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A place called “Fort Redstone” in Pennsylvamia, near the W. Va. border, has come to my attention recently, as a place in its fronteir days, 1750s, that had whites and Indians both as frequent visitors. Christopher Gist was there and supposedly in the 1780s or 90s a young half Indian/half Caucasian teenage boy came up to him and asked him if he was his father. I’ll get the link here shortly. Mr. Gist (I am not sure if it is talking about his son Nathaniel or Christopher) asked the boy who his mother was, and either Christopher or his son Nathaniel told the young man, well since she is your mother, I might be your father. I was once acquainted with her. The man who recorded this said he had been talking to “Mr. Gist” when this young man came up to him. He said he felt a little awkward listening to this conversation so he bid “good day” to Mr Gist and left him to talk with the young man.
My family history and tradition says my great great grandma “Harriet Guess” (1820-1886, spelled as it was spelled when recorded for their marriage license which I have a copy of) — my anut said her mother told her Harriet was Sequoyah’s “niece or great niece”. Dad (1915-1992) said his grandma said we were related to an Indian whose picture was in his Oklahoma History textbook when he was a kid, but he always said he didn’t remember which Indian she said we were related to, nor could he remember just exactly how we were related.
But I was lookin into this Fort, and saw I think there were others there, not just Cherokee. But at least this is evidence of the Chickamauga who probably were those who later were allied to Little Turtle in Little Turtle’s War. Anyhow, while trying to figure out if this was Nathaniel or Christopher, and rememberin the family story about about a possible brother to Sequoyah who was Indian and went by the “Guest/Gist/Guess surname, this account became of interest to me. And because of the location of Fort Redstone, I was wondering if people here had a record or knowledge of this fort.
thanks
vance
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/Chronicles/v015/v015p003.html
Here is the referene.
It speaks of “Nathaniel Gist” as the father of Sequoyah. Nathaniel was born in the 1730s. By the 1750s it says he had met with the Cherokee. By the 1770s he was very friendly with the Cherokee, and at first appears to have been a “Tory” dispite his families close friendship with George Washington. He helped with Dragging Canoe’s attacks on the Wautaga settlements. Later he switched sides and fought for the American’s, a reverse of what Benedict Arnold did.
But then it says there was an account of Christopher Gist in Cherokee Country, but the author says this must be mistaken, because he was up north, on the Ohio River. Later the author mentions an account that I mentioned earlier, about an illegitimate youth. This happened at Redstone, or this Mr Gist said it happened at Redstone.. The only references I found of Redstone mention Christopher Gist not Nathaniel. Christopher was Nathaniel’s father. Also this illegitate halfCherokee half Caucasian said his mother was Betsey, not Wu-te-he, Sequoyah’s mother. I think this is evidence both Christopher and Nathaniel had a Cherokee son. What do yall think?
So the author mentions Nathaniel was in the South and Christopher in the North, and there for discounts the reference that Christopher went to the South, but by the same token accepts this account that Nathaniel was in the North when other references seem to imply that Christopher was at Redstone, not Nathaniel.
I think this youth at Redstone might have been my ancestor, who would have been Sequoyah’s age but also his Uncle. The father of Harriet Guess was Thomas Gest (spelled “Gest” in Early Alabama marriages) and this was a family name. Or maybe Thomas father was this person spoken oof at Redstone.
With one family member saying Hariet was a niece or great niece and Dad not remembering the exact relationship, well, the daughter of a same age cousin might fall into that category.
Well I am just guessing . . .
vance
A Delaware nmaed “Nemacolin” and his people helped Christopher Gist and a Mr. Cresap build that a road from “Fort Cumberland” to Redstone Old Fort. This Mr Cresap was later the man who slaughtered the family of Logan, causing a War.
I’ve been reading about this the last few days.
Christopher Gist is recorded by many as being just about the first White man to perminantly settle in this area. It is close to what is now Pittsburgh. Other Whites in the area were a Thomas Brown, for which the town of Brownsville was named. Mr Gist was from the Baltimore area before this.
He warned Gov. Dinwitte (sp?) of Va that the French were building forts nearby. The Gov then sent George Washing to tell the French they wre building these forts of English claimed land. The French told George “so what!?” (paraphrasing). Mr Gist became acquainted with George Washington and they were friends for life after that.
This started the “French and Indian War” in the 1750s and 1760s, and “Lord Dunsmore’s” War in the early 1770s seems to have been a result of more misgivings resulting from the French War.
Christopher Gist had several sons, one was Nathaniel who went to live on the Holston in the Cherokee Nation. Christopher made a lot of money having his son with the Cherokees as he bought supplies in Baltimore and sold them to the Indians, and traded Indian furs which he sold in Europe for a great profit. Wertuh (Wu-te-he?) who one person said was also Elizabeth Watts (I don’t know how to confirm this) was said to be a “Trader” also — so this was a family business.
Nathaniel lived with what Christopher called “his people” speaking of the Cherokee. He was also said to be a “dark complected” man with black hair and eyes. Sequoyah himself said his father was half-Cherokee and his mother was a full-blood. Since Christopher also lived on teh fronteir, many locations in the east, he was said to have been the first white man to see, or just about teh first white man. I am wondering if Narthaniel was White or was he half Indian?
Nathaniel even was with Dragging Canoe when he attacked the Wautagan community, and he was said to have warned the Tories living in the area to flee, and they were allowed to flee through Cherokee lands to “West Florida”, near present day Mobile, Al. They were resettled there nad he was responsible for setting it up. He supposedly first is recorded with the Cherokees in the early 1750s (as a teenager) and was living with them off and on from then until 1777. He seems to have had a change of heart, and by 1777 he returned to White settlement. It was said he passed through some settlements that had been attacked by Dragging Canoe, and the white settlers wanted to shoot him as a traitor. But because of his fathers ties and friendship with George Washington, he was allowed back, with the soldiers protecting him until he was past their settlements. For the rest of the War he fought against the English. For a whgile he and his father both had the same rank so sometimes it speaks of a Col. Gist and it is difficult to know which one it is talking about.
Anyhow, I just thought this was interesting. Nathaniel had brothers raised near “Redstone Old Fort” who later migrated to Kentucky and some of these later went to Northern Alabama where my ancestor is found, Also Christopher Gists mother’s maiden name was “Howard”, the same maiden name of the wife of I believe it was Jessse Brock (or was it another Brock?) those who were in Lower Russell County Tax rolls. So this Howard surname has popped up a second time, now. Since Christopher was from the Baltimore area these Howard’s probably were also.
My Nevil Wayland is on this same tax roll with these Brock’s. You there is that web page that says these Brock’s were Indians. The web page says “Cherokee” but I wonder . . . Maybe Sequoyah’s father was “1/2 Indian” but it wasn’t Cherokee, maybe from the Howard’s.
Does anyone know anything about the Howard surname?
vance
Hi Vance,
Some of the present day Howard lines in times past were recorded as HOARD, HORDE, HORD, HERD, HEARD, as well as HOWARD – depending on time and place. My 3rd Grt-Grandmother was a HORD/Horde/Hoard, b.1809 in Ky.
There were Hord/Hoard’s in southern Virginia in the 1750-1800 period in the area between Lunenburg/Mechlenburg counties and old Pittsylvania county, Va., as well as in Eastern Tenn.
In Tenn. the majority of these surnames by the 1800s appear to have been recorded as HEARD, with a small spattering of HORD, according to the lists of them in early Tennessee that I have from the book “Tennessee Cousins” (c. 1950) by Worth S. Ray, who also wrote “The Lost Tribes of North Carolina”.
Further evolution of the spelling is shown in “Tennessee Genealogical Records” (c.1980)(originally compiled in the 1930’s) by Edythe Rucker Whitley, which has a HEARD and a HORD and a perponderance of HOWARD’s.
They are hard to track.
Bill
Do you know if there’s any indication of a relationship between the Mecklenburg/Lunenberg Hoard’s et al, and those in TN?
http://www.rootsweb.com/~seky/folfoot/006.html
This is a link about early Settlers of Harlan Co. Kentucky. The BROCKS/TURNERS/and HOWARDS are listed.
Originally the entire state was a part of Virginia. Settlement began in the Bluegrass region in the 1770’s although explorers and hunters had been there as much as 20 years earlier. At first, Kentucky was a part of Fincastle Co., Va. In December of 1776, it was changed to Kentucky Co., Va. In 1780, it was split into three counties – Fayette, Jefferson and Lincoln. The southeastern part of the state was in Lincoln Co. In 1792, Kentucky became a state and in 1799, the southeastern portion of Lincoln Co. became Knox Co., covering all or part of the counties of Bell, present Knox, Clay, Perry, Whitley, Laurel, Letcher, Leslie, Harlan and more. Explorers and hunters traveled through our mountains from about 1750 on but there was no known settlement in what was to become Harlan Co. before about 1790.
Fincastle Co,Va.
Fincastle Co. was where my Meredith Collins entered the RW in 1776 at the age of 16 years. It is also where the Brocks, Howards, Sloans, Roarks, Collins, seem to migerate out of NC. According to an old map I found there was a Indian reservation noted in that same area and this is where Chief Redbird aka Aaron Brock lived until he moved over into Clay Co. Kentucky. My feelings is that there has to be a lot of missing information from that Fincastle Co. area.
Vance: Jesse Brock married Rebecca Howard
Thanks Bill. I have seen many surnames “butchered” by now 🙂 by people who couldn’t spell, and that includes many of my ancestors so Hoard and Howard I suppose is no exception to the rule. Knowin that, I still would not have suspected those surnames were once the same. Thanks. That is good to know.
Christopher Gist married Sarah Howard and another Gist married a Mary Howard.
http://www.my-ged.com/db/page/powell/10243
Here (above) is where I found that information about the Howard’s and Gists. Either there is a type-o or something is wrong. It lists Sarah as being born in the 1750s while her son, Nathaniel Gist, was born in the 1730s — author of that website must realize that is impossible. 🙂 Maybe I am misreading it.
Thanks Brenda. That is usefuol information. I finally seem to have figured out where some of my ancestors from . . . 🙂 it’s been a struggle tho. That sounds like an interesting map, the one showing Indian lands in Kentucky. Any chance it is online? Do you know where a person write to and buy a copy of it? thanks.
vance
Linda, Brenda & Vance,
Linda – Most of the Tenn. Hoard/Hord people came from Mechlenburg/Lunenburg 1780’s or 90’s according to posts on genforum.
“The immigrant” of that line was John Hord/Herd, b.1664 Ewell, England – lived in King George Co. before moving to Caroline Co., Va and his Will was presented in Essex Co., Va on Nov 21, 1749.
At least one line was allied with “legal” (= rich) mixed bloods (Taylor’s were mixed Powhattan & English) and there were a large number of 1st cousin marriages among descendants. Several lines went to Ky in 1770’s & 1780’s and a couple more went to Tenn. Needless to say, there may have been more than one “immigrant”.
“Search this forum” for “indian” usually brings up some interesting stuff on lots of genforum surname sites.
…………….
Brenda & Vance : Ky maps
I have often seen the Ky map showing “Indian Lands” in S.E. and W. Ky. This was online at the Univ. of Va. site that I reached thru the usgenweb.com site for Fayette Co., Ky, but that link on Fayette’s site is not there anymore and I can’t find it on the U.Va.’s site now. Maybe someone can find this on the U.Va. site and let us know.
……………
Vance – There was no such thing as an “illegitimate” child in the Nations (particularly Cherokee) until people adopted european law and patriarchial culture at various times.
Bill
Vance,
I looked at that site showing Sarah Howard as born 1757 and her father Joshua as dying in 1738, etc., etc., and Sarah’s son Nathaniel Gist being born in 1733.
I found 12 pages of Gist’s and 49 pages on your Sarah Howard’s lines (who m’d Nathaniel Gist) in “Tennessee Cousins” by Ray. There is even a family tree for them and their allied familes and looking at those, the only (?) solution that makes sense is that the 1757 date is when Sarah died – IF that date has any credence at all. This is the same year that Nathaniel Gist bought 2 half-acre lots near the Howard’s (one was next door) in New London, Bedford Co., Va.
Sarah Howard’s family came to Virginia in the mid-1600’s (New Kent Co Land Patent dated 1658)(Land Patents also on West Branch of Elizabeth River in Lower Norfolk Co., Va along with same allied families they lived near in Tenn 150 years later), moved up to Somerset Co. and Ann Arundell Co., Md., then to Baltimore Co., Md., then to Bedford Co., Va with descendants going on to NC, SC, Tenn & Ga.
There is quite a lot of information, much of it supported by Wills and land records. I have to paint the house today so I’ll post the “direct line” info by tomorrow morning when I have more time.
Bill
Bill,
Do you mind if I send this information to my Brock list buddies? It gives us some new counties to search. I have been trying to discover where in Virginia & NC the Collins/Howard/Brock were living close together before going to Kentucky.
Brenda
Brenda,
I don’t mind at all. I was working on a Collyer line from Clay Co., Ky and found them recorded as Collins’s (and Collier) in some years and they were living near BOLIN, ROSS, SPURLOCK, ROBERTS, HOLLEN (Holland), WAGES and there were also some HORD/HOARD (sounds like HOWARD in some parts) relatives and a Sarah HOWARD who m’d David SIZEMORE in 1877 per Clay Co marriage records – lots of SIZEMORE’s here, too. Aren’t “THE” Brock’s related to some Sizemore’s? Clay Co. is in the old “Indian Lands” area, too.
Bill
Brenda,
I don’t know for which time period you need the Brock/Collins/Howard’s living together data, but I have that for 1820 Virginia counties – hope it’s helpful :
Number of households per surname indexed for the entire state of Virginia for census year 1820 (ancestry.com index for online census images):
Brock = 32.
Collins = 171.
Howard = 98.
………………………………………………………
Counties which have all three surnames represented and the number of households per surname:
County:………..Brock….Collins….Howard
Chesterfield……..2………..3…………..1.
Henrico……………1………..2…………..7.
Spotsylvania…….2………..2…………..4.
I didn’t search on any spelling variations.
Want that info for any other census year and or for NC?
Bill
Bill,
I wonder if Sarah was his wife rather than his mother If he bought land near these Howards maybe it was because he just married one of them?
I had thought the Chritsopher ist genealogy had been worked out . . . maybe there is a better website with this information on it. Thanks . . .
vance
ps —
the earliest I can trace my “Guess/Gist/Guest ancestors is a marriage record in Lawrence County, Alabama saying Thomas Gest” married Lancy Roney (maybe ?Nancy Looney?) in 1818 in Lawrence County, Alabama. Others have said he had 2 brothers named Christopher and Richard, and that they moved to N Al from Ky. I don’t even know how old Thomas was when he got married. Family story has said their daughter, my great great grandma Hariet Guess Brown, b. 1820, was “niece or great niece” of Sequoyah.
Bill,
I was doing a search this morning and found a 1704 quickRent Tax list for New Kent county which later became Lousia County. There were several Collins/Colliers, Brocks and Howards on the list as well as Holloway and Bradley. Meredith’s first son was named Bradley Collins (first wife unknown) and his second wife was Mary Holloway. Old Thomas Collins sold land on Pumumkey River in Lousia County 1747 and moved across the border into Granville Co. NC ( later became Orange Co. NC) He appears on Granville Co. tax list 1750-1755 with sons John, and Samuel. Samuel was the father of Old Vardy Collins ,the Melungeon. Old Thomas has sons Thomas Jr., John, Samuel, William, and Lewis.
I had also heard that Old Thomas Collins had a daughter who married Moses Riddle who was listed as Indian on the 1767 Pittsylvania County records. My Meredith Collins served in the Montgomery County militia 1778-1780’s along side a couple of Moses Riddle’s sons and also with George, John, David, and Lewis Collins. It kind of looks like these guys all hung together long before moving to Kentucky.
Brenda
Brenda,
Here’s a list of ALL of them that are on the 1704 Quit Rent Rolls :
Only King & Queen County has all three.
……………………………..
BROCK –
John, 1200 a., King & Queen**
Robert, 400 a., Isle of Wight
Thomas, 400 a., Princess Anne
William, 100 a., Princess Anne
……………………………..
HOWARD – (no Hoard)
Peter, 300a, King & Queen **
Alexander, 120 a., Gloucester
William, 300 a., Gloucester
Hugh, 200 a., Gloucester
James, 25 a., Nansemond
James, 700 a., Nansemond
John, 25 a., James City
William, 100 a., York
………………………………
COLLINS –
William, 350 a., King & Queen **
James, 300 a., King & Queen **
William, 1220 a., Nansemond
James, 300 a., Nansemond
Sgt. Giles, 500 a., Princess Anne
Jno., 100 a., Accomack
“Jno. + asband”, 1666 a., Accomack (no idea what that means)
William, 100 a., Norfolk
………………………………..
The only thing I have for Collins in New Kent is a 1725 listing for Rev. Henry Collins in “Register of St.Peter’s Parish, New Kent County, Va 1682 – 1784”, p.58, by the Colonial Dames of America, c.1904.
………………………………..
I do show Thomas, Thomas Jr., Lewis and a William noted in Spotsylvania records in 1749, 1752, 1755, 1757 & 1774 – obvious conflict with the 1750-55 NC tax list so probably not the same as yours. This Spots Co Thomas served in French-Indian War in 1755 and is listed as Thomas Collins’ Estate in 1783 Caroline Co next door to Louisa & Spots. These Collins’ are “mine” (Joseph Collins particularly) and are related to the LEWIS/Foster/BROCK/Sparks/Gatewood/Dudley complex of the early to middle 1700s period per Wills and Land Records of Spots. Co.
Bill
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