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Forest Hazel wrote: I think it is important to keep in mind that the names on this list are, for the most part, common names, and the mere fact that one of them appears in a family tree does not, in and of itself, demonstrate Saponi, or even Indian ancestry. Not every individual found in a historical record with one of these surnames is necessarily Indian. Haithcock, for example, while considered to be Indian by the Occaneechi Tribe when found in connection with the ancestral community in old Brunswick county, Virginia, is never, to our knowledge, identified in a early contemporary record as Saponi, or Indian. ( with the exception of Ohio ex rel. James Jeffyres v. Cedarville Board of Education in 1880, and then only by extension) The same is true for many of the names on this list.
Not trying to be a wet blanket here, just saying that perhaps a disclaimer is in order, particularly for the benefit of those who are just beginning to look into their own family histories.
I am in the process of compiling a list of individual surnames counted on some official document as Indian prior to 1900 in Virginia and North Carolina. Hopefully it will be of some use to researchers when complete ( if such a work could ever be truely complete)
Hi Forest,
I was wondering if you would post or would be willing to email the names you have compiled. I am trying to put the pieces of my family together and rule in or out my Gibson’s as Saponi. Thanks much.
Shirley
Hey Shirley….I remember having seen a number of references to “Foolish Jack” and “Blind Tom” that you linked froma prior post of Brenda’s…and when I looked in my notes I did have a few references/links…it appears that many of those men listed as Saponi in Brenda’s list can be located at the following URL: http://www.theinternetfoundation.org/family/WarOf1812.htm
Some of the notes and sources include the following:
“Ancestors of Robert Leon Atkins – General Notes: Calloway Collins told the reporter Will Allen Dromgoole in the 1890 interview on Newman Ridge. “The Collins and Gibsons were living as Indians in Virginia before they migrated to North Carolina.” + The Indian tribe was not named and has not been factually proven, but the important part, moving from Virginia to North Carolina has been proven by deeds from all these areas, beginning on the Pamunkey River in Louisa County, Virginia. Orange County, Virginia Order Book 3 record 1741-43 “Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manincassa, Capt Tom, Isaac, Harry, blind tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack, Indians being bought before the court for stealing Hogs. , Ordered that their Guns be taken away from them till they are ready to depart of this county, they having declared their intentions to depart this colony within a week.”. On pages 309-312 of Court Record book the above named men individually put up security.4 + This party of Saponia ( Monasukapanough) Indians left that county and some of these may have been the same group that formed the settlement near Hillsborough, North Carolina in 1750. It appears from Granville and Orange County tax records that a John Collins arrived in the area about this time. John Collins lived on the Flat River for about 17 years then moved to the New River circa 1767. Land and court records reveal they settled land on Peach Bottom Creek. This area became Grayson County, Virginia in 1793. Tax records from Grayson County, Virginia reveals that Lewis and James Collins were likely sons of John Collins. “James Collins, John Bolin, and Mike Bolin Indians from Blackwater, Newman Ridge, were named by Sneedville attorney Lewis M. Jarvis in 1903, as quite full blooded who fought in the War of 1812-1814″. 5 Another Indian family Moses and Mary , Ridley, Riddle are on these same Granville and Orange County, North Carolina tax lists, identified as mulattoes on the 1755 tax list in Orange County, North Carolina. Moses was closely associated with Charles Gibson, Thomas Gibson Sr & Jr, Thomas Collins and Joseph Collins. Several Collins, Bolling and others with related Melungeon names still live in this area today which is Person County, North Carolina.”
(Source: located June 2006 from URL above).
Also, many of these names were mentioned in the Melungeon Heritage Association’s 2nd union, URL to read some of the shared data can be located at URL: http://www.melungeon.org/index.cgi?&CONTEXT=cat&cat=10144
An exerpt: “A. Surnames gleaned from published works of various researchers – a lengthy list
B. Northern Neck surnames later found in Orange County, Virginia
1. McCarty/McCartian, Bolin/Bowline, Indian Harry, Griffin, Collins
2. Reference Orange County Virginia court 27 January 1742/3 “Alexander Machartoon*, John Bowling,, Manincassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack, Indians being brought before the Court …….for terrifying one Lawrence Strother & on suspicion of stealing hoggs…..” “
(Source: located June 2006, DO above URL)
Jack Goins also makes mention of these men on his webite at URL:
http://www.jgoins.com/emhistory.htm
He quotes the same initial source and it too states that these men were Saponi as such: ““Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manincassa, Capt Tom, Isaac, Harry, blind tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack, Indians being bought before the court for stealing Hogs., Ordered that their Guns be taken away from them till they are ready to depart of this county, they having declared their intentions to depart this colony within a week.” (On pages 309-312 of Court Record book the above named men individually put up security. This party of Saponia ( Monasukapanough) Indians left that county (Orange County, Va., Order Book 3, 1741-43)”
(Source: located June 2006 from J. Goins website , URL above).
Simon Jeffries et al are also mentioned at a site I located awhile back, URL: http://www.occaneechi-saponi.org/history_2.html
Another very neat site that links some of these names and Ocaneechi/Saponi historically can be located at URL:
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/shades/nativeamericans/occaneechi.htm
These are but just a few informative links and may to some measure assist in identifying some sources for some of the men in Brenda’s “list”. Blessings~~~Laurie
Hi Laurie,
Thanks for the reply and the information, I will check out the links you provided; this may get me headed in the right direction.:)
Thanks,
Shirley
Laurie,
Thanks for the posting. I have a MaCartney who was born in this area, who we think must have been at least mixed. She was known to carry jugs on her head.
Techteach
Hello folks, well from what I can see of all these names the only one that bears any similarity to a non english name is “Manincassa” which looks oddly spanish aswell, any one good with Spanish ? Manan Cassa”?
If its a Native word then we need to do some looking into several aboriginal languages!
**Can anyone state for sure that the men listed in Jack Goin’s work are really from ” Monasukapanough”?**
Tom wrote: Hello folks, well from what I can see of all these names the only one that bears any similarity to a non english name is “Manincassa” which looks oddly spanish aswell, any one good with Spanish ? Manan Cassa”?
If its a Native word then we need to do some looking into several aboriginal languages!
**Can anyone state for sure that the men listed in Jack Goin’s work are really from ” Monasukapanough”?**
Hey Tom,
My husband is Hispanic…Manincassa does not light any bulbs…
Shirley
Wow folks….I found this informative and interesting bit at of all places, a “MySpace” blog…on a discussion about Religion and Mormons…very interesting…the author is a fellow named Barry Carter, the entire blog in it’s entirety can be read at URL:
http://blog.myspace.com/pchylla
To quote the section about the Saponi and Ocaneechi etc:
“Tuesday, December 26, 2006
Saponi/Tutelo (Yésah) History and Timeline
Current mood: focused
Saponi/Tutelo (Yésah)
History and Timeline
By Barry Carter (my cousin)
December 7, 2001
Yésah Indians
Cape Fear, Catawba, Cheraw, Eno, Keyauwee, Saponi, Shakori, Sissipahaw, Waccamaw, Wateree, Waxhaw, Woccon, Appomattox, Monasukapanough, Occoneechee, Totero, Saponi, Stukena, Monacan, Cheraw, Sissaphaw, Metiponski, Saxapaha, Sutaree, Sugah, Pedee, Quiawae, Chacee, Nahyssans, Manahoacs.
Below is info from the Tutelo video documentary, Mecklenburg County history book Life on the Roaring Roanoke and the book Brunswick County VA 1720-1975 and other named sources:
When you read something with Saponi history pass it on. Some of the reports may not have as good sources as we’d like. However, as we piece together this puzzle even these may play an important role.
Located somewhere near Lynchburg. Earliest known settlement is on the banks of the Rivanna in Albemarle County, just north of the University of Virginia. I believe the above is in reference to the Saponi.
On September 1, 1661 Thomas Batts and Abraham Wood led an expedition from Fort Henry to Totero town. They headed due west from Fort Henry which I believe was near Petersburg. Four days into the trip they came to a Saponi Village. This would put Saponi Town near Appomattox County VA. On Sept 9 they came to Totero Town located where present day Salem Va. is located.
The Saponi tribe also known as the Monasukapanough tribe. Between 1650 and 1660 they moved southwest to the Otter Creek area. In 1670 they were visited by Lederer and in 1671 by Thomas Batts. (((The Saponi tribe also known as the Monasukapanough tribe. Between 1650 and 1660 they moved southwest to the Otter Creek area. In 1670 they were visited by Lederer and in 1671 by Thomas Batts. After this they moved with the Tutelo to the junction of the Staunton and Dan Rivers, where each occupied an island on the Roanoke River in Mecklenburg County. In 1701 they again moved south to present day Salisbury, North Carolina, both moves were to prevent attacks from the Iroquis. They again moved, this time toward the white settlements establishing themselves 15 miles west of Windsor North Carolina. A little while later Governor Spottswood placed them and the Tutelo and other tribes near Gholsonville in Brunswick County. Most of the Indians moved north into Pennsylvania after the Iroquis signed the Albany Treaty. One band as late as 1756 remained in North Carolina, it comprised only 14 men and 14 woman, it was later adopted by the Iroquis. Those that had left for Pennsylvania remained there until 1778, locating themselves on the upper waters of the Susquehanna River. Most of the tribe then moved north to Ithaca New York, before moving on to Canada.)))) VaHistory75@CS.com http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
In 1672 the Saponi and Tutelo banded together and moved to Clarksville Va with the Occaneechi on islands adjacent to Occaneechi Island. (Video) The Tutelo were on the island above the Occaneechi and the Saponi was on the Island below the Occaneechi. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
[additional source] After this they moved with the Tutelo to the junction of the Staunton and Dan Rivers, where each occupied an island on the Roanoke River in Mecklenburg County. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
1675 Bacon rebellion
At some point after the Bacon battle the Occaneechi moved to Hillsborough NC on the Eno river.
1680 – Nine tribes signed the Treaty of Middle plantation making them tributary Indians dependant upon the king of England.
1681 Seneca Indians had a battle with the Occaneechi on Occaneechi Island and lost the Island to the Seneca (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
1682 Occaneechi seen North of Occaneechi Island and planning to move again this year (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
In 1700 the Saponi and Tutelo moved North of Emporia VA to the Fort on Three Creeks on the Merrhin River. (video)
1701 The John Lawson visits the Occaneechi on the Eno river near Hillsborough NC. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
1701 The Saponi and Tutelo were on the Yadkin River. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). The Saponi and Tutelo moved to Salisbury NC on the Yadkin river. (video)
In 1701 they (Saponi and Tutelo ) again moved south to present day Salisbury, North Carolina, both moves were to prevent attacks from the Iroquis. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
Some Saponi (Sapponys, the Occaneches, and Steukenhocks) moved to Cliffs of the Neuse in Wayne Co NC. “This People is now made up of the Remnant of Several other Nations, of which the most considerable is the Sapponys, the Occaneches, and Steukenhocks, who not finding themselves Separately Numerous, enough for their Defence, have agreed to unite into one Body, and all of them go under the name of Sapponys.” http://www.oldekinstongazette.com/clifneus.htm
1701 Douglas Rights notes in his volume “The American Indian in North Carolina,” that in 1701, the Saponi and Tutelo, seeking strength in number, had moved together to Bertie County, a farther reach of Tuscarora territory. http://www.oldekinstongazette.com/clifneus.htm
They again moved, this time toward the white settlements establishing themselves 15 miles west of Windsor North Carolina. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm The Occaneechi, Saponi and Tutelo moved to Saponitown near Winsdor NC (Indian Woods).
In 1708 the Saponi moved South of Emporia VA to Unotie. In 1711 the Occaneechi joined them and in 1712 the Tutelo joined them as well.
1709 some of the Occaneechi, Saponi and Tutelo moved to Saponitown near Winsdor NC (Indian Woods). (Video ) Called Sapona on P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke
1709 Some moved to Surry County Va (next county to the East of Petersburg) (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
By 1712 The Stukanox, Occaneechi, Saponi and Tutelo had moved to a tract of land on the Meherrin River east of Fort Christanna in Mecklenburg Co. or Brunswick Co. P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
By 1712, North Carolina offered them terms to help fight the fierce Tuscarora, in return for a promised Albemarle relocation. [It seems that they helped defeat the Tuscarora at Fort Neoroka in Snow Hill NC. http://www.oldekinstongazette.com/clifneus.htm
1714 they became tributary Indians. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
In 1714 the Occaneechi, Saponi, Eno, Stuckanocks, Totero (Tutelo) moved to Fort Christanna in Lawrenceville, Va. All Indian at Ft Christanna from this point on called Saponi. . (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). (P 17Brunswick Co VA). In 1714 the Occaneechi, Saponi and Tutelo moved to Fort Christanna in Lawrenceville, Va. (Video) In 1720 some were still in the area. They moved with the Catawba to South Carolina and quickly came back to Ft Christanna.
The Nottaway and Meherrins had lands reserved on the North Side of the river but would not come.
1717 Eleven Catawba Indian children were sent to the fort to be educated.
1718 the Fort Closed. (P29 Brunswick Co VA)
In 1720 some were still in the area (video). For at least 15 years after the fort closed (until at least 1732) some Indians remained at FC. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke).
1721 Chickasaw Indians from N. Mississippi visited the fort in Oct 1721
In 1722 there came peace with the Iroquois (Video). During this time they were being attacked by the Tuscaroras of NC. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke).
They moved with the Catawba in South Carolina and quickly came back to Ft Christanna. Video
1727, October The Catawbas made hostile overtures and “designed to take position of the fort in which there were several Catawbas. . (P29 Brunswick Co VA)
1728 Indians still on FC land when Byrd sent huntsmen on the Dividing Line expedition. (P29 Brunswick Co VA)
1729 Moved to South Carolina with Catawbas. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
1731 August four Saponi killed by Nottoway while working on Colonel Robert Munford’s plantation in FC area. (Brunswick Co Book)
1732 Returned to Va and given the right to settle other lands (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
Around 1740 many Saponi and Tutelo went North. Occaneechi not mentioned (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). (P30 Brunswick Co VA)
*see part2*
Part 2, contd:
“12 May 1742, Orange Co..Va, reference to “about twenty-six of the Saponi Indians that inhabit on “Colonel Spotswood’s land. Charles Griffin had been a white man who taught school in the Saponi Indian town at Fort Christiana from January 1715 NS to the spring of 1718. From Linda’s post.
Some individuals likely remained. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke).
[additional source] Saponi and Tutelo moved North to Penn and many stayed in Brunswick Co. Video
The Great Occaneechi trading path shifted from Clarksville about 30 miles down stream to a place called Moniseep. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). Looking on a map this would be Roanoke Rapids. THIS COULD TIE INTO CRYSTAL’S COMMUNITY OR THE HALIWA-SAPONI.
1744 They were in Shomikin Penn.
Next they moved to Skorgori Village in Cataeissa Penn.
In 1753 some moved to Tioga Penn
Around 1753 John Yates/Yeatts built the first blockhouse in the Shenandoah Valley region of Virginia, now the Yates Tavern in Gretna, listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This became a waystation on the much traveled Wagon Road to North Carolina, which corresponded with the Great Indian Warpath for much of its length. The blockhouse’s purpose was to protect the Indians in nearby Saponi-Town and a nucleus of pioneer families of what became Pittsylvania County from hostile Indians, chiefly the Cherokee and Shawnee. Some of the surnames are Yates, Winn , Sizemore, Adkins, Shelton , Gregory, Tapley, etc. This documents that the Saponi had become “fort Indians” with many intermarriages with the Virginians and at least one of their towns was about ten miles NE of present-day Danville in the 1750s. In the courthouse records of Pittsylvania Co. you will find many taxpayers, slave owners and landowners who are also registered as “Indian” or “Free Colored.” Most of these are likely Saponi. Submitted by Don Panther-Yates – dpanther@gasou.edu
1769 Some Indians still in the Fort Christanna area. (P30 Brunswick Co VA)
As late as the year 1775 the author James Adair reported that the Saponi Nation was still living in Southside Virginia.
The Fort Christanna Saponi-Occoneechee Indian Tribe has oral history and family genealogy, of Siouan Indian ancestry, going back to 1775 and before, with people still living on the reservation land, from that time until today.”
Neat read. Blessings~~~Laurie
I googled Manicassa, here is what I found.
eBay: History of Orange County Virginia genealogy (item 5570817209 …
… Lung, Lynch, Lyne, Lyon, Mackenny, Macon, Madison, Madisons, Magruder, Mahanes, Mahone, Mallory, Manincassa, Mann, Mannen, Manning, Mansfield, Manspile, …
cgi.ebay.com/History-of-Orange-County-Virginia-genealogy_W0QQitemZ5570817209QQihZ007QQcategoryZ20931QQcmd… – 72k –
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-BOOKS/2006-12/1165505366
Another link with Manincassa and the others can be found at the link below
A HISTORY OF ORANGE COUNTY, VIRGINIA
From its Formation in 1734 (O. S.) to the end of Reconstruction in 1870 ; compiled mainly from Original Records
With a Brief Sketch of the Beginnings of Virginia, a Summary of Local Events to 1907, and a Map
By W. W. SCOTT
.State Law Librarian, Member of the State Historical
.Society, and for ten years State Librarian
of Virginia
RICHMOND, VA.
EVERRETT WADDEY CO.
http://www.newrivernotes.com/va/oran1.htm
excerpt: Sundry Indians, among them Manincassa, Captain Tom, Blind Tom, Foolish Zack, and Little Zack, were before Court for “terrifying” one Lawrence Strother, …
Shirley
Just found this link today and it too is a fab read…discussing the Blackfeet and Saponi etc…even makes mention of site member Richard Haithcock. URL:
http://cherokeeblackfeetcultural.bizopiaweb.com/Default.aspx?tabid=668470
Enjoy~~~Laurie
Laurie;
Just to say I read you posts today on Saponi Names and found them all to be quite informative as were the url’s you posted.as for me gal, I say keep up the good work as I always enjoy your information which has been a big help to me in my researching my genealogical line, the coles, bowmans, collins, gibsons,goins etc.
as always
Aubrey G Cole
Hello Aubrey…thanks so much darlin…you make digging genealogy with you ever so fun and interesting…love and hugs to you and the rest of the family. Blessings from here to there~~~Laurie:o
hello i am new herre and just started researching my family history
i have a freat grandmother with the given name of Mela or Meli and married name of pitts was told that she was cherokee and or part blackfoot but have no info on her origins? If you can help it would be greatly appreaciated .
thanks
tia
Welcome, Tianicwanga, glad you found your way here. May I suggest you post what you know about this line, names, places, timeframe, etc. to the ‘Share Genealogy’ section, using some of the surnames as the title? You’ll get better noticed there by the right people to help you dig. Also, use our search feature if you haven’t already for your names. If you haven’t seen my article at http://www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm is sums up most of the research and hypothesizing we’ve done on the Blackfoot ID.
rodtree20744 wrote: There is also a book by Paul Heinegg named Free African Americans of North Carolina, Virginia, and South Carolina, It has genealogies from the colonial period to about 1820 that contain a lot of the same surnames. Back then you could be Indian or African depending on who was looking or what was happening at the time. I found my Benjamin Richardson in there who was I believe to be Saponi.
PS Paul has a web page with a lot of the same information.
Hi rodtree20744, I to have family that is documented in this book and I agree with you. The name of the book is Free African Americans of N.C., Virginia and S.C. but many of these families documeted in this book were Indian or Mixed Indian from various tribes throughout this region. It even has sections listed in the book that make references to indian families.
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