born in Cumberland County in the State of Pennsylvania on the 15thday of OctoberA.D. 17612nd– Have you any record of your age if so where is itAnswer – I had a record of my age in a Bible that once belonged to my Father but it is now lost3rd– where were you living when called into service – where have you lived since the revolutionAnswer –I was living in Washington County in the State of Virginia when I was called into service –after the revolution I first lived in Washington County in the State of Virginia and continued to livethere until the year 1790 – I then moved to Bourbon County in the State of Kentucky – where Icontinued to live until the year 1804 – when I removed to Highland County in the State of Ohio where Ihave continued to live ever since4th– How war you called into service were you drafted did you volunteer or were you a Substitute andif a Substitute for whomAnswer – I first volunteered as an Indian Spy and never was a substitute for any person5th– state the names of some of the regular officers who were with the troops where you served – suchContinental and militia regiments as you can recollect – and the general circumstances of your serviceAnswer – Colonel Arthur Campbell commanded the Indian Spies when I served the first 18 months –Colonel William Campbell, Colonel Isaac Shelby and Colonel Sevier commanded at the battle ofKing’s Mountain — when I was drafted against the Indians Captain Aaron Lewis & Colonel Hubbardcommanded. The further circumstances of my service is detailed in my declaration which is herereferred to.6th– Did you ever received a discharge from the service if so by whom was it given and what hasbecome of itAnswer – I never received any written discharge – I was verbally discharged first by Captain JamesFowler of the Indiana Spies – I was discharged verbally by Colonel William Vanpett [?] after the battleof King’s Mountain7th– Statement names of persons to whom you are known in your present neighborhood – who cantestify as to your character for veracity and their belief of your services as a soldier of the revolutionAnswer – I am known to Benjamin Campbell a minister of the Gospel and Edward Byram [?] both ofmy neighborhood who can testify as to my character for veracity and their belief of my services as aSoldier of the revolution.Sworn to and subscribed the day and year aforesaid. S/ Saml. GibsonAttest: S/ Samuel Bell, Clk”

“Interrogatories propounded by the Court to the applicant:First – where and in what year were you born

————————————————————————-

SEE 2nd post for addtnl info from pension………..Laurie

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Part 2 of 2…Samuel Gibson pension info contd:

“Page 2

Answer – I was born in Cumberland County in the State of Pennsylvania on the 15thday of OctoberA.D. 17612nd– Have you any record of your age if so where is itAnswer – I had a record of my age in a Bible that once belonged to my Father but it is now lost3rd– where were you living when called into service – where have you lived since the revolutionAnswer –I was living in Washington County in the State of Virginia when I was called into service –after the revolution I first lived in Washington County in the State of Virginia and continued to livethere until the year 1790 – I then moved to Bourbon County in the State of Kentucky – where Icontinued to live until the year 1804 – when I removed to Highland County in the State of Ohio where Ihave continued to live ever since4th– How war you called into service were you drafted did you volunteer or were you a Substitute andif a Substitute for whomAnswer – I first volunteered as an Indian Spy and never was a substitute for any person5th– state the names of some of the regular officers who were with the troops where you served – suchContinental and militia regiments as you can recollect – and the general circumstances of your serviceAnswer – Colonel Arthur Campbell commanded the Indian Spies when I served the first 18 months –Colonel William Campbell, Colonel Isaac Shelby and Colonel Sevier commanded at the battle ofKing’s Mountain — when I was drafted against the Indians Captain Aaron Lewis & Colonel Hubbardcommanded. The further circumstances of my service is detailed in my declaration which is herereferred to.6th– Did you ever received a discharge from the service if so by whom was it given and what hasbecome of itAnswer – I never received any written discharge – I was verbally discharged first by Captain JamesFowler of the Indiana Spies – I was discharged verbally by Colonel William Vanpett [?] after the battleof King’s Mountain7th– Statement names of persons to whom you are known in your present neighborhood – who cantestify as to your character for veracity and their belief of your services as a soldier of the revolutionAnswer – I am known to Benjamin Campbell a minister of the Gospel and Edward Byram [?] both ofmy neighborhood who can testify as to my character for veracity and their belief of my services as aSoldier of the revolution.Sworn to and subscribed the day and year aforesaid. S/ Saml. GibsonAttest: S/ Samuel Bell, Clk”

========================================================

Hope this helps you in your search…best of luck to you~~~Laurie

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Joyce…sorry…my initial post said it was too lengthy so I reposted soem redundant info…also wanted to add a link for you that appears to be your Samuel’s line…descending from what appears to be an Irish family patriarch named John Gibson…anywho…the URL/link is located at:

http://www.irishgenealogy.com/gibson.htm

Blessings~~~Laurie

[SouthPaw]

Laurie, what a great amount of information. I do have notes here somewhere that says Samuel Gibson did not actually receive his land grant due to some sort of misunderstanding. He didn’t sign or file something and it was forever lost to either Simon Kenton or others. I also have something here from ELizabeth Baird who was probably trying to get his pension. She lived with Mary Boyd in Lewis County, KY at the time. My notes also indicated he met Ms. Baird while guiding families down the Ohio from Pittsburg or Wheeling WV area.

I’m still actually trying to connect this Samuel to Thomas, father of Nancy. Do you know if the name Jennie was a nickname for another name? Other than say modern day Jennifer, was it ever used in the same manner as say Mary and Polly or Mollie?

Thanks so much for all the information and time you spent putting this together. I completely understand the * busy * busy * since I have two grandson here with me who do not seem to share my interest in genealogy yet. (Great big YET!)

It seems I have some Pope information here, as well, if that interests you.

Thanks for the link, I’ll go check it out. Email me anytime you want at sparks@sciotowireless.net

Joyce

[cthorpeky]

Brison Gibson was my G-G-G-Grandfather. He was married to Fannie Greene. Their Daughter AVa/AVY was married to Charles Gibson. Avy and Charles were cousins. Brison was probably Saponi Indian.

Cleland L Thorpe

(“M” and “Mu” for ‘Mulatto’ had a different usage in earlier times than it does now, and was often used to define dark complexioned ‘white’ people and Indians.

1850 Floyd Co., Ky Census; 12 August, p.434A, at 325, 325:

Brison GIBSON, 65, m, Mu, (no occupation), $0, Va.

Francis, 60, f, Mu, Va. (Francis “Fanny” GREEN).

Kesiah, 16, f, Mu, Va. (Kizziah)

Hezekiah, 14, m, Mu, Va. (“Kiah”)

Dicy, 12, f, Mu, Va.

Jefferson, 10, m, Mu, Va.

Ira, 25, m, Mu, Va.

Francis, 19, f, Mu, Va.

Squire, 23, m, Mu, Va.

Mary, 20, f, Mu, Va.

Bryson/Brison was b.abt. 1782 in Washington Co., Va and d. 1867 in Morgan Co., Ky, per several researchers. Don’t know what their sources are but the b.1782 corresponds well with his census age on the above 1850 census.

The Francis, age 19, is probably Ira’s wife but could be Squire’s wife Francis Nickles/Nicholas – would need to follow Ira out some to see if I can determine this.

Mary, age 20, may be Squire’s wife – don’t know.

Squire did marry a Francis Nicholas (Nickles?) on 29 June 1843 in Floyd Co., Ky and possibly Nancy Harrison (Harman??) later.

Brison/Bryson Gibson supposedly married Francis Green about 1820 in Claiborne Co., Tenn and Bryson Gibson is listed on the 1833 Claiborne Co., Tenn Tax Lists.

I used ‘supposedly’ only because I haven’t ran across any documentation on this marriage, which doesn’t mean it didn’t take place. Typically, pastors/ministers married people and many didn’t “return” the marriage paperwork to the county courthouses to register it with the “authorities”. More prevalent in those days was the belief that the State had nothing to say about something “consecrated by God” and ministers just didn’t bother to send in the paperwork. Also, ‘common law marriages’ were common out in the back country.

Some researchers add Alex, Betty and Ava as children of Bryson and Francis – could be.

I suspect Bryson may have been married before he married Francis Green, but only because he would have been about 35-38 yrs old in 1820.

More later if I can develope this further.

Bill[/QUOTE]

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Howdy Cleland…Bryson Gibson is also my direct maternal line…he was my 4th great grandfather. I thought that Frances was yet another child of their’s and that Squire’s wife Francis was born a few years later than the one listed in that census…at any rate she and Squire MD in 1843 in Floyd Co, KY…and yes, he MD Nancy nee Harmon (legally or not) sometime in abt the mid 1850’s…add to his “wives” Nancy nee Smith and also Perlina Jane Cole…he was one busy fella! To my knowledge, Squire never married a gal named Mary…although his brother Alex did and they had to my knowledge 7 Ch born between 1831 and 1844. Her surname is lost by me at this point.Also, note that brother Ira MD a Mary when he MD Mary Ann “Polly” Nichols in abt 1849 (they having 2 CH that I know tell of). *He MD 2 other times as well. All told I still have over a dozen CH for Bryson and Fannie although soem of those CH may well have been his from a prior union…perhaps to Mary nee Hudson…yet unprovable but speculated upon. Anyhow…glad to see you are posting…keep posting and keep in touch…take great care~~~Laurie

[Greydove]

Hi Laurie! I was hoping to see you posting again as I wanted to compare Nichols with you. Here is a previous post btn Anne & I…..Quote:

Originally Posted by Anne Poole ……My name is Anne Nichols Poole, and I am delighted to have found Saponitown Forum ! I am researching my genealogy and as I recently heard someone say, I have hit the “brickest of the brick walls !” I am very interested in several things. My earliest confirmed ancestor is a William Nichols, born about 1720 in Brunswick, Va. For the past year I have suspected that we may have a Native connection somewhere, I just can’t find the somewhere ! If anyone can help me with learning more about any of the Nichols line that was in the Virginia area, especially around Brunswick, I would be so very grateful ! This William has eluded us for a very long time, and we would be so happy to learn more about this early part of our Nichols family. I am also one of the founding staff members of The Lost Colony Group, and have been a Lost Colony researcher for many years. I was reading some of the posts and see where some of you may be connected to the Chowan Native groups. Although I don’t have specific names to share, there are some that I may possibly be able to comment on. We also believe that it is highly possible that some of the Lost Colony married into the Chowan groups, and I will be glad to share those names and info with anyone who may be interested. If anyone can share Nichols info with me, especially if they know of first names of Henry, Richard, and William, I would appreciate learning about the information connected with the names. I am also glad to share any of the info I have regarding The Lost Colony, and also wonder if any of you may have such a history in your family ! Thanks…. Anne Nichols Poole

Hello Anne! I have Nichols. My line goes like this: John Nichols b 1636 Eng d 1706 Dorchester, Maryland (wife-unknown) son–John b 1686 d1758 Caroline, Maryland (wife- Grace Noble b-? d 1736 –son–Levan b 1730 d 1821 Bath, VA (wife-unknown)–son–Zephaniah b 1763 Kent, Maryland d 1834 Nicolas VA (wife-unknown)–son–James b 1783 Barnstable Mass d 1859 Nicolas VA (wife-Sarah Pierson b 1803 Monroe VA d 1880 Clay VA)–son–Alexander b 1815 d 1887 Nicolas VA (wife–Harriet Summers b 1819 d ?Nicolas VA–dau–Sarah Jane b 1841 Nicolas VA d 1914 IN. (She was my GG_Grandmother) Looking at the dates, my Levan could be related to your William? You never can discount anything till you know for sure. Anyway, Good Luck to you Anne Peace~~^~~Greydove

__________________

Surnames I’m researching: Paternal: Fitzwater, Nichols, Hamrick, Summers, Sparks, Pierson, Davis, McCaslen, Reynolds, Sias, Bailes, Hart, Martin, Foster. Also, Irish lines: Bearkley & Duffy. Maternal: Brady, Dazey, Watts, and Swank.

Is there any connection? Good to see you back Laurie! ~^~:) Greydove

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Hello Dove….Anne….gee, I feel bad that I missed the original posts when you (Anne) initially inquired about the Nichols surname…thank you for bringing it forward Dove. I’m not at all certain if or how our Nichosl lines may connect but I will spill what I have and know based on a few more recent Nichols developments utilizing Y-DNA testing. As I have mentioned before…my mother was a Nichols child…her mother was Arabella Nichols…her father was James Nichols (born in Adams Co, OH, died in Cynthiana, Harrison Co, KY)…his parents were William Nichols born in KY & Nancy Jane nee Thompson born in NC…William’s parents were State Nichols born in abt 1809 VA or KY and Nancy Jane nee Gibson born in VA or KY. Above them we have faultered at locating their direct Nichols line. My Nichols/Gibson clan migrated from VA to KY and then to OH and they lived with, married and worked and migrated with core surnames: Gibson, Cole, Collins & Perkins to name the most prominent. In Magoffin Co, KY they were the group that were labelled the “Magoffin County Brown People”…once they fled KY to OH they were established in the Brushcreek Twp area of Highland County and were called the “Carmel Indians”. As a group they have been noted as being in VA, KY, TN and OH…and onward for some to OK, MI. They have been notes by some as being a part of the “core Melungeon group” but that labell appears to be just that rather than a racial designation. I have seen them alternately listed in census records and other documents as W (white), MU (mullato), B (Black), Negro, Mixed-blood, Half-blood, Red, Copper & Indian. The family stories all indicate a designation as “Blue Eyed Cherokee”…but as I have stated on numerous occasions, it is my belief that the Cherokee tribal tossing was used analogously by our ancestors because it was a most commonly known tribe. In essence, it meant “Indian”. At any rate…my kinfolk aligned most prominently with a second lien of Nichols…descending from a William Nichols born about 1800 in prob. VA who md Elizabeth “Dolly” nee Perkins. These 2 Nichosl families truly epitomized the “family sticks together” rule of those times…often raising each other’s children, intermarrying and even law scraping…they attended the same churches and as a whole remained in constant contact for many many years and generations. That sparked an interest in utilizing Y-DNA testing measures to try and determine if these 2 Nichols lines bore a genetically close ancestry/lineage. I contacted 2 male direct line Nichols descendants/cousins and they agreed to test last year…one cousin is a male decended from My exact maternal line (State) and the other cousin is a direct male descended from the other (William)…the results came back with great exactitude…the 2 match exactly at all tested alleles and they were placed on Brian Hammans site as R1b!c by Haplogrouping. Most interestingly…they also matched exactly with 3 other males who previously tested…these new cousins descend from the Nichols line of John Haymond/Hammond Nichols & Cassandra Wilcoxsin line via grandson Joseph Reuben Nichols born in Greenbrier Co, VA and his wife Rebecca Stevens. Their line of Nichols migrated from MD to VA to KY to OH if memory serves me correctly. We have made continued contact with these fellows and are attempting to determine how all 3 lines merged and who the patriarch coudl have been…at this point we have looked at Simon Nichols, Levan Nichols & William Nichols lines…we are waiting for another Nichols Y-DNA test to be brought about that may connect us moreso to another line of Nichosl that migrated from DE/MD to VA to KY to MI. It is , at this point our suspiscion, merely speculative at this point, that our patriarch was another William Nichols line that included sons: Albert or William, Joseph & Thomas. Because of their subsitance farming employ and racially biased demarkations there is very little by way of a “paper trail” following them back past say the early 1800’s. They are mentioned in the Stoney Creek Church minutes and hinted at in other source documents but for now, we just cannot be certain of their earliest beginnings. All of these aforementioned Nichols families thus far tested have the same oral traditions of being of Native descent…and have heard of a Scotch/Irish male beginning coupled with marriages into Native women’s clans. It appears for now that that is an altruistic commentary. We are confident that we are likely mixed with Saponi and Cherokee groups and have had many of our kinfolk file ECA’s. I apologize for inconcise gaps in our genealgies but it is what it is at this point in time. Cousin Carl Nichols sent me a tree that he felt for the longest time was a branch of our lines and that tree did include your (Anne’s) line descending from Levan and his son Zephania however, it appears that by Haplogrouping, your line is G2 so I am not certain nor confident as of yet how they may connect if at all. The Lost Colony has been brought forward and to my attention before but honestly I knwo so little about it I cannot summise a guess as to if it lends merit for my maternal ancestors or not. More as it develops or strikes me…please keep me posted on any further news or developements or quearies you may have. Thanks again for the genealogical interest and postings. Blessings~~~Laurie

[Steve-o]

Oh come on now people…

Let’s look at things in a real and rational light. To believe this theory that it was better to be a black man than an Indian just doesn’t make sense. During the slave times in Virginia, you would have folks to believe that Native Americans, who’s worst thing to happen to them was to be killed, would rather just walk onto a plantation and become a slave? That rationale just does not make any sense. Oh sure…some native loved some slave so much that he just walked onto some plantation and started having kids…and I love an Iraqi girl so much that I think I am going to abandon my wife and kids, go over to Iraq and give up my freedoms, risk being shot in the head, and live as an Iraqi.

None of this theory makes any sense when thought about. Some native saying to himself that he or she would rather be owned, beaten, and forced into labor, rather than being somewhat free with only the fear of being killed for being native…come on here folks? Can we get out of the Twilight Zone here?

I’m sure someone is going to try and rationalize this all to the point of making sense to me. But can you just cut to the chase and explain why in the world it was better to be black than native? And if you mention Roanoke and the slave trade market, I am going to scream. Give me some actual facts and no theories when you do.

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Don’t know quite whom you are addressing in your post SteveO but since it doesn’t seem to apply to my post of line of comments I’ll just sail past it so as not to be controversial. The only comment I do wish to share is that many of my ancestors were labelled as B and FPC and I cannot imagine that that was their personal choice so much as a census or local official’s bias based on their tawny coloring or weather-worn complexions?…maybe too, because they did not LOOK classic “white” they opted for the only other racial designation available then. In fact, a whole slew of my kin marched en masse to a county courthouse on more than one occasion in order to have their birth certificates amended to reflect their more altruistic racial designation of I (indian) as opposed to the B (black) that found the papers. Oddly, some siblings were listed differently than others. Oh well…that’s my little ditty. Peace~~~L

[Steve-o]

Ohio “Yes”, but Virginia and other Southern states “No”…

I know many of whom you speak of and know quite a few people you are related to. All I am doing in writing the above is saying that no one is clarifying much on things in their posts, enough anyway to deter folks from getting things straight. I could have chimed in anywhere on this forum with the above message, but wanted to throw a shock into some people’s systems as it were.

Ohio was and is a Union state, Virginia was a Confederate state. So it should be clarified that just because things happened in Carmel Ohio, it does not mean it happened across the entire USA. People have been throwing up to me alot…”But, but, but it happened in Carmel so it happened in Virginia too.”

Nope, again Ohio = Union, Virginia = Confederate. The slave market was the main source of income for the Virginians and other southern states…a few up north wanted to capitalize, but mainly it was a southern thing.

That said, the mindset was different than in the north, thus my post above.

The above post may have fit more nicely into another thread, but it also fits here. Logistics & common sense needs to be thought about.

[Greydove]

BlondeyeLaurie wrote: Hello Dove….Anne….gee, I feel bad that I missed the original posts when you (Anne) initially inquired about the Nichols surname…thank you for bringing it forward Dove. I’m not at all certain if or how our Nichosl lines may connect but I will spill what I have and know based on a few more recent Nichols developments utilizing Y-DNA testing. As I have mentioned before…my mother was a Nichols child…her mother was Arabella Nichols…her father was James Nichols (born in Adams Co, OH, died in Cynthiana, Harrison Co, KY)…his parents were William Nichols born in KY & Nancy Jane nee Thompson born in NC…William’s parents were State Nichols born in abt 1809 VA or KY and Nancy Jane nee Gibson born in VA or KY. Above them we have faultered at locating their direct Nichols line. My Nichols/Gibson clan migrated from VA to KY and then to OH and they lived with, married and worked and migrated with core surnames: Gibson, Cole, Collins & Perkins to name the most prominent. In Magoffin Co, KY they were the group that were labelled the “Magoffin County Brown People”…once they fled KY to OH they were established in the Brushcreek Twp area of Highland County and were called the “Carmel Indians”. As a group they have been noted as being in VA, KY, TN and OH…and onward for some to OK, MI. They have been notes by some as being a part of the “core Melungeon group” but that labell appears to be just that rather than a racial designation. I have seen them alternately listed in census records and other documents as W (white), MU (mullato), B (Black), Negro, Mixed-blood, Half-blood, Red, Copper & Indian. The family stories all indicate a designation as “Blue Eyed Cherokee”…but as I have stated on numerous occasions, it is my belief that the Cherokee tribal tossing was used analogously by our ancestors because it was a most commonly known tribe. In essence, it meant “Indian”. At any rate…my kinfolk aligned most prominently with a second lien of Nichols…descending from a William Nichols born about 1800 in prob. VA who md Elizabeth “Dolly” nee Perkins. These 2 Nichosl families truly epitomized the “family sticks together” rule of those times…often raising each other’s children, intermarrying and even law scraping…they attended the same churches and as a whole remained in constant contact for many many years and generations. That sparked an interest in utilizing Y-DNA testing measures to try and determine if these 2 Nichols lines bore a genetically close ancestry/lineage. I contacted 2 male direct line Nichols descendants/cousins and they agreed to test last year…one cousin is a male decended from My exact maternal line (State) and the other cousin is a direct male descended from the other (William)…the results came back with great exactitude…the 2 match exactly at all tested alleles and they were placed on Brian Hammans site as R1b!c by Haplogrouping. Most interestingly…they also matched exactly with 3 other males who previously tested…these new cousins descend from the Nichols line of John Haymond/Hammond Nichols & Cassandra Wilcoxsin line via grandson Joseph Reuben Nichols born in Greenbrier Co, VA and his wife Rebecca Stevens. Their line of Nichols migrated from MD to VA to KY to OH if memory serves me correctly. We have made continued contact with these fellows and are attempting to determine how all 3 lines merged and who the patriarch coudl have been…at this point we have looked at Simon Nichols, Levan Nichols & William Nichols lines…we are waiting for another Nichols Y-DNA test to be brought about that may connect us moreso to another line of Nichosl that migrated from DE/MD to VA to KY to MI. It is , at this point our suspiscion, merely speculative at this point, that our patriarch was another William Nichols line that included sons: Albert or William, Joseph & Thomas. Because of their subsitance farming employ and racially biased demarkations there is very little by way of a “paper trail” following them back past say the early 1800’s. They are mentioned in the Stoney Creek Church minutes and hinted at in other source documents but for now, we just cannot be certain of their earliest beginnings. All of these aforementioned Nichols families thus far tested have the same oral traditions of being of Native descent…and have heard of a Scotch/Irish male beginning coupled with marriages into Native women’s clans. It appears for now that that is an altruistic commentary. We are confident that we are likely mixed with Saponi and Cherokee groups and have had many of our kinfolk file ECA’s. I apologize for inconcise gaps in our genealgies but it is what it is at this point in time. Cousin Carl Nichols sent me a tree that he felt for the longest time was a branch of our lines and that tree did include your (Anne’s) line descending from Levan and his son Zephania however, it appears that by Haplogrouping, your line is G2 so I am not certain nor confident as of yet how they may connect if at all. The Lost Colony has been brought forward and to my attention before but honestly I knwo so little about it I cannot summise a guess as to if it lends merit for my maternal ancestors or not. More as it develops or strikes me…please keep me posted on any further news or developements or quearies you may have. Thanks again for the genealogical interest and postings. Blessings~~~Laurie

Hi Laurie, Thanks for replying. I don’t know much abt the dna- testing, so I guess I need to study up on it. What does G2 mean? Anyway I appreciate your responce. Take care and I look forward to swapping info with you. ni-hi (you) a-ya (me) u-na-li-i (friend) ~^~Greydove

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