[aileen12696]

Dear All –

I have been enjoying reading this forum as a guest, and am excited to join in the conversation. I am descended from Amos Collins from Clay County, KY (b. 1796 in VA), through his son Freelin, and through Freelin’s daughter Sylvania (I have seen others post on this site with an Amos connection, and we can’t seem to go any further than Amos). My knowledge of his Saponi roots is entirely based on what others have claimed online, although it certainly makes sense in terms of name and location.

I feel particularly connected to this line of my family, because it is one of the few of which I possess any oral history (my grandfather helped to raise me, Slyvania was his grandmother). He described her as “tough as nails.” She walked to Indiana behind a wagon train, bore twelve children, and according to my grandfather, grew her own tobacco and smoked a pipe! I have traced this family heritage through the census records, but can’t get beyond 1830 (normal, I know).

Because I feel so connected to these ancestors, I am really eager to know more of their history and context (I’m sure many of you have had the same experience). I would welcome any clues anyone has to help me in my search. 🙂

A few general questions…I appear to have that crazy anatolian bump and I also believe I have “shovel teeth.” Are these indicators really a good marker of Melungeon ancestry, or is that more myth? I haven’t found a lot of good info. on “physical” markers, so it would be interesting to hear your thoughts (maybe I just haven’t found the right thread?)

Also, just in general, at what point did everyone finally decide there was enough evidence (circumstantial or otherwise) to truly feel comfortable declaring you have Saponi/Melungeon ancestry? I know that Collins is a common Saponi name, but is that enough? I’m sure you all have different personal ideas about this, but I would be interested to hear your opinions.

The rest of my ancestry is a crazy mix of everything, mostly English, German, and Polish, with a little French thrown in. I have found this possible Saponi connection to be wonderfully compelling. One of my ancestors is one of the original founders of Jamestown…what a strange, terrible and wonderful irony if my ancestors came from both “sides” of the brutal and brave beginnings of Colonial America.

Thanks for your time! 🙂 Aileen in Arizona

[collins]

This response is partly for aileen12696 and partly for the board as a whole.

Several pieces of evidence, which constitute proof, convinced me that our Collins family was Saponi. The first was the connection made by “Melungeon” researchers in migrations and areas that our Collins lines are found and the mirroring of those migrations and records to our Collins lines and the Saponi. Another key piece of evidence can be found in the Orange County court case listing at least two Collins men, namely John Collins and John Collins Jr. They can be followed through records to North Carolina on “Indian Lands” and “Saponi Cabins” and the same men arrested again, same charges, in North Carolina. Military records also help corroborate the information in the census and court. The research done on “Melungeons” invariably uncovered Saponi ancestry thru census, court, land, and church records for the Collins family. Perhaps the most convincing piece of evidence is the letter written by Ethnologist Robert K. Thomas to Mrs. Stollard. Robert K. Thomas was an ethnologist that did field work to document Native communities. He was also a tribal member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. His letter is pretty clear that our Collins family is Saponi. Ethnographers tend be more credible especially the ones that worked for the government as he did.

So far, I have read at least five dissertations for PhD. candidates on our family and most of the “Melungeon” books that have been written invariably speak about our Collins family. Dissertations are written by doctorate candidates for their PhD. certifications. The dissertations are put under scrutiny for accuracy. If the PhD. candidate boards found the dissertations to be inadequate then the candidate would have to continue researching and re-writing the dissertation to resubmit. I highly doubt that any of the candidates that based their academic careers on the information they obtained would lie or present falsehoods, nor could they and be certified.

DNA testing has been a very good identifier for relatedness. I know for my line that your Amos line is related based on the Collins DNA tests that have been run. These tests all connect the Old Thomas Collins lines together and we know that John Collins was the son of Old Thomas. Old Thomas had a brother named William Collins and I am in contact with that branch of the family as well, not to be confused with the Colonial William Collins of Nansemond County, VA.

The Carmel Community and the Saylersville Indians of Kentucky have been shown through DNA and research to be connected by blood. (See Dr. Richard Carlson’s dissertation “Who’s Your People”, University of Michigan and also the Collins DNA Study)

There are some physical characteristics that can’t be denied. They are noted in the actual records. The “Anatolian Bump” has been perhaps over stated on occasion. It is true that every human being has a cranial ridge and a cranial bump. It is part of human anatomy; however there is forensic evidence that supports the claim that some Native American groups have a more pronounced cranial bump as a marker for identification of remains, as well dental pronouncements such as shovel teeth and doubling of the dental root. Skull shape can also be a marker. Any that wish to argue the point needs to go research forensic identification of skeletal remains and then come back here and report on how forensic doctors distinguish the races. You’ll find the evidence in that course of texts.

On the topic of Brent Kennedy, although some even here like to brow beat the man, if it were not for his efforts many people would not have dug or found the real answers that his work touched on. Many times, people try to read things into what he has written, and they need to step back and go re-read what he wrote. He never claimed to have the answers or for that matter that he was the right man to answer all the questions concerning his own heritage, but at least he tried and he inspired many researchers to dig deeper and in places they wouldn’t have otherwise. The “Melungeons” are in many ways just a myth. The word is simple to define not complex. It was a pejorative labeling a mixed race group often used to denigrate and not as a tribal or a racial community designation. The use only applied, for the most part, to the Newman Ridge and Clinch Valley areas and from there out ward as ALL (melungeon or not) the people in those areas migrated out taking the use of the word with them. Think of it like the word potato. Some say potato, some say tater, some say spud. The point being is that a word, especially a slang word, starts in a centralized area and spreads out from there. The same thing happened with the word melungeon.

The claims of the Haliwa, Occaneechi, High Plains Sappony, and any others are based on the same evidence which shows the Collins family to be Saponi. Can any evidence ever pass for 100% proof? No way, in fact there is no conclusion for any argument or issue that can be proven 100%. I would say that the Collins family not only has circumstantial evidence, but also government recorded evidence that proves this heritage out for this family to the same degree, if not more, than any other Saponi family. Here is a quote from Dr. Heriberto Airy Dixon, he said, “The Collins family is the most documented Saponi family of all Saponi people.” (per letter recieved in 2002 and 2006, stated twice)

Our families are a mix, especially in modern times. There were good and bad things done to whites and Indians, both sides to blame for misdeeds done, murders, rapes, brutality. Both sides also shared a lot of good, like love, compassion, humanity, and hospitality. You’ll hear a lot of hogwash about “the good red road”, “the white man’s ways”, “the Indian way”, and non-sense like that, but do not buy into it. When it comes down to it everybody lives their lives the best they can and in a modern era there is really no distinction between the races in how we all live or believe. Everybody puts their underwear on the same way, eats the same way, prays to some unseen force for aid, and tries to look out for family and close friends. There are no real or significant differences and we truly are all the same.

Trying to save something of our ancestors past is not about reliving it or regression, it’s about honoring their courage and sacrifices, learning about the culture that helped shape us, and possibly righting any wrongs that we may be able to rectify.

[collins]

Also another set of evidence is family oral traditions. My line in particular pasted down the word for themselves as Pony Indians which is obviously a distant remembering of Sa-poni. Another term passed down in my line is Pawnese which is a word connected to the Indian slave trade used to describe all Indian slaves. These were words passed down from generation to generation without the influence of modern day Saponi or “Melungeon” research. Their use in our family predates the 1900’s. The understanding of the meaning is simply what has come to light in the research done across the past two decades.

[aileen12696]

Dear Collins –

Thank you thank you for sharing your knowledge and understanding of the Collins family and the Saponi in general. I am already learning so much and was both informed and inspired by your words. I only wish I had more information to share with you! I can tell you that my grandfather was extremely proud of his family and always emphasized what good people they were. Decades later, he remembered his grandparents as people who were brave, gentle, and kind, despite their toughness. My grandfather, Amos M. Dalton (who I believe was named for his g-grandfather, Amos Collins), was the most generous man I have ever known, and my family is still reaping the benefits of the love of these past generations. That is really the most profound legacy any of us can hope to leave our descendants. By knowing more about my own ancestors, I hope to honor them by remembering their names, and thanking them for the gifts of my own life. I especially appreciated your comments that all of our ancestors, whatever their heritage, were just people, who loved and bled and laughed and cared for their children.

A few quick questions, if you don’t mind, since I am so new to all of this…You mentioned a Thomas Sr. Collins, with a son John. Is this John the father of Amos? I hadn’t been able to determine for sure Amos’ parentage, but I also have just begun my research. I really appreciated all of the other background you provided on the Collins’. Is there another place where I can read more? Thank you again, Aileen

[aileen12696]

Dear Collins –

I have found the thread where you discuss in detail John, Thomas etc. Wow! You have done a lot of work on your ancestry. It is quite impressive, and I thank you for being so generous with sharing your insights. 🙂 Aileen

[yellow woman]

Well said Collins. My husband and I together have been doing genealogy for about 10 years now. {my husband a lot longer.} It was my husband that kept coming back to this site through the years. For some reson when he kept looking into my Collins branches he ended up back at Saponi town. Thanks for putting things in perspective. Heyapi! {it is said.}

[sammarroq]

Some good discussion here…my direct line is Gibson, but as most of you know these two families intermarried, on more than one occasion.

I think that if you have been “led” here, through ancestral search…you are probably in the right place:)

My journey has been just that, being led…it is not always easy, and can be down right frustrating at times. However, as I have shared in the past, the truth will unveil itself…we need only wait patiently.

Shirley

[aileen12696]

Wise words, Shirley. I am very excited to continue my research and to continue to learn from all of you! Aileen

[Dreaminghawk]

Aileen,

Welcome to Saponitown. I am a Dalton and my Daltons have been Virginia indians since the late 1600s. Your Dalton line is likely mixed blood if they originated in Va or WVA.

[Dreaminghawk]

I should have added another point. Most of the seekers at Saponitown come here seeking answers on one specific line but are surprised to find that most of their lines are mixed bloods….. our people seemed to have some kind of sixth sense for finding and falling in love with others like themselves. It has kept the Va/NC indian blood strong for about 14 generations since contact.

[beeleaf]

Old Thomas had a brother named William Collins and I am in contact with that branch of the family as well, not to be confused with the Colonial William Collins of Nansemond County, VA.

Thanks for the info, Collins. Is there research available on the William Collins line that I might could read?

[beeleaf]

…our people seemed to have some kind of sixth sense for finding and falling in love with others like themselves.

Yah, Bro’, you got that right!

;~)

[aileen12696]

Dear Dreaminghawk and All –

Thanks for all of your information. I have been enjoying reading your articles on the Saponi and am already feeling much more connected to this part of my heritage. Regarding the Daltons…I am actually uncertain as to where they lived before they came to Indiana. I am stuck at Samuel Hyson Dalton, who evidently was a pioneering (with one-leg!) schoolteacher in Indiana. I am not sure who his father was nor where they came from, although VA is certainly a possibility. Have a great day, everyone! Aileen

[collins]

On William Collins’s line you may want to get with Ga-Nc Collins on it.

Also I wanted to piont out an exception here on farensic cranial bump observation. In tribes that cradel-boarded their infants; in such cases the bump is flatened as the baby grows older.

One other exception I wanted to add in here about Kennedy,my reading of his work is limited to his book Melungeons: A Resurection of a Proud People. Anything new he may have come out with after that I have not read. I have read Galagos, Johnson, Ball, and the one Bill sent me. Frankly, beyond the material that pertains to Native Americans I’m not too interested in any of the other “possible” admixtures. Not to say they aren’t important, much like Dreaminghawk has said we have to pick our battles wisely and for me all the other possiblilities are endless or lead down roads that others are working out.

I’ve stated this before, but it bares repeating. The ONLY thing that ties all tri-racial communities/undocumented Native communities/”melungeon”etc. is their Native American Indian heritage. Outside of that Natives intermarried with everyone and traveled far and wide.

[aileen12696]

I agree Collins! I will have to check out those books…I’m learning so much. It seems like Portuguese mixtures, etc, are pretty tenuous, if interesting. I have recently been in contact with a cousin in Florida who sent me a book about her family, including some of the same geneaology information I have about Amos Collins, etc. One notable difference is that she lists Amos Collins (father of John Gilbert, Freelin, etc.) as married to a Minerva (I had previously seen Mariel, Marie, Muriel as possibilities). Minerva appears to be a family name, so it makes more sense…She also confirmed the oral tradition of a Saponi heritage. She also shared the story that Freelin Huyson Collins (b. 1817) was married to a Hannah Stevens, who was Cherokee. Which leads me to the question…were there Cherokee living in Appalachia during the early 19th century? My history of the Cherokee is certainly hazy, but I always thought they came from further in the South. Hope you all have a great weekend! 🙂 Aileen

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