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Thought I should start a new thread on this one…there is so much information on here…I’d like to know what you think of it Vance….
The Samuel mentioned here that freed 274 slaves in his will and married the wealthy widow…Mary Massie…Smith…
Mary Massie is the Daughter of Elizabeth Walker..sister to Elizabeth Allen who married Robert I Allen. Samuel could be of a different mix as they talk of the Gist family..but probably not related to Sequoyah..
If you go to the menu to the genealogy..then to surnames..there is a new listing for Hanks census and marriage records..Melungeon..two of Memucan Hunt allen’s children married Hanks. They are on this list..Joseph Allen to Lucy and Elizabeth Penney to Chichester..Elizabeth was an Allen married Penney..there are many interesting articles..etc. Sue J
Sue, I was at the Historical society recently and as I was looking for a copy of one of my ancestors Revolutionary war pension applications I found Mumucan Walkers original application for a Rev. pension right next to my ancestor’s application. I asked the Direstor how much a copy would cost just in case you would be interested in one and he said five dollars. If you would like I can have a copy made. Also you mentioned the melungeons.I found a site by Tim hashaw and he is talking about the African origin of the American Melungeons you can check it out if you like. Here is the link. http://www.eclectica.org/v5n3/hashaw.html I am not saying that I agree or disagree with him but I thought that it would be interesting to read.
Sue, That’s one of Don “Panther” Yates websites. He and I have emailed back and forth quite a lot. If oyou do a search for his name he has other websites. If you email him he might write back and he is friendly.
I really like the guy, and we have very civil comments back and forth. I respect him for that — we never let our disagreements degenerate into childish name calling.
Having said that, he has some wild ideas — it appars to me that he believes a great many mixed-blood Indians and Melungeons are really Jewish. I think the dissertation “Who’s Your People?” by Richard Allen Carlson pretty much answers the question of who the Melungeons are — it very much appears that they are Saponi and associated tribes, for the most part.
I believe as someone recently said here, that the simplest explanation is usually the most plausable, and that wild ideas require more definite proof to back them up than do simpler exlanations. I really think that while he’s barking up one tree, the coon’s already vacated it and is now gettin’ away by a route he probably considered, but dismissed.
I am not sayin that he is wrong, but I am sayin’ that I think he’s wrong.
vance
Vance,
I respect what you think…and, I thought the word Melungeon basically meant a mix..which could be tri or biracial or with some other etc. But coming originally from the areas we discuss here of early va and nc migrating into Appalachia..?
And thanks Waitman..I don’t need a copy of it. I have the info on it..but thank you for offering.
I’ll check out his other websites for fun.
Thanks, Sue J
Sue,
Thanks,
I respect your opinion as well.
In the Carlson dissertation he says Melungeon is from a French word melunge meaning mixed — no beating around the bush. And there were French on the inland rivers to the west, as well as refugee French Protestants to the East.
I am more convinced than ever stories of stranded Spaniards, or Portuguese from a ship wreck, or Turkish galley slaves, or Phoenecians, or the lost 10 tribes — well they just don’t make much sense.
There might have been shipwrecked Portuguese sailors. But if Melungeons were descended from them, why aren’t there any Portuguese sounding surnames found amongst them? You’d think most likely they went back to Portugal when the next Portuguese trading vessel showed up.
And why would any Spanish in Florida travel north? They’d head towards known Spanish settlements, rather than inland away from safety, wouldn’t they? They knew the sun rose in the East, and that if they travelled east they’d get to the Atlantic Coast, and if they travelled south frm there they’s eventually hit a Spanish outpost. They also knew if they travelled North they’d hit their English traditional enemies and if they went inland they’d reachIndians who wre probably full of a desire vengeance for past injustices inflicted upon them by the Spanish.
The Spanish came to the Carribean in ships with “sails” in 1492 — no rows of Turkish galley slaves. Maybe I am missing something.
As for Phoenecian, Carthagenean or Hebrew survivors, well in 1500 or more years, any such ancestor would be only 1 in millions from European or North African or west Asian heritage — such a small blood quantum is statistically zero with no physical traits of that race still showing.
vance
Hi,
I followed the link you posted because the name Gist is familiar to me. Where did it mention Christopher Gist? I saw Nathaniel but not Christopher.
Thanks
Christopher gist is mentioned on Pg 7.
I had just thought it was interesting. But there is alot of info here on many other families that is interesting too. Sue J
😀 Vance! You are a man after my own heart! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts.
I basically got out of communicating with other “genealogists” and researchers on the subject of our ancestors because of the melungeon debates. It’s actually been quite hurtful at times, which I’ll try not to get into.
Some of my “relatives” from NE North Carolina (especially the Archers from Hertford, CO) would not even communicate with me because I suggested that they had black blood. I was hung up on and told never to call again. Before they did, one lady said, “we’re full blooded Indians, as all the Archers and Jeffries are around here. We have no “ni_ _ _ _” blood!
When I tried to say my cousin, Dennis Archer (former mayor of Detroit and president of the American Bar Association) was an Archer from Hertford, which he is, they said, “not from our Archer family in Hertford, there must have been some Black Archers here”!
I actually have the 1831 free papers that Lemuel Archer (my g,g,g,g grandfather and his g,g,g grandfather) carried with him while living in NC and even in OH.
The Melungeon “theories” in my humble opinion are simply fantasy concocted by “Dr.” Kennedy and others. Our ancestors couldn’t have possibly just been the most plausible and believable mix of English/Scottish/French (white), African slaves and native Saponis/Tutelos and other local tribes. I think some people think it’s cooler to maybe be Egyptian, Portuguese, Spanish or “Phoenician”, which is a new one to me!
I SO agree with you about the surnames. How come EVERY “melungeon”, who is supposedly Portuguese, has a surname from the British Isles? Did these Portuguese sailors with last names like Joao, Alvaro and Ferreira in one generation adopt Collins, Jeffries, Eppes, Archer, etc? That makes SO much sense. They couldn’t possibly be just what they were, which was Anglo/Gaelic settlers who intermarried/bred with blacks and Indians, eh?
Well, again, I enjoyed reading your many posts. I’m going to continue believing the logical facts of history instead of trying to create some fanciful ancestry. I’m happy to know that I have the blood of three different racial groups flowing through my veins!
Tommy
howdy Tommy —
thanks.
You said somehting interesting —
I actually have the 1831 free papers that Lemuel Archer (my g,g,g,g grandfather and his g,g,g grandfather) carried with him while living in NC and even in OH.
reply —
What would such papers look like? What was written on it? I have heard FPC had to carry such a paper on them at all times or risk being enslaved.
I have a photo of my great grandpa Jeffrey Hoten Richey, 1852-1926, probably taken about 1880 maybe, judging from his age in the picture. He looks like he “might” have some Negro blood, but you can’t really know for sure. His parents were Joseph Richey and Sarah Ann Wayland. Sarah was niece to the man who was church clerk (Nevil Wayland Jr) of Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church at the beginning of the 19th century. Jeffrey H Richey also looks white and Indian . . . he looks tri-racial. He is the only relative whose picure I have seen who looks like he might have Negro blood. I have found one “Solomon Richey” called a “free person of color” in Amherst County, Va., but I am not sure if we are related to him. My John Richey married Mary Woods (Joseph was one of their sons), and those Woods ancestors can be traced to Rockbridge and before that Albamarle County, Va. Rockbridge borders Amherst Co., so Solomon Richey “might be” part of my family — but I may never know for sure.
vance
I am originally from Franklin County NC. But I have discovered that all my traceable family came from Brinkleyville Halifax NC. I grew up as a Black person. My birth certificate indicates that. But when I started the quest to find my ancestors, I got very confused. Growing up I remember snide remarks being made about the Haliwa Saponi tribe and they not being Indian (Native American). However, as my research continues, I am starting to understand the process. Well let me rephrase that — I am starting to get an education — I will never UNDERSTAND the treatment Native Americans have suffered. Can any of you help me identify my true heritage? Whether it be Native American or Melungeon. Melungeon — something that I never even heard of until recently. I am totally confused about them. I only knew one grandparent — my fathers mother — Susie Wilkins, she married a James Lynch. Her mother was Luna Richardson — I can find almost nothing about Luna. My mother does not have a father listed on her Birth Certificate. But he is reportedly a Clarence Richardson. Her maternal grandparents were Arch Silver and Mollie Evans. Any guidance and or information that anyone can provide will be appreciated.
Mack
Vance/MackLynch:
Vance: I will be happy to email a digital version of my ancestor’s free paper to you (I scanned it). The copy I have is actually a photo copy from the clerk in Logan County, OH. Of course, they wouldn’t give/sell me the original no matter HOW bad I begged!;) They had a good reason of course. One, it’s their property, and two, they said, “if you’re a descendent of him, don’t you think there are thousands more of his descendents out there who might want this?” Good point!
MackLynch: I’m definitely not the right person to ask about Melungeons, as I think it’s basically nonsense. Saying someone is a “melungeon” is like saying they are a Mestizo (Mexican who is Spanish and Indian mix), mulatto, quadroon or octoroon.
“researchers say the word Melungeon comes from the
French “melange,” meaning mixture.”
It’s not like “melungeons” are some race from the country of Melunge. :rolleyes:
It’s simply a group of people (everyone on this site) who’s ancestors were from various races who immigrated to the US or who were already living here. The most common, of course, are whites from the British Isles (England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland), the various coastal Indian tribes) and the Africans that were brought here as indentured servants (at the beginning) and slaves. To say that a “melungeon” is some fanciful race of Portuguese, Moroccan, Phoenician and Israeli who somehow got lost in the early US is insane in my opinion.
I’m sorry, I may sound defensive in my posts, and I’m not trying to be. I just try to live in the realm of reality, and the “theories” purported to be facts about Melungeons CANNOT stand the test of scientific evidence.
Tommy
howdy Mack Lynch,
you said —
Growing up I remember snide remarks being made about the Haliwa Saponi tribe and they not being Indian (Native American).
reply —
I think I understand that. I was born in Okmulgee, Ok, the capital city of the Creek Nation. There, there are many bi and tri racial people. The Creek and Seminoles integrated more with Blacks in the early days than just about any other tribes in the southeast. Okmulgee is full of mixed blood people, both bi and tri racial.
But I was raised in SW Oklahoma, where the main tribes are Kiowa, Comanche, Southern Cheyenne, Fort Sill Apache and Apache Tribe of Oklahoma. Anyone who looks like me wouldn’t dare say they are “Indian” here unless they expected to get laughed out of town. You just say, “Oh, I have a little Indian blood” and leave it at that. Honesty and modesty are expected, accepted & respected. Braggin’ ain’t.
I once was drinking a beer in a bar in Lawton, Oklahoma (today I seldom drink alcohol) and a local full-blood walked up to me and stared at me for a good minute then finally said in a fairly loud voice, “What the hell are you!!?”
Some full bloods don’t like mixed bloods at all. That’s the reality I was raised in. I don’t recall my reply to him exactly, but what ever it was I said jokingly, and I was just as loud as he was as I didn’t dare sound weak, then I got up and left the place . . . before he reacted. So I know what you mean about snide remarks.
When I first got online and saw people who were basically White with maybe a little Indian blood (even less than me) calling themselves “Indian,” well I couldn’t believe it. How dare they? I thought “wannabe” — you UNDERSTATE things humbly, you don’t say it as tho you are BRAGGING, you don’t OVERSTATE. Yup, an Indian would know not to do that.
So in my mind they were “wannabes” initially. It is the difference in the reality I was raised in, and the reality they were raised in.
I heard them say “either you are Indian or you are not. If you are “part” Indian, what part is it, as tho it was a “sin” to be mixed. Today I am more accustomed & aculturated to hearing people talk like that. But I’ll always be “mixed” no matter whether someone wants me to claim one race over the other or not.
Don’t know if this helped any, prob’ly didn’t. 🙂 Well at least you see we are all confused about that same thing . . . and that confusion wil probly change some, but it won’t ever go away.
vance
Tommy,
I’d love to see it. I’ve never seen anything like that, but I have heard or read of such papers.
thanks
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