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Vance:
Just thought you might like to know that Fort Pitt is where my ancestors were too. I have a gg-something grandfather (make that several) who fought with the PA Rangers and was stationed at Fort Pitt. My gggggrandmother was housed for safety for a time at Fort Pitt where she became friends with the Zane family. Her son married the ggggrandmother who identified herself as Blackfoot. She was born in Beaver County, PA, but they lived in Slippery Rock until they lost their land in court and came to Iowa where she is buried beneath a stone marked as Blackfoot (a new stone put up by some cousin a few years ago.)
Cindy
Hi Cindy —
When were your ancestors at Ft. Pitt? I wonder if they were there at the same time mine were there. As I said, mine was there at the end of the Revolutionary War in 1783. Is that at present day Pittsburgh or was that someplace else? What historic range of years What this place an actual military post I wonder?
I did a search for “Moravian Indians” on google and it said most were Delaware.
In West Virginia I found Ritchie County bordering Wood County, at first I was excited but cautious. Caution was good, because it said Ritchie County was named after some politician in Richmond who never lived there in what later became W. Va. But Wood County was on the Ohio River, and I saw how easy it would be to emigrate down the River to Indiana from there.
vance
Vance:
William Ralston, my ancestor, fought in the Revolutionary War as part of the Pennsylvania Rangers, I think. I have several ancestors who served in this role and I have not looked extensively into their history, if indeed I can. I found that one was only on the Rangers for a month, but I am not sure which one. I looked into this for DAR membership but gave up on those in PA, because they or their descendents both appear to have married native American women, and I cannot find the paperwork on them that is needed because of the native American intermarrieage. I want to say that he might have only been in the War for a month or so.
I have studied the Moravian Delaware a bit. My ggggrandfather is buried in Newcomerstown, OH, the location of the massacre of 90 Moravian Indians in 1792. He was born at the location of a Delaware village in Indiana at a time when whites were chiefly traders. I am planning a trip to find his headstone in the near future, because I know that there were some native Americans in Newcomerstown with his name. His granddaughter married the son of the woman with the Blackfoot ID, but I do not know if he was native or not. His descendents certainly hid it if so.
Fort Pitt was a fort that changed hands between the British and French and ultimately was taken by the Americans. Try this link http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/pa/1pa/1picts/frontierforts/frontierforts.htm and this one http://www.fortpittmuseum.com/History.html It still has ruins that you can go see, as I understand. I took a trip east last year, but did not have time to stop.
Cindy
hi Cindy —
you said
I have studied the Moravian Delaware a bit. My ggggrandfather is buried in Newcomerstown, OH, the location of the massacre of 90 Moravian Indians in 1792.
I have read up on the Delaware when considering the possible Indian ancestor for my folks who went to Indiana. But my ancestors went to Indiana by way of Va, not Pa. But while lookin through the delaware info, I found three migration routes for the Delaware. All went west to Indiana, but some later went to Texas and these wound up in Western Oklahoma, and are the Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma Today. Their tribal headquarters is just North of the city of Anadarko. In fact when I had my last 17 teeth pulled 3 months ago, I called around and the best deal I could get on dentures was there just down the road from their tribal headquaters, and I was told they were cheaper because it was on tribal land, but I’nm not sure if that is true.
Another band went to Missouri and stayed there a while before going to Kansas and eventually NE Oklahoma. A third group went to Missouri/Arkansas first and then joined the Cherokee, and were enrolled with the Cherokee as Delaware. Some may have stayed in Kansas I don’t know for sure.
One relative (my great grandma’s sister, Sarah Brown) married a Bull, “Tarleton Bull” who was from Missouri but Bull was also a Caucasian surname. There was that famous Delaware warrior Chief Bull, amd some said he went to Missouri and died there (altho livin much of his life further East), but that doesn’t prove anothing . . . 🙂 But that is as close as I came to any Delaware connection to my family. I know Dad said he met Sarah and Tarleton once and said Tarleton was a giant of a man, he thought he was 7 feet tall he said. So he impressed dad.
Thanks for the links to Fort Pitt, I’ll look into it. Maybe you’ll get another chance to go to Fort Pitt in the future.Maybe you can find out more how to get information about those Rangers . . .
I went to Alabama this Spring and discovered a lot about my ancestors. I’d really love to see Oklahoma Cherokees visit North Central Alabama and learn about the Cherokees who stayed there. Some say “there were no Cherokee there, but I went there, saw the documentation, read the histories where there were 5 villages from Decatur to Doublehead’s Village neare Muscle Shoals in NW Al — there were 5 Cherokee Villages on the Tennessee River in this area and that is where my Alabama Relatives were first seen. And the people in these 5 villages were never added to any “roll” of Cherokee. In fact it is recorded that these villages existed and mixed with teh Chickasaw, but it was never recorded that they walked the Trail of Tears unless they went with the Chickasaw, and this is improbable. Nobody knows what happened to them, it just isn’t recorded.
On my next “vacation” I’d like to pass through Lawrence County, Arkanss, go through Gibson County, Indiana, and then head for Fort Blackmore on my way to any event being held by any group of Saponi in Va or whereever their Pow-Wow’s are had hopefully. I am not a fan of perceptions I get from people I meet only online, as there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. I’d love to meet everyone of yall face to face.
On line after I found “Stony Creek Primitive Baptist Church”, and saw my Wayland ancestors were there, I saw a book written my a Jack Goins, and told him (in an e-mail) about my Wayland ancestor at that church, and he started treating me like a long lost cousin, and sent me a signed copy of his book. I sent his photos of my ancestors. He was very kind. So wherever that Church was is another place I’d love to visit, that and Fort Blackmore.
well I’ve rambled enough . . . ha ha
vance
Sorry to hear about all that dental surgery. I had my first crown this past month. We’re the same age, (8-28-52) so I guess I should be grateful that’s all that’s happened on that score. Now, if it just weren’t for the chronic fatigue, brain fog, and muscle weakness/pain, I’d be in great shape.
There’s a Stoney Creek around here. I passed it recently. Can’t remember where I was (there’s that brain fog) but it’s around here. What state is your Stoney Creek in?
I’ll try and keep you posted on next year’s Saponi events.
Vance,
Thanks for the info on the Delaware. I only find the dates and locations for my family suspicious. There is no oral history there; just the coincidence of dates and places and a little bit that that side if the family was so bent on snubbing those that admitted to Indian ancestry and lived it. “There is Indian blood close on their side of the family” was the quote in my great-aunt’s memoir; she went on to say that this family kept my gggrandmother from her family probably because of their life style. And my gggrandfather came from Czechoslovakia where the Moravian church began and married my gggrandmother in Newcomerstown.
Linda, to help Vance and others who also want to get involved, have we done anything else towards the association we were just getting going when the server crashed? I asked this knowing full well that I was one who did not volunteer for a job, only spoke up in favor. My time is limited with school starting soon, but something I have encountered that I might be interested in doing might be working on a new web site or developing an extension that offers information that teachers can use. I have been frustrated by lack of information on cultural information on the web as I looked into things, although I was looking more for Shawnee, but the same would apply here. I am aware of the Eastern Woodland culture and have looked into this on the Web and in some print souces, but even then, the information is still dominated by those groups that did not have such early contact and/or more closely reflect the popular perception of “Indian”, i.e. teepee, buffalo-hunting, headdress, etc.
Cindy
Linda, Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church was either in Russell or Scott counties at the western tip of Virginia. Also mentioned were Hancock and Hawkins counties at teh astern end of Tennessee. It was very close to where Fort Blackmore was. Do you live near there?
One crown?? Go ahead & rub it in . . . 🙁 (just jokin’)
My wife had chronic fatigue and her doctor put her on thyroid medicine.
Cindy —
I have been trying to find information about these Moravian Missionaries on line and I have found virtually nothing. I do remember seeing where some Moravian Indians refused to fight for Tecumseh, and in fact became scouts for the men tracking him down. But aside from that i found very little.
Yeah this Blackfoot Association would be a good idea.
I came into this skeptical and also looking into Delaware, Shawnee, Miami, or some other group (And I still haven’t ruled out Tuscarora, Pamunkee, Catawba or Yuchee and probably others) but there is evidence for us being this “Eastern Blackfoot” — more so than for some of the others it seems. Were it not for this webpage I’d have no idea there even was a such a ting as “Eastern Blackfoot”. So I have learned a lot here.
vance
Vance,
If my gggrandfather Rhoads really was part/full Moravian Delaware, it makes it even more interesting for me to speculate on the history of my family. My ggrandmother (formerly Rhoads) shunned my gggrandmother Potter to the extent where she would not stay in the same room as her. My gggrandmother Potter wore her hair in braids and her family looked/lived native. They were Shawnee.
If my ggrandmother came from the Moravian Delawares, that is, the one who shunned my Shawnee gggrandmother, was the hostility between Tecumseh’s followers as you describe it part of the problem or just their desire to live white? It is fun to speculate. I suspect the latter. My information comes from my great aunt’s memoir, and it is riddled with comments on my gggrandfather (whose mother was Eastern Blackfoot), and who married my Shawnee gggrandmother Potter, and my ggrandfather, their child, was the only child who inherited the blue eyes and light complexion of my Irish ggggrandfather. It even emphasizes the children of my great aunt who inherited this coloring. This is interesting to me. If my ggrandmother shunned her mother-in-law because of her “Indianness” and she was part Moravian Delaware, she was a bit of a hyppocrite. I know that Newcomerstown has an “Indian” cemetery. I really want to get east and find out if her grandfather is buried in this cemetery or another. I can pay and find out, but I would rather find out myself.
Thanks for the information and sorry on your dental work. I have several teeth that are crowned. When I was in graduate school and under a lot of stress, I ended up with 2 abcesses and subsequent root canals and crown from grinding my teeth at night. Not fun.
Cindy
Okay, I just set up a private forum for the “Eastern Blackfoot Descendant’s Association” I set you two, Vance and TechTeach permissions to enter. Go try it out and see if it lets you in. I don’t think I’ve got it quite right yet.
Don’t anybody be offended I haven’t put you in yet. Just drop me a line and let me know you’d like access. I haven’t thought through what the “requirements” are. I just want something that isn’t totally open to the public where we can discuss our plans. I’m also thinking it would be good to have a restricted access to family photos, so we can feel freer to post things.
Does the topic even show to people who aren’t given access? That might be the best thing, no point making people feel excluded.
Cindy, I didn’t mean to leave the impression I was pro and/or con Moravian Missionary Indians. All people did the best they could, were torn by culture, were accustomed to hearing their own people called “savages” and “barbaric”, et cetera. Even the great Comanche War Chief Quanah said (paraphrasin), “I used to be a bad man” then went on to say he’d changed his ways, et cetera. This “stereotype” that a “Wild Indian” is a “bad Indian” was very common until a generation or two after the last of the Indian wars.
They “thought” they were doing the right thing for the future of their people on both sides, both were warriors. They didn’t know what the right thing was, continue to fight when you know it is hopeless — to the death of the last warrior, or to assimilate. I don’t want to point a finger at either faction.
Mom used to say to dad, “Your relatives hold grudges forever” and this frustrated her. Mom was nearly all German/Scots-Irish and Dad was probably between 1/4th and 1/2 Indian — Cherokee, and probably Chickasaw and Saponi, too, I am thinkin’ now.
vance
ps — and Cindy, I’ll try to find that reference again where I saw mention of these Moravian Indians. I made a mistake of mentioning something and not mentioning where I found it. I need to document what I am sayin, as there’s a “slippery slope” between what we know, what he think, what we hope for, what is and what isn’t. Documentation helps keep these differences defined.
CHRISTIAN INDIANS
On March 8,1782 ,90 MOHICAN Indians were brutally murder ,the white man beat these Christian Indians to death with hammers,bashed in there heads,they were taken captive and then seperated men in one cabin women in another, the next morning they were murder,This happened in a little place called
GNADENHUTTEN OHIO,here is the phone # to the historical society over there 740-254-4143,today the remains of those 90 Aboriginal people are in small mound just outside the museum over there.there was around or over 2 dozen childern there{murder}
these Christian Indians walked from the sandusky river in the middle of Feb to Gnadenhutten ohio which was there settlement ,there town,to retrive there corn crops ,they had been forced out of there town and were starving to death.
George
The Big Sandy and the Tug Fork of the Big Sandy form the border between West Virginia and Kentucky. Woods River, I believe, was an old name for the New River and was named after an explorer named Woods…Abraham? The New River also flows through West Virginia, as well as NC & VA, and connects with the Kanawha. The Headwaters of the Sandy aren’t too far away in SW VA, I think, and there were numerous trails between these areas. When we were rafting on the WVA portion of the New River last year we drove over to the VA side and visited a small reconstructed Indian village. One of the workers there said that fragments of Souian pottery had been recovered nearby. A tremendous amount of trade beads have been found along the New River and I suspect it was a major trade route between the Carolinas and Virginia and more. Possibly with a pan Indian composition???? Similar to the Susquehanna valley….
My David Mountz/Mounts on the first document I have seen for him (1809 Mongomery County, VA marriage bond) has a James Addair signing as his surety….Many folks say Addair was David’s guardian. Anyway, James Addair was one of the earlier New River settlers (C. 1773 or so) and ran a ferry across the New River close to Radford, VA. A descendent of this Addair has told me that they have a tradition of Cherokee descent in their family, but he is unsure if it is Addair or the Kirby line one of the daughters married into. From the little bits I’ve seen and from some of Phyllis’s comments on the Mingo list I’m guessing the New River area is another important hot spot. There are traditonal stories of Indian habitation there at the time of the first settlers. What makes research difficult, though, is the state and county boundary changes…
We were rafting on the WVA section of the New River, Pipestem & Bluestone area. The late prehistoric era village is in Bland County, VA near Narrows, just over the border. I don’t recall that the occupants of this particular site have been identified……a guide who also worked at the university mentioned the pottrey along the New when we were talking. My David Mounts is some how connected to the Narrows area….
http://www.indianvillage.org/maccordreport.html
While this report has the area clear when the whites come in, traditional sources I have read do note an indian or mixed blood presense around the New River….
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