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Halito!
I hope everyone is well and warmer than I am right now (it’s 57F freezing degrees! grumble, grumble).
I am posting this message to ask if anyone knows of a Brown family that lived in the Halifax county area of Virginia back in the late 1800s–more specifically the years 1860 and forward.
I know my g-grandfather’s family left Virginia eventually and migrated to Florida. I found his name from the census records–William Brown. He married a Chata/Choctaw woman named Mary–there were some isolated bands here in Florida. Their child was my grandpa.
Everyone on grandpa’s side has passed away and I have no one to help fill in the missing links in the family chain. My mother has helped me a little here and there but my father didn’t tell her a whole lot because he didn’t get along well with his parents and tried to have little contact with them as possible. Thank you much for any help or just taking the time to read this.
Hi, Welcome,
Can you provide more detailed information on your William Brown? There are a lot of them in that area in that period.
Bill
Alas, no; not much more information than his name. He might have had some family members by the name of Chester, Monte, and Moses Brown. However, I am not really sure because these might be children of someone who married one of my g-grandfather’s brothers (I don’t know their names, unfortunately). I think the area was Birch City? Birch something–could be wrong about that, too!
Okay. Let’s see what we can help you with.
Let me ask you some questions to help illuminate this a little.
‘Birch’ associated with Halifax Co., Va…….
how about Birch Creek Township, Halifax Co., Va?
On which specific census did you identify your William Brown and about how old was he?
What makes you think this one is yours?
Where did your William Brown (or which of his descendants) move to in Florida?
Bill
My mother told me that his family was from that area. I didn’t even know his name was William b/c she told me his name was Willie. I saw him, his wife, and my grandpa on the 1920 census–age 60. It says, “William Brown” on that census instead of Willie. I know it was them because it had some other Browns on there that were a part of his family–I recognized Monte Brown because I knew he was my cousin. My mom recognized some of the names, too.
The place of origin for W. Brown was Virginia but for everyone else it Florida. It confirmed what she told me about him being from Virginia.
I don’t know if he lived anywhere else but he did live here in Jacksonville. I don’t know who his brothers were or if they lived in this area–probably not considering that in this census, W. Brown was already 60 and the other Browns were quite young. The family members on the census are in all likelihood his nieces and nephews but it says grandsons/daughters. Curious, my grandpa was an only child.
Thank you for your help, Bill.
Hi Bill,
I was told on the history forum that there were not any Sappony Browns and to look to the Cheroenhaka and other tribes to the east.
That could be true but I don’t know that anyone can prove this, or that it is provable. The ‘Greater Sappony’ absorbs so many ‘remnant’ people that it is not possible to say that ‘such and such a descended family group’ wasn’t a related part. We are hampered by a great many records destroyed in burned courthouses and lack of interest on the part of our ancestors to co-operate with officialdom as well as the lack of specific documentation of those carried off into slavery, that it would be assinine to exclude anyone from specific areas within a given timeframe, as their descendants, just because their names weren’t recorded as Saponi in the early 1700s. A much ‘bigger picture’ has to be looked at, and a great deal more research is yet to be done, than has been done.
I’ve found the family group you’ve mentioned, but still in Duval County, Florida in 1900. I’ll see what I can do to develope this further back, but I’ll post the 1900 to 1930 data in any event.
Bill
Can census records be trusted?! On the 1900 census, it has several kids from William and Mary Brown!! I was mistaken–I thought my mother said that he was an only child (called her up in Fort Myers just to check). She said she had forgotten he had a sister but she didn’t know anything beyond that–no name, etc or anyone else.
What in the world happened to the others?
Duh, they probably passed away!! This is what I get for staying up so late plus not eating my daily allotment of processed cacao bean…brain sulking in rebellion and refusing to string together coherent thoughts….
Today, we fill out the census information ourselves and mail it in.
The census is taken every 10 years as proscribed by the U.S. Constitution, to define by area the number of people living within that area for the purpose of reapportioning local and state election districts to achieve a representative population per congressperson. Census records were not intended to document genealogies, but they do that after a fashion.
Back ‘then’, someone walked around, knocked on each door and asked the questions to complete the form.
Sometimes, people weren’t home and the neighbors answered the questions about their neighbors. Not very accurate.
Sometimes, everyone was out working and a minor child answered the questions. Not very accurate.
Sometimes, answers were given in one year, that clearly conflict by wide margins, from which were given 10 years before or 10 years later.
The woman of the house was generally the person who answered the census taker’s queries and their ages are the most suspect and have the widest margin of error (do tell) and women newly married didn’t always know alot about their husband’s family’s origins, especially if he had moved in from another area.
Can we trust what is on census records?
Generally, yes, when we can work out any kinks with other records, census records included. However, none can be taken as “source documents” without agreement with records before and after.
Can we trust ‘family stories’ ?
These are seldom written down and depend upon someone’s memory, and our confidence level is based upon whatever we love about that person. But the story is nearly always incomplete because we didn’t ask the questions ‘soon enough’ or that person wasn’t given the full story to begin with or they weren’t interested in knowing about it then.
Nothing implied here, it just happens that most people aren’t interested in the past and don’t pass on much information to their children or grandchildren about their own parents and grandparents because no-one seemed interested and/or the subject seldom came up – it just happens. There may be as many reasons as there are people.
Now, I don’t know about you, but if I’m not working from notes, I don’t dare answer a question about genealogy!
🙂
Bill
Then, I guess the information that I do have is as far as I will get. I would have liked to have known more or to see if there were any kin left behind in Halifax county.
As far as census records, I thought it was bizarre that W. Brown had a birth year of 1856 on the 1900 census and then a birth year of 1860 on the 1920 census. Mary’s birth date changed, too. I want to thank you for giving me a better understanding on how these records were collected. Now I understand how a lot of discrepancies can appear.
With family history, I have tried to ask what I think are the right questions. My mom is up in age and she has admitted that many of the things she did know, she has forgotten. She learned what she did know from my grandfather since she lived with them for a while when my father was overseas. Speaking for myself, I didn’t ask before–I wish I had when more of my kinfolk were alive but I had been taught that it didn’t matter or make a difference because we were just black since we some black ancestors. I didn’t question this until I married a biracial (black/white) man and he refused to go along with the one-drop rule. I thought a long time on this and I now believe that we are a distillation of all our ancestors, not just a selective few and that it should be respected.
The only other things my Trishka Bear (my mom) mentioned was that his family was isolated and didn’t mix much with the neighbors. My g-grandparents didn’t mind when their son married a Redbone/Melungeon woman but my own grandparents were not happy when their son decided to marry my mom (her father is black and her mother is mulatto–to use the term of the day). My father’s mother was ostracized by her family because she was ‘too dark-skinned’.
They kinda looked down on the other people of the community. The Brown family also had an absolute fit when my grandpa joined an organized religion–they didn’t believe in it and ostracized him somewhat after that. This is probably not relevant at all but I found their attitudes very different and unusual. Unfortunately, my father picked up some of these attitudes of predjudice.
Is there anything else I can do to learn more? Can you tell me anything about the families in Birch Creek? Are there any Browns there of NDN blood?
I checked on Ancestry real quick. I did find a Brown/Martin marriage and a Brown/Talley marriage in Halifax in the 1800’s.
I do know if this is helpful. Also, there was a church in Halifax called the Catawba Church.
Saponi1
Brown is all that I know of. I do not know the name of my g-grandfather’s parents and he married a Choctaw woman who was from Florida (not sure of maiden name).
I never knew geneology could be such a mysterious and potentially frustrating pursuit…. :confused:
Willie/William Brown’s wife Mary, their son and his wife:
1930 Duval Co., Fl; ED74 South Jacksonville; 12 April; Sheet 10B; Family # 232:
BROWN, Mary; Head; 52, Widow; m’d @ 24; Fla, Fla, Fla.
………., William; Son; 26; m’d @ 21; Fla, Va, Fla.
………., Willa; Dau-in-law; 27; m’d @ 23; Fla, Fla, Fla.
Next door is a relative, just not sure how they’re related, and the “2nd” Chester I mentioned.
Family 233:
JENKINS, Rena; Head; Widow; Ga, Ga, Ga.
(illegible), Chester; Grandson; 25; Fla, Fla, Fla.
………………………………………………….
1920 Duval Co., Fl Census; ED82 Hollywood Pct 29; 12 Jan; Sheet 11B:
Family 210:
BROWN, William; Laborer; 60, m’d, Va, Va, Va (age prob. 70+ )
……….., Mary M; wife; 51, m’d, Fla, Fla, Fla.
……….., William W; son; 18; Fla, Va, Fla, Laborer.
Family 214:
JENKINS, Rena; Head; 59, W’d; Ga, Ga, Ga.
…………, Mary; dau; 25, W’d; Fla, Fla, Fla
BROWN, Chester; Grandson; 17; Fla, Fla, Fla.
…………, Beulah; Granddau; 9; Fla, Fla, Fla.
…………, John; Grandson; 8; Fla, Fla, Fla.
…………, VanMeter (Vanneta?); Granddau; 5; Fla, Fla, Fla.
Family 217:
BROWN, Monte C; Chandler/shipyard; 28; Fla, Ga, Ga.
……….., Adeline C; wife; 27; Fla, Ga, Ga.
REESE, David H; Stepson; 9; Fla, Ga, Fla.
……………………………………………………………
1910 Duval Co., Fla Census; ED66 Jacksonville Pct 13; 29 April; Sheet 20B;
Family 441:
JENKINS, Rena; Head; 41, W’d, 12 children, 8 living; Ga, Ga, Ga.
…………, Fred; son, 27; Fla, Ga, Ga.
…………, Adaline; dau, 17, Fla, Ga, Ga. (m’d Monte C. Brown?)
BROWN, Mary; dau, 15, Fla, Ga, Ga (“Jenkins” in 1920)
Family 442:
BROWN, Willie; Head; 61, m’d 1x, m’d 25 yrs; Va, Va, Va.
……….., Mary; wife; 53, m’d 1x, m’d 25, 4 children, 4 living; Fl,Fl,Fl
……….., Georgia; dau, 20, Fla, Va, Fla.
……….., William; son, 7, Fla, Va, Fla.
p.21A, 30 April,
Family 446:
BROWN, Walter; Butcher, 26, m’d 1x; Ga, SC, SC.
……….., Flora; wife, 23, m’d 1x, 1 child, 1 living; Fla, Va, Ga.
……….., Wlater; son, 4, Fla, Ga, Fla.
p.11A, 22 April,
Family 228: (Willie/William Brown’s brother)
BROWN, Martin C (?); Butcher, 45, m’d 1x, m’d 21 yrs; Va, Va, Va.
……….., Susie; wife, 49, m’d 2x, m’d 21; 4 children, 3 living; SC, SC, SC.
……….., Monte C; son, 18; Fla, Va, SC.
…………………………………………………………….
1900 Duval Co., Fla Census; ED39 South Jacksonville, Pct 13; 7 June; Sheet 7A,
Family 147:
BROWN, Martin; Fisherman, July 1860, 39, m’d 9 yrs, Va, Va, Va.
……….., Susie; wife, Dec 1862, 37, m’d 9, 7 children, 4 living; SC, SC, SC.
……….., Mont Cristo; son, Dec 1891, 8, Fla, Va, SC.
……….., Mamie; dau, Jan 1881, 19, SC, SC, SC.
……….., Walter; son, Feb 1883, 17, Ga, SC, SC.
Sheet 7B,
Family 156:
JENKINS, Thos., Ship Carpenter; Mar 1855, 45, Fla, US, US.
…………., Rena; wife, Dec 1860, 39, Ga, Ga, Ga.
…………., Hatie; dau, Apr 1888, 12, Fla, Fla, Ga.
…………., Adline; dau, July 1892, 7, Fla, Fla, Ga.
…………., Mary; dau, May 1894, 6, Fla, Fla, Ga.
…………., Ruth; dau, Sept 1890, 9, Fla, Fla, Ga.
…………., George; son, June 1884, 15, Fla, Fla, Ga.
Family 157:
BROWN, William; Hosteler; (no Month) 1856, 44, m’d 1x, m’d 16; Va, Va, Va.
…………, Mary; wife, May 1862, 35, m’d 1x, m’d 16, 3 children, 3 living; SC, SC, SC.
…………, Lucinda; dau, Oct 1886, 13; Fla, Va, Fla.
…………, Chester; son, Nov 1884, 15; Fla, Va, Fla.
…………, Georgie E; dau, Nov 1889, 10, Fla, Va, Fla.
………………………………………………………..
1885 Florida State Census; Jacksonville, Duval Co; 30 June; p.768; Family 109: (most birth states incorrect)
Wm BROWN; 24, Laborer, Fla?, Fla, Fla*******
Mary…………; 23, wife, Fla, Fla, Fla*******
Chester…….; 6 months, b. “Dec”; son, Fla.
Georgian JENKINS, 20, Sister-in-law; Fla, Fla, Fla*******
Family 110 (who’s Frank?)
Frank BROWN, 22, laborer, Fla, Fla, Fla.
Nancy…………, 21, wife, Fla, Fla, Fla.
Timothy………, 1, son, Fla.
Louisa……….., 1, dau, Fla.
Family 116: (William’s mother, brother and stepfather )
Henry FREEMAN; 50, laborer, Del., Del., Del.
Lidia……………..; 55, wife, Va, Va, Va.
Martin…………..; 19, Stepson, Fla, Va, Va.
…………………………………………………………
1880 Duval Co., Fla Census; ED39 Mayport; 12 June; p.11;
Family 23:
FREEMAN, Henry; 41, farm laborer; Del., Del., Del.
………….., Lidia; 52, wife, Va, Va, Va.
BROWN, WILLIAM; 21, son, Va, Va, Va*******
…………, Martin; 15, son, Fla, Va, Va.
p.12 & 13, 13 June,
Family 36: (this looks like Mary and Georgiann’s mother is Roseann and Roseann’s mother is Jane Bryant)
BRYANT, Jane; 69, Keeping House; NC, NC, NC.
JOHNSON, Lewis; 35, works in Sawmill; Ga, Ga, Ga.
……………, Roseann; 41, wife; Fla, NC, NC.
JENKINS, Mary M; 18, dau; Fla, Fla, Fla.*******
…………., Georgan; 15, dau; Ga, Fla, Fla.*******
JONES, James; 10, — ; Fla, Fla, Fla.
………., Rebecca; 7, — ; Fla, Fla, Fla
JOHNSON, Reginan (?); 4 months, — ; Fla, Fla, Fla.
………………………………………………………….
1870 Madison Co., Fla Census; P.O. Madison, Fla; 4 June; p.19; Family 3:
BROWN, Lydia; 39, f, M, Keeps House; $0, $0, Va.
…………, Margaret; 19, f, M, Va.
…………, WILLIE; 13, m, M, Va.*******
…………, Celia; 10, f, M, Va.
…………, Martin; 6, m, M, Va.
also 1870 Madison Co; p.72:
JENKINS, James; 40, m, M; works on farm, $300, $275; Ga.
…………., Martha; 34, f, M; Ga.
…………., John; 20, m, M, Fla.
…………., Joseph; 15, m, M, Fla (twin?)
…………., Thomas; 15, m, M, Fla (twin?)*******
…………., Robert; 13, m, M, Fla.
…………., Amanda; 4, f, M, Fla.
…………., Mary; 3 months, f, M, Fla.
…………………………………………………………..
I haven’t found the Brown’s in Virginia yet.
Bill
Wow!!! Thank you much, Bill. The other Jenkins were neighbors–just happened to have the same last name.
I think I have more questions now than ever. Why did William (Willie) Brown’s family even move here from Virginia? Step father looking for work? Getting away (forced away?) from a bad area? Wasn’t Florida opened up to homesteaders around that time? Just rhetorical questions–don’t think I’ll ever know. It seems so strange to me–all of these people on a sheet of paper that had a part in making me. I don’t know them any better than they know me. Yet there they are like links in a chain or steps in an infinite ladder. So many stories unheard, questions unanswered, faces never seen.
I am fortunate that I knew my grandfather-William Brown and I am fortunate to find answers through the kindness of people I have never met (Bill especially!). I still feel a kind of empty pang of curiosity knowing all my questions will never be answered. I guess this is what geneology is all about–being able to answer the question that I used to be asked as a kid, “Who are your people?”
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