- This topic has 19 voices and 51 replies.
-
Posts
-
Thanks Bill, Emma —
My knowledge of the “Buffalo Ridge Cherokee” is very limited and I am just learning about the Monacan that remain in Amherst County (altho I have heard of them for a couple of years), so I don’t feel comfortable discussing either very deeply, altho it is something I do want to discuss and learn more about.
I am more comfortable discusing the Cherokee as I have done a great deal of research (and I try to be objective) on this topic.
There are a couple of points —
Emma said —
This is really ironic that we would question anyone’s self identification as Cherokee. It is the EXACT same thing as those who claim Blackfoot, Sioux, Apache, Melungeon etc.
reply —
That is a generalization, but a good point. We need emperical evidence to justify anyone. Our family has a Cherokee self-Identification story, but we have sought evidence to support that claim. Anyone claiming to BE Cherokee ought to do that. Anyone claiming to be Melungeon, Eastern Siouan, or any other ethnic background should need to come up with evidence of it as well. There is a big difference in saying “We have a family story says we are Cherokee” and saying “I am Cherokee”. The former implies it is NOT a proven fact and the latter implies “I have documents to back it up.”
Emma, it is a must that self identification be verified, and if that is not possible, it is important that evidence be gathered. This is why I am against any terminology called “Blackfoot Tribe” but not against the term “Eastern Blackfoot Heritage Association” or something of this nature. I have met people white as sheets who say they are “half Cherokee” all my life, where as my father (who had brown skin) always said “oh, I have a little Indian blood, not much” when asked. His mother and uncles (yall have seen 2 of his uncles on this forum) could have easily passed for fullblood. My skin is lighter than his was and I am by closest guess 1/8th to 3/16th Indian at most I suspect. I think these people claiming to be half might be 1/8th but that is the most Indian blood they might have, no way are they half. Most Indian people I have met are self afacing and humble, not full of false bravado.
I have never self-identified my family as Blackfoot or Melungeon.
I have said we lived where that Blackfoot Church was found in S Indiana at about the time it was founded. I have discovered the surnames Dicksn, Hamilton and Woods are found amongst documented records of these Eastern Siouan peoples.
I have said my direct ancestor’s brother attended the Melungeon Church (Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church) and he was church clerk in 1813, so most likely he was the man who wrote the word “Melungin” in those church records. I also found a photo of a man (Rev. Jonathan Wayland) taken from “History of Methodism in Arkansas.” I have found “some” emperical evidence that Nevil Wayland Sr.’s wife was “Kezziah Gibson” (also spelled “Cusiah”)– but no proof a we have never found any marriage records.
I wrote the “Melungian Heritage Association” showing them the photo of Rev Wayland and received the following reply —
Thank you for the information and picture you sent.
I have shared this with the Pres, Sec and Treas of
MHA. Would you give us permission to share this with others
in the future? Thank you for your interest in our shared heritage.
I had shared this with others on a Melungeon board and they never agreed to share the photo, I never understood why, so I am happy that I found someone that would. This is as close to being acknowledged as a “Melungion descent” as I have ever received from anyone.
So Emma, I personally feel strongly that evidence needs to be gathered — I always have. I feel just as strongly evidence of self Identification as one Ethnic group or another be found to back up any claims made. I have always harped on this here on this forum.
Emma said —
Please keep in mind contact–most of the tribes were already trading with colonials and living amongst them, and the Cherokee were already quite assimiliated.
reply —
assimilation — act of being assimilated
assimilate — to be absorbed.
To this day there are full blood Cherokee who speak Cherokee as a primary language at home. All Cherokee are not fully assimilated even today.
The Cherokee didn’t accept missionaries in their nation until after the last of the Cherokee Wars ended in 1794, and those missionaries and schools really didn’t get started until about the beginning of the 19th century, when Methodist, Moravian, Presbyterian, and Baptist missions/mission schools were all opened. Before that there were attempts to open up schools but the Cherokee always said “no” to it. It was from about 1804 to the removal in 1838-9 when many Cherokee really started accepting Western Ways as the floodgates of westernization really opened up. Before that there was just minor acceptance of Caucasian culture.
Also it is my observation that the Cherokee in Oklahoma today would consider those Cherokee who left the nation and lived with Whites as the assimilated ones, as those that left the nation are the ones that lost all contact with and most knowledge of Cherokee culture.
I once discussed this with a Cherokee Nation official who told me culture is an ever evolving thing, just as White Culture has changed from the 1700s til today, so has Cherokee culture, and there is no reason to let writers of the 18th century dictate what Cherokee culture has evolved into today. Is this assimilation? Maybe it is . . . maybe it is evolution . . . or maybe it is a hybrid concept, part assimilation and partly what it would have naturally evolved into anyhow.
vance
Hi Vance,
I have a bunch of Hicks (family name 🙂 ) on my dad’s side. They are white. Yet at my job, I have talked with a couple Hicks men and they were black. My Hicks apparently are not native american.
Mary Lou
Saponi1,
My point is that they were first id’d as Cherokee in only 1896 by a white outsider who had invested no time in interviewing or researching their origins, while they themselves maintained they had always been there as “Indian Men and Indian Women” (Cook, “Monacans and Miners”). (This situation appears kinda like “Melungeons” being called that by others but never by themselves.) Some of my people thought we were Cherokee but their origins prove otherwise.
Regarding the Buffalo Ridge people’s statement as a “given”, they would likely be Monacan or another Eastern Siouan people, predating the Cherokee use of European surnames by 50 years at least, based only on the earliest people “Joe Payne” lists as Monacan.
Joe Payne’s question on his website should be reversed, historically speaking, to ask why some Cherokee used “Monacan names” and how those Cherokee came by them, if he were inclined to finding truth. Might they be Cherokee? Could be, but that wasn’t how they id’d themselves prior to 1896.
Whether the Buffalo Ridge people were/are full-blood people, White/Indian people or Black/Indian people wasn’t my point.
Some or all may differ, but I think if one is “Indian-Indian” or “White-Indian” or “Black-Indian”, one is Indian.
I don’t have a lot of time but I will throw this out for thought and investigation if anyone has the time or inclination. First of all, the Cherokee and Catawba traded and sold each other. Two, not only did some Catawba in later years actually go and live with the Cherokee (Guys for instance). The Saponi went to live with the Catawba at one point. In fact, there are some that felt they were our elder brothers… The Monacan have also been called by Thomas Jefferson Tuscarora– Again, I really don’t care if the Buffalo Ridge Cherokee call themselves the Tasmanian Devils of the Fickle Footed Feret Clan however any argument that can be used to question their claim to self-identification can be used as a counter argument to any other group–period full stop.
There has been a lot of evidence that the word Cherokee was used generically in the 19th century to describe any ‘friendly’ Indian, especially in the east. If someone is offended at the suggestion that the ID in their family isn’t accurate, I immediately back off, but many people are relieved and intrigued to find out that there may be a rational explanation why their family surnames don’t connect to any Cherokee names. For example, a lot of people with VA/NC Siouan surnames and locations carried the ID of Cherokee. Many we’ve come across have been very happy to find out there’s another possibility after so many dead ends.
Personally, I spent many years entirely skeptical about the Blackfoot ID in our family, and assumed it was something made up to placate curious children. It wasn’t till I’d had my nose rubbed in a lot of clues for a long time that I finally started to pursue it with some open-mindedness, and when I finally did, the trail got very, very warm. I started the inquiry with the idea, “I’m just going to find out what Indians were in the places my family were,” what I kept coming across was “Blackfoot,” “Blackfoot,” “Blackfoot.” It seems everywhere my family was for the past 300 years there’s been some Blackfoot tie-in along the way. So at this point, after all that legwork, if someone implies it’s a bogus ID, I’m offended. But initially I was the biggest skeptic around.
Thanks Mary Lou,
That is a problem with many of us are faced with. Having an Indian surname just means we “might have” Indian blood from them. I have many ancestors and I know “some of them” were Indian but some must have been white too — but I can prove very little of it, one way or the other (except on Mom’s side of the family — German/Scots-Irish mostly). It must be a good feeling to be able to “prove it” one way or the other. 🙂
Linda,
I think you are right about that — so many groups want to call themselves “Cherokee”. When I tell someone this and they get offended I am not as tactful as you are, but I wish I knew how to be like that — I try to be understanding.
Emma,
The Chickasaw also were famous for selling Indian slaves in South Carolina and for a while there was a Chickasaw Village of about 200 in SC. I don’t know when they left but they were there for quite a while. They aided the Brittish in some war and were known to be on very friendly terms with the colonists. They were rewarded with this land in the east. I believe this Eastern Chickasaw Town was on or near the Savannah River.
As for the possible Catawba/Saponi/Cherokee connection, I took a trip to Alabama 2 years ago to learn more about the state recognized Cherokee in Alabama. I felt my family were closer to the Echota Band than the NE Al Band, largely because of where they lived. But the only people I met from the Echota Cherokee were surnamed “Riddle”, which I have never thought of as a Cherokee surname. This group was based in Walker, Winston, and Lawrence County in N Central Alabama, also probably near Decatur and Huntsville areas of Alabama. They say as there were Cheroke in NC after teh removal, there were also Cherokee on the Tennessee River living in lands ceeded from about 1806 to 1818 or so. I looked at other surnames and I recall some more common to Eastern Siouan than Cherokee. “Warrior Mountain Folklore” byRicky (Butch) Walker mentions some of those surnames. It is printed by Lawrence County Schools Indian Education Program, PO Box 365, Moulton, Alabama 35650. My people in Alabama can be traced to Lawrence Co., Al. There is a second book I forget the name, “Sipsey Wilderness . . . something” by Jim Manusco.
I recall hearing many land grants in that region (Lawrence Co., Al)were handed out after the Creek Red Stick War 1813. I know the Chickasaw sent 300 warriors to fight the Creek under William Colbert, while a contingent of Cherokee under Richard Brown (which is also a Catawba surname) also participated in this conflict. Both were mixed-bloods. William was son of James Logan Colbert, whose grandpa was “probably” James Logan, mentioned as an early trader living near the Occoneechee Island area. This is mentioned on a website put up by a descendant of the Chickasaw Colberts, but I think he is on the rolls as Choctaw. I believe I posted it here somewhere in the past. I recall reading that many descendants of the Melungeons volunteered for the War of 1812, with the Creek War being part of that conflict.
Bill,
I am reading that book right now, Monacans and Miners. He also says some of these people lived in neighboring Rockbridge County (somewhere about p 50 or 60), which meant a lot to me because I can trace my Woods/Hamilton ancestors to Rickbridge County. Interestingly, it says Amherst County was formed from Albemarle County, and my Wood/Hamilton ancestors were in Albemarle County, at least from the mid 1740s til @ 1770 (that is probably before Amherst County existed, I need to look that up). Afterwards they went to Augusta (part of Augusta that later became Rockbridge — that has been looked up).
Vance
Originally posted by Saponi 1
I don’t have a lot of time but I will throw this out for thought and investigation if anyone has the time or inclination. First of all, the Cherokee and Catawba traded and sold each other. Two, not only did some Catawba in later years actually go and live with the Cherokee (Guys for instance). The Saponi went to live with the Catawba at one point. In fact, there are some that felt they were our elder brothers… The Monacan have also been called by Thomas Jefferson Tuscarora–
This isn’t directly related to the original topic, but I thought I’d throw in a couple of thoughts. I can’t find the reference at the moment, but have also seen Batts and Fallam’s Mohecans/Moketans/Mehetans–on either side of the present VA/WV line–identified as Tuscarora. Given that many small groups of Tuscarora migrated northward, with the mountains as the most logical route (identified as such in now-WV), maybe enough joined the Monacan for them to somewhat reasonably be identified as Tuscarora at the time. I suspect that this is the case with the otherwise-assumed Siouan Mohetan. My mom’s family is Tutelo/Mohetan from the New River and Roanoke Valleys, and her great-grandmother’s story of having Tuscarora in the family makes it seem even more likely. Tutelo and Monacan territories apparently overlapped around Roanoke, as well.
Beyond the Piedmont Saponi/Catawba connection, migrating and intermarrying (surely bringing some Catawba relatives with them when they came back into VA/NC), there is a section of Roanoke County full of Catawba place/feature names, a la the old Sapony River. Along with oral history of connection to the Catawba, that seems to suggest that at least one group moved into the mountains there and were probably assimilated.
Sorry, just hashing things out a bit! 🙂
Originally posted by vance hawkins
Emma,
The Chickasaw also were famous for selling Indian slaves in South Carolina and for a while there was a Chickasaw Village of about 200 in SC. I don’t know when they left but they were there for quite a while. They aided the Brittish in some war and were known to be on very friendly terms with the colonists. They were rewarded with this land in the east. I believe this Eastern Chickasaw Town was on or near the Savannah River.
As for the possible Catawba/Saponi/Cherokee connection, I took a trip to Alabama 2 years ago to learn more about the state recognized Cherokee in Alabama. I felt my family were closer to the Echota Band than the NE Al Band, largely because of where they lived. But the only people I met from the Echota Cherokee were surnamed “Riddle”, which I have never thought of as a Cherokee surname. This group was based in Walker, Winston, and Lawrence County in N Central Alabama, also probably near Decatur and Huntsville areas of Alabama. They say as there were Cheroke in NC after teh removal, there were also Cherokee on the Tennessee River living in lands ceeded from about 1806 to 1818 or so. I looked at other surnames and I recall some more common to Eastern Siouan than Cherokee. “Warrior Mountain Folklore” byRicky (Butch) Walker mentions some of those surnames. It is printed by Lawrence County Schools Indian Education Program, PO Box 365, Moulton, Alabama 35650. My people in Alabama can be traced to Lawrence Co., Al. There is a second book I forget the name, “Sipsey Wilderness . . . something” by Jim Manusco.
I recall hearing many land grants in that region (Lawrence Co., Al)were handed out after the Creek Red Stick War 1813. I know the Chickasaw sent 300 warriors to fight the Creek under William Colbert, while a contingent of Cherokee under Richard Brown (which is also a Catawba surname) also participated in this conflict. Both were mixed-bloods. William was son of James Logan Colbert, whose grandpa was “probably” James Logan, mentioned as an early trader living near the Occoneechee Island area. This is mentioned on a website put up by a descendant of the Chickasaw Colberts, but I think he is on the rolls as Choctaw. I believe I posted it here somewhere in the past. I recall reading that many descendants of the Melungeons volunteered for the War of 1812, with the Creek War being part of that conflict.
Vance
I have said this elsewhere, but my Riddle ancestors were thought to be Cherokee. In fact, my mother spoke with Mr. Mooney in Tahlequah and said that the name Riddle is associated with Doublehead’s group.
My great-grandfather spoke fluent Cherokee and was familiar with their culture and medicinal remedies. He refused to share it and thought there was no use for it anymore 🙁
In doing research as of late, I have traced my Riddles directly to William Riddle of Virginia, who is said to not be Cherokee. All I can figure is that my great-grandfathers grandma was Cherokee, although there is no mention of her having Indian blood whatsoever (her picture shows her most definitely being of native descent).
Brandon
As far as the Monacan’s are concerned the Buffalo Ridge Cherokee’s aren’t one in the same. Plus how can they be? Since one group is called Cherokee and the other isn’t. 😉 I’ve stated this a few years back ,so those with a good memory excuse me repeating myself. The Buffalo Ridge went to the Va. Council of Indians and tried to get recognized by the State, however they were turned down even though they had the required documents. The Va. Council of Indians changed the requirements for getting State recognition after the Monacan’s became recognized. So, that left the Buffalo Ridge out in the cold so to speak. Was it intentional so they could deny them their rights? Yes it was. I was told point blank over the phone, “The Buffalo Ridge Cherokee Indians are too dark”. It’s a race issue, some our own people can’t even step out of racism how do we expect others to treat us any better? :confused:
Vance,
I realize you come from Ok, and as you stated you are new to Virginia research. So how about us telling you what we know, what little we have left to remember? All I can say is this Virginia prior to 1835 was a part of the Cherokee Nation. All of the Cherokee’s that lived here at the time of the boundry change were no longer looked at as Cherokee. They were by blood, but they couldn’t be a part of the Cherokee Nation unless they moved out of Virginia.
My family is from the Amherst area, and my grandmother told me that we are Cherokee, she never mentioned any other Tribe. I am going by the old ways and believing what my grandmother passed down to me. He words may not be proof enough for you, but honestly at the point I have come to in my life’s journey it doesn’t matter what others think. I would and never have questioned what you are, because I respect you.
Deborah aka coheelady
Hey Cohee Lady,
Emma here (Saponi 1),
I understand exactly where you are coming from with this.
I too have heard similar things about the Buffalo Ridge Cherokee and it is indeed a shame because some look as the old records describe our people, dark, copper colored people with black hair–they look that way now. It is ironic that here in VA Plecker’s legacy is being safeguarded by some of the very people he sought to control and destroy. It seems like a gentlemen’s agreement, “We will let you be indian as long as you keep those dark people out.” I have heard people that definitely look and live as indian from Amherst referred to as the “N” word by others that look 100% caucasian. It is indeed very sad. We have some real work to do–but honestly no one wants to deal with this…
Before people start jumping in, in the tribes defense. This is not a new story all over the south east and up and down the east coast, all the way to the Freeman in Oklahoma the story is told over and over again.
The rule has always been to divide and conquer, assimilate and absorb. You can not get rid of people or assimiliate them out of existence if they keep marrying “those dark people” can you?
So of course to marry white, has been the rule, and ‘black blood’ amongst the tribes is denied even when it is as plain as the phenotype on the face, or the wave of the hair.
So of course many actually believe indians are ‘just’ white and indian–of yes, with very little black (which of course is always denied).
This kind of reminds me of a story that used to be said about slaves–that the best blood of the aristocracy was in chain, right under everyone’s noses. And in this same grain I believe that the maybe not the best blood–but alot of Indian blood is right in the ‘so called dark people’s blood.’
It is so strange I even had one of the VA indians tell me that the
Powhatans were always light–I almost laughed…
This is probably why Paul Heinegg has made a career debunking many Southeastern Indian genealogies for right or wrong. But again, this is a VERY nasty subject. With very few winners, less of all Indian people. What is the answer when the tribes are going along with this as they slowly fade away–not just in phenotype but also with traditions…
It seems impossible to stop people or groups of people from being prejudiced….human nature..
It also seems next to impossible for many of us to pinpoint an exact tribe to identify with as there certainly was mixing very early on.
I’m always glad to see you posting Emma.
Saj
Cohee Lady —
Yes I am new to Virginia ways. But I am not new to a study of Cherokee history. I understand and applaud your desire not to disagree with your ancestors. I mean neither them nor you any disrespect. That is not my intention.
Historically, the last Cherokee raid into Virginia was in 1794 when Chief Benge came up from Chattanooga area where he lived to Clinch River and raided someplace near that river in SW Va. He was followed and killed by the local militia/rangers. His home was down around Chattanooga, Tn, and that is where all the Chickamauga lived at that time, except those that went with Chief Watts (who became chief of all the Lower Towns after Dragging Caone died in 1792) to settle Turkeytown, Willstown, Creekpath, and other places in N Alabama. Chattanooga was really too far North for many Chickamauga by that time, but some remained behind anyhow. Chief Glass was Chief of Lookout Mountain about 1800, so some Cherokee still lived there.
There were no Kentucky Chickamauga towns — none.
Having said that, I found a reference saying saying Chief Benge’s parents lived in SW Va. When I find the time I’ll bring that reference here. I am not sure if it is historically accorate or not, but it might be. His father was white and his mother was Cherokee.
If you read Cherokee history, you will know all the Cherokee villages were much further south, maybe 100 miles or more, and they kept being pushed further south as settlers illegally moved onto their lands decade after decade.
If there were Cherokee in Va it was probably some white man who married a Cherokee girl and then moved her to live with his people.
There are a lot of people who say “Chereokee were whiter than other Indians” — that’s not true. I have seen plenty of full bloods and they are very dark complected, probably a little darker than Plains Tribes. Some people say that of course so they can say they are “half-Cherokee” when at most they are 1/8th or 1/16th.
I freely admit I don’t know much about the Buffalo Ridge Cherokee. I knew I read they were from Amherst County and that is where the Monacan are from. So I had assumed they were the same.
What does anyone know about them, if they are not the same? Do they have the same surnames as the Monacan? Do they have Cherokee surnames? The Monacan surnames I saw were not Cherokee surnames (for the most part).
It is possible they had relatives that went to live with the Cherokee and those relations successfully were assimilated into Cherokee culture.
My direct ancestor John Woods lived from the late 1780s until 1806 near the mouth of French Broad River in Eastern Tennessee, and from 1801-1803 Chief Glass (this is why I knew something about him) gave him a passport to live in the Cherokee Nation at Lookout Mountain and ply his craft of “blacksmith”. This is recorded in Jonathan R Meigs papers. John Woods was born in Albamarle Co., Va in 1745 and after he married Mary Hamilton in 1768 they moved to a part of Augusta County that later became Rockbridge County. One relative of my Woods (who never looked for Indian relations) said they moved to a place where there was a mound made of freshwater shells on their land. I have documentation for all of this.
Perhaps other families from SW Va made a similar migration and lived amongst the Cherokee. I have no doubt some Saponi probably did live amongst the Cherokee, and their descendants became accepted as Cherokee. There was a lot of such mixing amongst all tribes.
Vance
There is a very interesting discussion on Indianz.com in their Free For All section that touches upon race and DNA as related to the Cherokee Freeman.
If you have difficulty locating the forum section look at the top
left hand side of the page and there are some small icons that link to the forum, select Free For All the topic is called One Drop of Blood.
http://64.62.196.98/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15571
Emma, thank you for posting that thread at the Indianz.com message board.
I hope everyone here at Saponitown forum reads this material.
vance
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
