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I was hoping to get some input about court records on the Saponi people. I know of the one in 1742 Orange county, VA.
I have read that there is another in August 1728 Brunswick county, VA.
Is there another one in N.C. or VA in the Grayson County, VA area or surrounding counties between 1743 and 1760?
Hi collins,
What kind of input are you looking for?
Brenda used to have a timeline on her website that had the information you have listed. I believe she said she got it from Haithcock’s book. It was at: http://members.xoom.com/BJ_Dillon/natime.htm But, the link doesn’t work. I thought some of it was posted on here at one time, but I didn’t see it after a quick search.
Here is one that was on the front page…
http://www.saponitown.com/timeline.htm
You might also try this link…
http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/split/report47b.html
Stacey
I’m writing an essay for my English Composition I class and am trying to make sure that I had my sources correct on the court cases. The one in Orange County, VA is pretty well covered, however I am unclear about the one in Brunswick County where several Saponi were put in jail. I think the Brunswick County instance was the one just prior to the Saponi migrating south to the Catawba. I seem to remember talk about another court case some where in the vicinity of North Carolina and Virginia in the area of Montgomery/Grayson counties and Ashe and Allegany counties North Carolina which precipitated a move to the New River area of North Carolina. (Wilkes County)
Hi collins,
I know you said that you had this one pretty much covered, but I thought I would go ahead and post it just for completeness.
Note that I got this one from Brenda’s timeline and the Orange Co., VA Order Book was her reference. (Orange Co..VA Order Book 3 1741-1743. 309) Orange Co Va Microfilm Reel 31, Va State Archives.
27 Jan 1742 Orange County, Virginia: Thursday the XXVIIth day of January MDCCXLIII “Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manicassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack. Indians being brought before the court by precept under the hands and seals of Wm Russell & Edward Spencer, Gent. for terrifying one Lawrence Strother and on suspicion of stealing hoggs……..” The above put up security individually. It was ordered that their guns be taken from them till they are ready to depart out of this county, “they having declared their intentions to the Court to depart this colony within a week”
Excerpt from…
A history of Orange County, Virginia : from its formation in 1734 (o.s.) to the end of Reconstruction in 1870 : compiled mainly [database on-line]. Provo, UT: The Generations Network, Inc., 2005. Original data: Scott, W. W.. A history of Orange County, Virginia : from its formation in 1734 (o.s.) to the end of Reconstruction in 1870 : compiled mainly from original records, with a brief sketch of the beginnings of Virginia, a summary of local events to 1907, and a map. Richmond, Va.: E. Waddey Co., 1907. Page 56a.
1742. Sundry Indians, among them Manincassa, Captain Tom, Blind Tom, Foolish Zack, and Little Zack, were before Court for “terrifying” one Lawrence Strother, who testified that one of them shot at him, that they tried to surround him, that he turned his horse and rid off, but they gained on him till he crossed the run. Ordered, that the Indians be taken into custody by the sheriff until they give peace bonds with security, and that their guns be taken from them until they are ready to depart out of this Colony, they having declared their intention to depart within a week. They gave bond.
Stacey
Excerpt from The Siouan Tribes of the East by James Mooney. Published in 1894. Page 50.
In regard to the hanging of this Saponi chief and the general interference of the whites in the quarrels of the Indians, additional information is gathered from a document of 1728. From this it appears that some Saponi delegates went to the Catawba to bring back a hundred of them to demand satisfaction of the English for imprisoning their men. They also threatened that if a certain Captain Tom was hanged they would remove their women and children across the Roanoke and would then drive the whites beyond the James. Another one told the white man that the English had no business to come to the fort to concern themselves about the indians killing one another (V.S.P., 2).
Note that V.S.P. refers to:
VIRGINIA. Colonial Virginia state papers and other manuscripts, preserved in the capitol at Richmond. Arranged and edited by William Plummer, M.D., under authority of the legislature of Virginia. Vol i, Richmond, 1875. 120. (Abbreviated V.S.P.)
1, Document of 1709, vol. i, pp. 131-2;
2, Document of 1828, vol. i, p. 215
There are two additional excerpts (one from Byrd and one from History of Pittsylvania County, VA) in this thread:
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1809
See posts #5 through #7
collins,
Could this have been the other one that you were thinking of?
Excerpt from…
A history of Orange County, Virginia : from its formation in 1734 (o.s.) to the end of Reconstruction in 1870 : compiled mainly [database on-line]. Provo, UT: The Generations Network, Inc., 2005. Original data: Scott, W. W.. A history of Orange County, Virginia : from its formation in 1734 (o.s.) to the end of Reconstruction in 1870 : compiled mainly from original records, with a brief sketch of the beginnings of Virginia, a summary of local events to 1907, and a map. Richmond, Va.: E. Waddey Co., 1907. Page 56a.
In 1730, “William Bohannon came into court and made oath that about twenty-six of the Sapony Indians that inhabit Colonel Spotswood’s land in Fox’s neck go about and do a great deal of mischief by firing the woods; more especially on the 17th day of April last whereby several farrows of pigs were burnt in their beds, and that he verily believes that one of the Indians shot at him the same day, the bullet entering a tree within four feet of him; that he saw the Indian about one hundred yards from his gun stood in a stooping manner very studdy (steady) so that he could hardly discern him from a stump, that he has lost more of his pigs than usual since the coming of the said Indians; which is ordered to be certified to the General Assembly”.
Stacey
Thanks Stacey.23 that is the one I was thinking of and if memory serves me correctly isn’t that the same one that Mahenip and several other Saponi leaders were in court for?
You know….I’ve never looked at the exerpts together…..
I think this proves that the Collins, Griffin, Bowling, Machartoon, was without doubt Saponi….
::27 Jan 1742 Orange County, Virginia: Thursday the XXVIIth day of January MDCCXLIII “Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manicassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack. Indians being brought before the court by precept under the hands and seals of Wm Russell & Edward Spencer, Gent. for terrifying one Lawrence Strother and on suspicion of stealing hoggs……..” The above put up security individually. It was ordered that their guns be taken from them till they are ready to depart out of this county, “they having declared their intentions to the Court to depart this colony within a week”
In regard to the hanging of this Saponi chief and the general interference of the whites in the quarrels of the Indians, additional information is gathered from a document of 1728. From this it appears that some Saponi delegates went to the Catawba to bring back a hundred of them to demand satisfaction of the English for imprisoning their men. They also threatened that if a certain Captain Tom was hanged they would remove their women and children across the Roanoke and would then drive the whites beyond the James. Another one told the white man that the English had no business to come to the fort to concern themselves about the indians killing one another (V.S.P., 2). ::
That John bowling also just adds to the proof…since the Bolling family was known Powhatan…..and we already know some of the Recorded Saponi words was borrowed from the Powhatan.
This may be further proven with how William collins’ daughter Susannah ended up in York county and Rutherford county…..2 known Catawba locations……may even be the reason the families went to Orange county NC…..one of the tribes in occaneechi town was found to have been one of the Catawba tribes.
When you add in the fact that the Monacan Confederacy, Tutelo-Saponi Confederacy, and Catawba Confederacy were all congressing together through out Amanishuck (piedmont regions) it seems that correct tribal designations get very murky. Joe, you post some really interesting things to ponder.
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