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Mr Hall, re the furniture…. when we visited the Museum about 4 or 5 years ago, we were told that the furniture was in an upper room and not open to the public. I stand corrected and look forward to seeing it on our next visit to Hillsville.
Your information does not match any I have ever heard of. I am sure your have documentation to back up all you are saying. So please let us know where we can find this information. I would like very much to research your information myself. However my information came from people who lived in Carroll County at the time and seen it take place first hand. Most of them were not Allen’s or Edwards. So to say, this story was started and perpetuated by the Allen faction is wrong.
From what you are saying everyone who was there was wrong or did not tell the truth. And that you are right. However, you are right Sidna Allen’s Daughter did move to and made her home in Eden NC. In addition, she had to move her father grave for all the vandals; I am not sure how his Grand Daughter can current Something that happen, before she was even born.
Sir,
I was born and raised in Hillsville and knew many people who were participants in the affair or else were just there. As an aside, the courtroom would have held just over a hundred people so if all the people who claimed to be there that day were actually there, the place would have been as large as Yankee Stadium.
I am not sure what information you question, but would be happy to provide you with sources if you can be more specific. You probably have never heard what I said because the stories that were told afterward contained little truth. The county and state had as much reason to hide the whole truth as did the Allens. There was enough wrong to go around. Most local information came from fictionalized newspaper stories or distorted word of mouth tales.
If you read the trial transcripts, it’s easy to see that the county witnesses were well coached and the Allen faction was evasive.
When Sidna Allen was released from prison in 1926, he went to Eden to live with his brother, Victor, who ran a store there. Later, he moved to Orchard Street in Mt. Airy. He died of prostate cancer in Hillsville in September, 1941, while at his daughter’s home and was buried in the Gardner Cemetery. His wife, Betty, however, did not want to be buried there, so when she died in 1948, they moved Sidna to be with her. His grandchildren have never indicated there was any vandalism to his grave. To the contrary, by the time he died, he was something of a local celebrity.
The trial transcripts are in the Wythe County Clerk’s office plus we have copies at the museum in Hillsville. The 57 shots accounted for in the courtroom are documented by a blueprint drawn by Cyrus Phibbs also in Wythe Courthouse.
Perhaps you should read my book, “The Carroll County Courthouse Tragedy” which I wrote in ’98 and donated to the Historical Society, or alternately come to the lecture I’m giving this Sunday in the courtroom at 3:00 PM.
Sincerely,
Ron Hall
Historian and Genealogist
Carroll County Historical Society.
My family was also born and raised in Carroll County VA and Surry County NC. My Grandfather and many other family members and friends was there, The fact that you did not know they moved Sidna Allen to the Mt Herman Church in Rockingham County for the reason of Vandalism , makes me question your information even more, Since Sidna Allen’s Daughter Pauline is the one who told me that’s why they moved him. I find it hard to believe that Jim and Pauline never told Betsy (Sidna Allen Granddaughter) this Information. In fact, Pauline told over Friends this information one day in the washerette she owned in the Meadow green shopping in Eden. So in this case, I guess you are saying Pauline lied about the reason they moved her father.
I have researched many of that fact for myself, I have read and have copies of Sidna Allen Memoir put out by Gardner Enterprises, But the Courthouse Tragedy By Rufus Garner is the closes to the truth I have read. I am sure you will say he book is untrue also.
I would like your documentation that sheriff Haynes arrested Sidna and Wesley Edwards in NC and that Thomas Franklin Samuel did not cross the state line. the Fact is Thomas F Samuel knew floyd Allen was trouble, All my family said that Floyd Allen was the meanest Man in Carroll County and Samuel willing invited that trouble by going to Fancy Gap. In fact, Floyd and Samuel is the reason for all the Courthouse Tragedy anyway.
Since You was not there and I Was not there, I will Take the word of the people that was there,
Sir,
It sounds as though you are one of the ones who prefer to believe and perpetuate the myths and misinformation rampant about the courthouse tragedy. However, it’s your prerogative to believe what you wish. However, if you publish your misinformation to the public as fact, I will take issue with it.
I’m not saying that Pauline lied about anything; I’m saying that none of the 7 grandchildren of Sidna Allen that I have talked to have ever mentioned to me anything about vandalism.
For your information, Sidna Allen did not write his memoirs; he dictated them to his son-in-law and to a neighbor by the name of Thomas. The original publication was by Alwith Publishing in 1929. (Alwith is an acronym for Allen, Wilson and Thomas.) There were several printings later by other publishers. Rufus Gardner simply had them reprinted for a brief time in the ’50’s and now Betsy Chandler, Sidna’s granddaughter, is doing the same, although she has added some of her own remembrances and photos.
Sidna was capable of writing because he had been editor of the Carroll Journal in 1909. I’m not sure why he didn’t do it.
Sadly, Rufus Gardner’s book is mainly clippings from local newspapers that were provided to him by John Alderman. So, you are partially correct; only parts of it are true because of the source material.
My collection has 13 books written on the tragedy, but most, unfortunately, are higly fictionalized. The best of the old books is the one by William Chancellor Payne, one of the B-F Detectives, who published the journal of another detective named Elmo Brim. It came out in 1912 before Sidna Allen had been captured.
The information regarding the Edwards boys’ arrests came from two sources; an interview with Will Monday, the brother of the arresting deputy, Oscar Monday (which I have on tape) and the arrest record of Cabell Haynes in the archives of Surry County and it says that Haynes went to G. C. Lovill Company and arrested Sidna Edwards and Oscar Monday went to F. Messick Grocery company and arrested Wesley. This was on Wednesday, April 19th, 1911. Unfortunately, I have never found any extradition papers.
In fact, Haynes almost shot Sidna because he tried to drop his pistol down between some bags of oats and Haynes saw it and thought he was going to shoot.
Next morning, Haynes and Monday delivered the boys to the state line to Samuel and Easter who awaited in Easter’s buggy.
Floyd Allen was in no trouble when Samuels went to the state line. In fact, he had just been appointed a special policeman along with his cousin, Henry Carr Allen, to handle labor trouble occurring at a local damsite. For that reason, he was technically within his rights to carry a gun into the courtroom, although the ethics may be questioned. The law said that only a law officer or mail carrier could carry a concealed weapon in 1912. Floyd’s son, Victor, was a mail carrier but had no gun the day of the shootout. Dexter Goad, William Foster and Woodson Quesenberry were illegally armed under the letter of the law. However, at the later trials, Judge Waller Staples, pardoned their actions in his opening statement.
I am sorry if I have offended you in some way which causes you to accuse me of such fabrication. If you check around, I think you will find my credentials as county historian are very credible.
For your information I did not say Sidna Allen write his memoirs, and yes the original publication was in 1929, I did not say I own the original publication. In addition, I did not say Floyd Allen was in any Trouble at that time. I said he was trouble, meaning he was known to start trouble allot, as I am sure you are aware of. I do know the story you are talking about also, Randolph and Joshua felts of the Baldwin–felts Detective agency that was in Galax, they are in my Family lineage,
I have allot of family that was living in Fancy Gap at that time, in Fact My family sold the land to Sidna Allen to build his house and George Edwards helped dig the well
I am sure you are a very credible historian. In this case you do not have all the facts. And from what I have seen you are wrong on some of your information. If you do feel you have all the facts in the case, please tell me who helped Sidna Allen and Wesley Edwards when they was on the run, who got them food and helped them get out of the county and state.?
I Know Betsy and Joe Chandler, Joe owned a very nice pharmacy in Eden. I think it will be good for her to add her remembrance to the book, but not to change anything.
Sir,
I believe I have gathered more facts than any previous historians on the subject. I, and probably some of the forum readers, would be interested to know what information you think is incorrect. As an historian, I don’t publish things as facts unless I have researched and verified them. I researched the event for ten years before I wrote the book, which does not include the decades I spent listening to the story as a child from people who were there. However, let me point out that in order to get all the facts, you have to do more than talk to a few locals about the event.
My research included interviews with 26 living grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the participants, months in the courthouse researching legal documents, 3 trips to the State Library to research Governor Mann’s personal papers, reading all the printed matter I could find on the subject which amounted to 11 books about the tragedy and numerous others such as Elmo Brim’s personal journal, Governor Mann’s wife’s autobiography and Floyd Landreth’s prosecution notes. I spent over $500 in copying fees for such things as trial testimonies, witness lists, indictment records, etc.
One thing I learned early on was that local people did not have all the story and the stories they told depended upon which side their sympathies were on.
In response to your question, many people helped Sidna Allen and Wesley Edwards. (Friel Allen was with them for a couple of weeks, but his father negotiated his surrender.) Sidna wrote that he would never reveal who helped him, but several are known. He spent the most time on his sister Carenia’s farm. She married Hubbard Anderson Easter (at whose home the infamous corn shucking took place) and she would send food to them in her husband’s lunch pail which he would set at the edge of the field while he worked. Sidna and Wesley would get the food and they slept in the barn at night and hid in the woods during the day despite the fact that B-F had a detective watching the farm.
Jordan Edwards was another one and he was arrested for doing so. Others, such as Martin Guynn, Burden Marion and Cabell Strickland later admitted to helping them. Doubtless there were others who helped them during the roughly 30 days they hid in Carroll County. However, Sidna wrote that if he had slept in all the beds he was credited with sleeping in, he would have gotten no sleep as he would have been on the move all the time. Many people claimed to have helped them who never even saw them while they were in Carroll.
Incidentally, Joshua and Randolph Felts were not in the Detective Agency. It was headed by Thomas Lafayette Felts and William Gibbony Baldwin. Felts did have two brothers in the agency who were killed at Matewan, WV. The B-F offices were in Richmond, Denver, Thurmond, Bluefield and Roanoke. Felts lived at Blair which is near Galax.
I believe this ends our debate, since I really don’t enjoy publicly demeaning your misunderstanding and assumptions of the event. If you wish to contact me privately, you may obtain my email address through the Historical Society at 276-728-4113, if it isn’t available somewhere on this site. I would publish it here but that is inviting loads of spam.
If you don’t wish to read my book, I suggest reading “The Red Ear of Corn” by Bill Lord. We independently researched our books but essentially wrote the same story and drew the same conclusions.
Regardless, my best wishes to you, sir.
Yes this end the debate, you did not even come close to who really helped them. I have a letter written by Sidna to the person that helped them. I also have the personal account by the persons on how they did it. I never said I only had what people said. I also have books of documentation. I know for a fact you have a lot of misinformation and your opinions. by the why I talk to a lot more then 26 people and I did alot of foot work also. and on the felts well, I send you documentation on that one by mail. best wishes and good bye
Hi, I’m new here & you mention so many names that I’m just wonderin if they could be in my lines like Edwards which is my mama’s maiden name down from Cader Edwards from Wales, Jeffries line, Hammond is my grama’s maiden name. Not really sure how to find things on here only post em. My hubby’s ancestors are Indian for sure like Little Prince. Reckin I’ll figure this out soon.
Thanks,
Letha
Does anyone have anything on Little Prince b: 1762 in Broken Arrow Town, Newton, Georgia or Tustunnuggee Hopaie, speaker of the Lower Creeks he Married in 1779 to: Princess HONEYSUCKLE b: 1760 in Cherokee Nation? Bit confused, some say his line goes back but they’re from England. Honeysuckles dad was Big Eagle Cherokee Chief but they say this isn’t his real name… This is my hubby’s line & I’m havin so much trouble.
Letha
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