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You all have so much knowledge about names and locations and immigration patterns and such and I feel so stumped — by so many of my family connections. I guess I feel like I’m throwing myself on your mercy because I have no one else to ask for help. Dont know why it should matter so much but it does. Feels like a hole, a dark spot where family just falls off the edge of the earth.
I have so many mysterious endings to family lines in my family — generally in spots that seem to involve rumor of NDN ancestry and such. Besides the Wimberley/Vaughan/Dance NC mystery that I asked about on another thread (which has the strongest and clearest NDN connections), there is the case of the Gregory/Fants.
In their case the mystery could be something other than heritage — could be she deserted her family or something. David G. Gregory and Mary Fant had ten kids and became pillars of the Texas community where they eventually settled in 1848 — yet Nobody knows anything about either one’s parents or siblings. I mean didn’t their kids ask ‘who’s Grandpa’? There is also an Umbelton Gregory, who does have connections to Tennessee and Virginia Gregorys, who seems to have hung out with them and his son, A. D. (Abraham Duran). So why can’t I find out where David connects with him? Wrong side of the blanket?
And where did Mary Fant come from? On census and other documents they give varying places of birth. I’ve seen from Tennessee, to MS, to MO, to KY to KS, for either them or their kids. It’s claimed that they came from Tennessee to ‘Missouri, Indian Territory,’ which I think was really part of KY at the time, where he became a Cumberland Minister, first Methodist and later Presbytarian, in the 30’s. There is a record of someone by his name at a Mission in 1835 but not by ’37. 11 years pass and they show up in Texas. The record is pretty clear from there on.
I tend to think that they were both hiding something, especially about her ancestry or past.
Any ideas based on historical trends or names?
(Even just sympathy is deeply appreciated right now. I also have a Hughes/Brandon connection I can’t track, a Rordorf that I think were con-artist imposters — and an Egyptian-Jewish connection that is Really trackless.)
howdy —
I’ll look into it.
First if I were you, ask my parents and family elders. Ask where each ancestor was born, and when, and full names including maiden names. Once you discover what state they were born in, write the appropriate state agency to find a copy of their birth certificates. That should tell who the grandparents are, and where they were born, maybe when too. If you discover grandpa was born in 1885 in John Doe County, Texas, check out the 1890 census for that Texas County and look for a 4 or 5 year old kid with his given and surname. Head of that household will probably be his father and mother will probably be listed as “wife”. These parents will probably have their place of birth listed. Go back in 10 year intervals looking at those census records. Check out probate records, land records, and marriage records.
Go back as many generations as you can. Then you will have many more surnames. White men married Indian women much more often than Indian men married White women — there was a stigma attached to that. Because of this, you might need a long list of maiden names before checking Indian records.
That should get you started. Others might be able to better help you. Also of you know the location of where your ancestors lived. look up historic records and see which Indian tribed lived in that vicinity during that time frame.
Feel free to ask more questions. 🙂
Good luck,
vance
Hi,
Thank you for responding! My problem is I’ve done much of that and still have several mysterious lines that come to dead ends. There are quite a few people on the web working on those same mysterious dead ends, too.
For instance, I’ve got more than one who appears in the same towns as others with the same last name, yet insists they aren’t connected — and the other line doesn’t claim them either.
The connections they do claim all seem to have NDN relations, yet I can’t find direct NDN connections to my line. An example — Joel Bird who helped put up the marriage bond for Zachariah Wimberley and Quinney Vaughan in 1812 has children who show up in records as NDN and in the census as black or mulatto. And a relation of Quinney Vaughan’s, Stephen Dance, married an NDN woman. It also looks like her father may have married an NDN woman, too, later but the records I could find are unclear.
Other ancestors of mine seem to have a penchant for changing using middle names as first names in different states.
Most seem to originate in NC or VA.
You know, you may have given me a hint. If there was such a stigma against white women marrying native-american men, that could explain the family rifts I’m finding.
(Btw, what got me started was my mother telling me what her father said about being descended from a Blackfoot Indian woman. She also said she remembers someone talking about Crow, which I think was really Croatan. When I traced the family back, they come from NC.
She also told me how most of the family denied it and said they were ‘black irish’ but other people outside the family were always talking about them in a denigrating way as NDNs.
As far as I’ve been able to trace, we have No Irish ancestry and none of our surnames are irish. My mother also said she tended to believe her father partly because he Didn’t claim she was an Indian Princess but just a regular woman, and he had particulars about how she died in childbirth and such.)
Anyway, thank you. It helps to write my thoughts up. And to feel like I’m not alone in this.
About the thread topic: it seems Kentucky was part of the territory that became Missouri, which is part of the confusion. And the mission Reverend David was on took place in Kansas! Yet, he later refers to it as Indian Territory Missouri?
Does anyone know how these boundary shifts worked? Could Indian Territory Missouri have been the same place as what was later Kansas and Kentucky?
Here is a list of known tribes that have lived in Missouri during historic times —
http://www.hiddenhistory.com/PAGE3/swsts/Missour1.htm
The Indian Tribes of North America
by John R. Swanton
Bureau of American Ethnology Bulletin 145—1953
[726 pages—Smithsonian Institution]
(pp. 260-265)
Missouri
Caddo. Within historic times no Caddoan tribe is known to have lived within the limits of the present State of Missouri, but occupancy by Caddo is indicated by certain archeological remains in the extreme southwestern section. (See Texas.)
Dakota. Representatives of this tribe were a party to a treaty made in 1830, relinquishing lands in Missouri to the Whites. (See South Dakota.)
Delaware. In 1818 a grant of land in southern Missouri was made to some of the Delaware Indians but it was re-ceded by them in 1829. (See New Jersey.)
Foxes. Representatives of this tribe were a party to treaties with the United States Government concerning Missouri lands made in 1804 and 1830. (See Wisconsin.)
Illinois. Some of the tribes of the Illinois group at one time lived close to, and probably for a short time within, the eastern boundaries of Missouri. (See Illinois.)
Iowa. The Iowa perhaps lived for a time in that part of Missouri north of Missouri River. (See Iowa.)
Kickapoo. The Kickapoo lived in Missouri for awhile after they had sold their lands in Illinois but soon passed on to Kansas. (See Wisconsin.)
Missouri. Meaning either ” (people having) dugout canoes,” or “(people having) wooden canoes,” which amounts to the same thing. Through a misunderstanding, the name has been supposed to apply to the river which now bears the name, and it has been interpreted as meaning “big muddy.” They were also called:
Niútachi, their own name.
Waçux¢a, by the Osage.
Wa-ju’-xd¢a, by the Quapaw.
Location.—The best-known historical location of the Missouri was on the river which bears their name on the south bank near the mouth of Grand River. Berry and Chapman (1938) have recently sought to identify this site, and probably correctly, with what they call the Utz site at a place called The Pinnacles in Saline County, Mo., a few miles above the mouth of the Grand. (See also Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and Wisconsin.).
Connection.—The Missouri belonged to the Chiwere division of the Siouan linguistic family, the other tribes under this head being the Iowa and Oto.
According to tradition, the Missouri, Iowa, and Oto separated from the Winnebago at some indefinite period in the past and moved southwest to Iowa River where the Iowa remained, the others continuing to the Missouri, which they reached at the mouth of Grand River. Here, in consequence of a dispute between two chiefs, the tribe split again, the Missouri remaining where they were, while the Oto continued on up the Missouri River. From what we know of the relationship between the tribes in question, such successive fissions are not inherently improbable, though they may not have occurred at the places indicated. No doubt, events that happened gradually have been represented as occurring abruptly within limited periods. (For a further discussion of the Chiwere migration legends, see Iowa under Iowa and Oto under Nebraska.) Whatever their earlier history Marquette (1698) reported their presence on the Missouri River in 1673, and they were probably at the point above indicated, though his map is too inaccurate to place this beyond question. Here, or in the immediate neighborhood, they remained until 1798, when they suffered a terrible defeat at the hands of the Sauk and Fox Indians and scattered to live for a time among the Osage, Kansa, and Oto. By 1805 they had recovered to some extent, and Lewis and Clark found them in villages south of the River Platte. As a result of another unfortunate war, however, this time with the Osage, part joined the Iowa but the greater part went to the Oto to live, and followed their fortunes, participating with them in all treaties from 1830 onward.
Population.—Mooney (1928) estimates that there were 1,000 Missouri in 1780. In 1702 there were supposed to be 200 families. In 1805 Lewis and Clark placed the entire population of the tribe at 300 souls, but in 1829, when they were with the Oto, they counted but 80. Only 13 Indians of the Missouri tribe were returned by the census of 1910, and in 1930 they were not separated from the Oto (q. v.).
Connection in which they have become noted.—Historically the Missouri tribe itself is remembered particularly for the tragic manner in which it was almost destroyed, but, as in many other cases, its name has attained a distinction out of all proportion to the aboriginal standing of the people. It is associated with that of the largest branch of the largest river of North America and to one of the great States of the American Union. There is a post town in Clay County, Mo., called Missouri City; another Missouri City in Fort Bend County, Tex.; and a city in Harrison County, Iowa, known as Missouri Valley, besides a Missouri Branch in Wayne County, W. Va.
Omaha. Representatives of this tribe were party to a treaty made in 1830 relinquishing lands in Missouri to the United States Government. (See Nebraska.)
Osage. A corruption of their own name Wazhazhe, which in turn is probably an extension of the name of one of the three bands of which the tribe is composed. Also called:
Anahou, a name used by the French, perhaps the Caddo name.
Bone Indians, given by Schoolcraft.
Connections.—The Osage were the most important tribe of the division of the Siouan linguistic stock called by J. O. Dorsey (1897) Dhegiha, which included also the Omaha, Ponka, Kansa, and Quapaw.
Location.—The greater part of this tribe was anciently on Osage River, Mo., but from a very early period a smaller division known as Little Osage was on the Missouri River near the village of the Missouri Indians (q. v.). (See also Arkansas, Kansas, and Oklahoma.)
Subdivisions and Villages.—The two principal local divisions were the Great and Little Osages, mentioned above. About 1802 a third division, the “Arkansas Band,” was created by the migration of nearly half of the Big Osage to Arkansas River under a chief known as Big Track.
Oto. As stated in treating of the Missouri (q. v.), the Oto accompanied that tribe into this State, left them when they were both on the Missouri River near Grand River, and moved northeast into Kansas. (See Nebraska.)
Sauk. Representatives of this tribe were parties to the treaties involving Missouri land cessions made in 1804 and 1830. (See Wisconsin).
Shawnee. A part of the Shawnee Indians settled about Cape Girardeau in southeastern Missouri early in the nineteenth century. They ceded their lands to the U. S. Government in 1825. (See Tennessee.)
Go to the website for more.
good luck
vance
Thank you for all that. I’ve been tracing this ancestor’s steps, and so far, rather than following the typical settler pattern, he seems to be following the Trail of Tears, from what I’ve read of it. It turns out the Mission he preached on was in the Kansas City area, not Kansas.
I may have the wrong end of the stick with this guy. It appears more and more that he’s Anglo. There is still a mystery there — all of his family except one (and that one seems to be a bit of a black sheep, who marries at least 3 times and has 21 kids) just don’t claim him for some reason, despite him being a pillar of the community, reportedly a doctor and a preacher!
Wish I could find his wife’s connections, Mary Fant. Still working on her. Meanwhile, David seems to have been a Cumberland minister, who went to preach to the Shawnee, near Kansas City, for a year or two, then left the mission and became local for a while. No reason given for why he left. (Be nice to think that he realized he was doing more harm than good, but I doubt it. They apparently brought an epidemic with them.) I don’t feel called by this ancestor the way I do by Quinney and Mourning Dance, but I’d like to solve the mystery.
Meanwhile, I’m finding what look like NDN connections on other lines. And it’s always great to learn for. I thank you for sharing your knowledge with me — and others who may follow and read here.
Wow, I come back and reread when i know more and find more that is useful! (Even things from my own posts that I’d forgotten.) It looks again like there may well be an Indian (or African-American) connection through the Gregory line and coming out of the ‘Indian Territory, Missouri’ Kansas area. And that what was going on in history at the time is probably of prime importance.
I’m getting the impression that some of the children David G. Gregory took with him to Texas weren’t his. That they were probably kids he considered himself to have rescued from the Mission. The possibilities are:
1. African American. This Mission also taught 10 children of slaves. Shortly thereafter, doing this would be outlawed. Also, right around this time, in 1845, I think, there was a rift in his Methodist church on the question of slavery, and it was decided to be pro-slavery by some ‘delegates’ who weren’t actually the reverends from the Mission. I’m a little unclear on how this happened but that seems to be the gist of it. By the time Gregory reaches Texas he’s no longer Methodist but Presbytarian. (I don’t know how the Presbytarians thought about slavery. Will have to check this.) There was another point or two that i’ve forgotten. (Will have to start keeping better track.) So did Reverend Gregory take those slave kids to Texas?
2. Native-American. Reverend Gregory left the Mission after only one year (returned for a reunion in 1845) but went local. What was he doing locally? There were problems at the Mission such as the epidemics the Anglos, in this case accidentally, brought to the Indians. These kids had mostly been dislocated from their native states once and were threatened with being so again, which is what happened fairly soon after this, to OK.
Native-american children would have been easier to pass off as his than African-american slaves. So did Reverend Gregory bring Indian kids he’d grown attached to to Texas?
3. Umbelton’s children from either a Native-American or slave woman. Umbelton had at least 3 wives and 21 kids. He came with the good, cautious Reverend to Texas. He is the only Gregory family member of a previous generation that our David associates with. This seems strange. David is a complete pillar of the community. (Written up in Texas by the church and others, was postmaster, was said to be a doctor and even a lawyer, as well as a Reverend. All Umbelton seems to be known for is being a ladies man.)
So it turns out History probably does come into it. And, if they were Indian (yes, I know there are a lot of Ifs here) they were most likely dislocated Shawnee or Delaware as these were the majority tribal population at the Mission. Though I suppose if he’d ‘gone local’ and married a local Indian woman with kids (way too many possibilities here), they could have been from a local Kansas City area tribe. Misssouri? Caddo?
(Hope there is Something in my meanderings that will prove useful to others.
:rolleyes: 🙁 )
Hana
Hana >> Does anyone know how these boundary shifts worked? Could Indian Territory Missouri have been the same place as what was later Kansas and Kentucky?
A helpful website that I found for boundary changes is at:
Just click on the state that you are looking for and then select “maps” on the left hand side. You can look by county formation years or by census years.
Stacey
Thank you.
Here is a useful link for South Carolina county census records, historical maps and some other interesting stuff. (The original page I think had the same for other states. )
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/sc/
You mentioned the Methodist Church. Was that in Missouri? Where was this mission and what was it’s name? I have ancestors that were Methodists and found information in various Methodist papers. For instance most states have a book entitled “History of Methodism in (name of state).” Doing a google search can also help, and use the word “Methodist” in the search. I haev ofund interesting things about some of my ancestors by doing that.
The Methodist Church (at the time called Methodist-Episcopal) did split about that time, with the church in the Northern anti-slavery states being called “Methodist-Episcopal Church North” and in the southern states being called “Methodist-Episcopal Church South”. Both reunited and combined with other churches to be the “United Methodist Church” today.
You also mentioned Croatan. Have you looked into Lumbee?
Their website says they were once called Croatan, also they are in NC and SC I think. Maybe someone on their website can help you.
Vance
Originally posted by vance hawkins
You mentioned the Methodist Church. Was that in Missouri? Where was this mission and what was it’s name? I have ancestors that were Methodists and found information in various Methodist papers. For instance most states have a book entitled “History of Methodism in (name of state).” Doing a google search can also help, and use the word “Methodist” in the search. I haev ofund interesting things about some of my ancestors by doing that.
I wrote the Shawnee Methodist Indian Mission near Kansas City where he worked and they couldn’t find any more than I already had, which wasn’t much. But they did suggest I contact the local Methodist colleges, one of which turns out to have been around since 1858, about 10 years after he left, so I’m going to see if they happen to have collected any old local papers that might help. Google is my best buddy these days.
Originally posted by vance hawkins
You also mentioned Croatan. Have you looked into Lumbee?
Their website says they were once called Croatan, also they are in NC and SC I think. Maybe someone on their website can help you.
Vance [/B]
I haven’t looked very far into this angle yet because the Crow or Croatan rumor in the family wasn’t as strong as the other, and I wasn’t even sure which line it originated from. The ‘Blackfoot Indian’ story, on the other hand, was specific.
She’s supposed to be on my Wimberley line, and died in childbirth. There was then supposed to be a second wife who didn’t get along with the kids of the first so they left. And the family bible got burned in a fire, so we can’t prove whether our ancestor is the son of the first or second wife.
I’ve found an ancestor about whom all this is true: Zachariah Wimberley, reportedly born 1787/90 in ‘Raleigh’ Wake County NC, who marries Quinney, born probably 1794, also in Wake co. But this is where things get difficult. People in my family apparently have been speculating and trying to figure out Zachariah and Quinney’s parentage since the 1790s.
She is reported as the daughter of Stephen Vaughan and ‘Priscilla,’ though I’m not convinced Stephen is her father, though I believe he’s a relative. The man who helps put up Q and Z’s wedding bond in 1812 is Joel Bird. This is where things get interesting. There is a Sarah Wimberly who marries a Bird, according to her father’s will. They live in nearby Bertie County. The father is Lewis Wimberly. Z and Q’s first son is named Lewis. I suspect either Sarah is Z’s mother, and for some reason uses his mother’s maiden name, or Lewis is his father and Sarah is half-sister. But I can’t find:
Any real record of Zachariah’s or Quinney’s birth, or census records that clearly include him.
Any record of Sarah’s marriage to ‘Mr.Bird.’ (Some reports call him John.)
Quinney’s second son is named Warren, which becomes a family name, rathere than Stephen, which is the main thing that makes me doubt her father is Stephen. (It also looks from other records like he takes in other family members.)
Thoughts?
http://www.cc.utah.edu/~pdp7277/kcmo-rev.html
http://www.cityofshawnee.org/Events/bluejacketarticle.htm
Shawnee Methodist Indian Mission 785/ 262-0867
http://www.wornallhouse.org/history.html
http://www.ku.edu/heritage/um/magnify.htm
the above link is Methodist history in Kansas
http://www.historicalsocietyunitedmethodistchurch.org/genealogy.htm
These links probably won’t help much, but they might give you a direction to turn towards. Methodists keep old records — we’re not called “Method”itst for nothin’. 🙂 good luck
vance
Those last two links look quite useful for finding out a bit more about our Gregory. Thank you!
Because of our latest correspondence, which has convinced me that Nell probably came from both Rordorfs and Gregorys after all, I’m back to hunting Rordorfs (though with them it looks to be more likely a Jewish connection that contributed to their ethnicity, rather than Native-American.)
By following your gentle nudges, I’ve returned to actual records rather than speculation and diversions based on other peoples family history and recall (mostly from the Family Search function at the Mormon website) which I’d been distracted by. So I looked at the census for Cat Springs (Austin Co.) in 1870 and found a Rohrdolf (that’s what the writing looks like — probably a mistake but explains why my mother insisted it was Rohrdorf but said her cousin insisted it was Rudolf.) This family had a mother and older children with the right names and ages but the father’s name was Louis rather than Ernest. Anyway, this is probably a much better lead to pursue for now.
I’ve also been hearing from a lot of distant Wimberley/Hughes cousins I never met, which has encouraged me to look back at the line again. They are very interested in my Blackfoot Indian story. One of them was also told something about their being a Native American connection but didn’t have details.
😎
Hana,
Someone from Alexandria, Egypt, is also likely to have contributed to the “nappy hair” question you raised.
Bill
Alexandria Egypt is great-grandmother on my father’s side — no connection to Nell at all. (But I just learned from my newfound cousins, that by an odd coincidence, a great-granduncle on my mom’s side just happened to marry an Egyptian lady, too. Weird. )
It’s Quinney and Zachariah Wimberley, though, who are supposed to have the Blackfoot connection — and their appearing out of thin air in Wake, NC — that brought me to here.
Those two don’t even show up on the censuses, at least the ones I found, there are no birth records, Raleigh didn’t even exist yet when he was supposed to have been born there, so all I have are names.
Joel Bird who helped put up their bond in 1812, the first time I find them on official record, and the nearby Bertie Co Sally Wimberly who is noted in Lewis’ will as having married a Bird.
Their first born sons, Lewis and Warren. Interesting because Sally’s nearby father is a Lewis, and because Quinney’s father is claimed to be Stephen, not Warren. So if Quinney really is Quinney Mays Vaughan, then who is Warren?
All the other children’s names are accounted for, by names I found that are supposed to be Quinney’s siblings, and the one child named for Joel Bird, I believe.
That’s it on my other major mystery. The one with the Indian legend behind it. That’s all I really have.
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