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Well the Reuben George thread got me interested in Christopger Gist again. In the old days I would have posted this there. But I don’t want to stray too far away from the Tuckaho/George topic — which I can do all too easliy . . . 🙂 I can stray off from anything . . .
Christopher Gist is shown as having a family and plantation in Wilkes County, North Carolina in 1750 and was said to have been the first white settler there. I think I posted this before somewhere.
But during this same timeframe this same man is said to have a plantation on the Ohio river in Kentucky I think (maybe Ohio or Pennsylvania??) — this is during the French and Indian War, 1750s or 60s .
Did this man have 2 families, one on the Ohio and one in NC? He was said to have saved George Washington’s life, and in return during the Revolutionary War George returned the favor by saving the life of Christopher’s son, Nathaniel Gist’s, life in 1777 during the Revolutionary War (I think Sequoyah was named after George Washington, his English name was George Guess/Gist). Nathaniel at first sided with the Tories in 1775 and fought side by side with them against the Wautagans with whom he had lived. He sided with Dragging Canoe’s Chickamaugans and fought with them until 1777 when he changed sides. It is recorded when he changed sides, they very nearly hung him on the spot as a traitor. His father’s ties and friendship to Washington are probably what saved him from this fate. Once inland he fought on the side of Washington until the end of the war, and both he and his father Christopher are said to have been advocates for the use of Indian troops, but I am not sure where to take this line of research. If they weer advocates for the use of Indian troops, where is the “proof” of it? Maybe in Washington’s papers somewhere?? Were these “Indian troops” only the Cherokee, or did they include others?
Descendants of Christopher Gist want to live in the myth that their families were “Indian fighters” and and ignore the fact that many of these families lived by the “code of the warrior” too, holding respect for their enemies so to speak, and were more like the Indians than present descendants will admit. Some were probably “Indian lovers” too, in more ways than one.
I am wondering if Christopher Gist has a secret wife or wives too, since he had 2 plantations, and a home in Virginia I think making that 3 homes, well . . . and being a military man he was off on the frontier a lot . . .
There are Gists in Ky and in NC, and from both they came into Tn and Al and Ar and Ok, and they all use the same given names over and over, generation after generation. Thomas, Nathaniel, George, Christopher, Richard, and others, Rachel and Sally . . . There are elaborate genealogies online all looking real good explaining this.
I wonder . . . the first families to claim descent from one Gist or another are entrenched in saying one person is their ancestor, and they might be wrong.
I think someoen said the “Elder” Melungeon book might include the possibility that Sequoyah might be part “Siouan” and my family research is leaning that way too (my great great grandma was Hariet Guess (1818-1886). I have a picture of Hariet as a tintype. Linda I once emailed it to you, but it was when you were moving. She is holding a little baby (Josephine Brown 1854-1932, my great grandma, the lady who married Jeffrey Hoten Richey, 1851-1926 — they married in 1872 and moved from Ar to IT). The fact that Josephine is a baby in the photo dates the it to about 1855.
Anyhow, these Gists played a big part in the Revolutionary War as well as these generations having many hints (other than Sequoyah) as being mixed-Indian. I wanna learn about this. I am suspecting that Christopher Gist had children that were half-Indian (possibly Cherokee or possibly some other tribe) and there are plenty of his descendants that don’t want to acknowledge this.
Vance
Thanks Linda.
I am gonna try and add a photo of my great great grandma (Harriet [Guess] Brown) and a baby, my great grandma, (Jospehine [Brown] Richey). Since Josephine was born 1854 that pretty much dates the timeframe this tin-type was taken.
and
vance
Hey Vance , well this thread caught my eye, I have heard thet Gist was married to a Bell or Ball woman with a middle name of Cary, I posted a while back on this rea ook with a map on the Buffalo hunters from the east , if I recall there was some material in there that may be helpful.
Also a friend in Georgia who is a Brown family descendant is researching this very topic, perhaps the Cary name is eastern Souian it shows up in my family.
Any way thanx for posting this and the Great photo.
It is a wonderful photo. Are you saying it was taken about 1855? I didn’t know that photography was that far advanced that early. Look at the baby. She couldn’t have held still for very long, but this image of her is crystal clear, no blurring at all. Does anybody know more about the development of photography? Was this quality of photography technically possible in 1855?
Hello well I’d go with it, tin type photos are way back and since vance has varified the age of the person I’d leave it at that!
Thanks Tom, but that’s a legitiment question.
Well you got me to thinking, Linda.
Carla (my great aunt’s grandson’s wife) Davenport, an elderly lady that sent it to me, assured me it was from this time frame. I also asked her the same question. That is, did they have photography back then? She said it was tin-type or something else and I couldn’t think of the other term. Well, just now I did a “google search” for “history of photography” and “tin-type”. It led me to the following website —
At — http://www.rleggat.com/photohistory/history/tintype.htm it says —
The TINTYPE process
First, see Ambrotype. The tintype, also known as a ferrotype, is a variation on this, but produced on metallic sheet (not, actually, tin) instead of glass. The plate was coated with collodion and sensitized just before use, as in the wet plate process. It was introduced by Adolphe Alexandre Martin in 1853**, and became instantly popular, particularly in the United States, though it was also widely used by street photographers in Great Britain.
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end of direct quote.
But I remembered the other term Carla used — it was “ambrotype”. So I looked up the link to ambrotype.
http://www.rleggat.com/photohistory/history/ambrotyp.htm
AMBROTYPE process, The
If a very thin under-exposed negative is placed in front of a dark background, the image appears like a positive. This is because the silver reflects some light whilst the areas with no silver at all will appear black. This is the principle behind the Ambrotype process, the pictures being more correctly known as Collodion positives.
Ambrotypes were made from the 1850s and up to the late eighties, the process having been invented by Frederick Scott Archer in collaboration with Peter Fry, a colleague. Ambrotypes were direct positives, made by under-exposing collodion on glass negative, bleaching it, and then placing a black background – usually black velvet, occasionally varnish – behind it. Though Ambrotypes slightly resemble Daguerreotypes, the method of production was very different, and Ambrotypes were much cheaper.
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end of direct quote
It mentioned “daguerreotypes” above with a link, so I looked it up.
http://www.rleggat.com/photohistory/history/daguerro.htm
The DAGUERREOTYPE
This was a positive image on a metal support.
The Daguerreotype was the first successful photographic process, the discovery being announced on 7 January 1839. The process consisted of
exposing copper plates to iodine, the fumes forming light-sensitive silver iodide. The plate would have to be used within an hour.
exposing to light – between 10 and 20 minutes, depending upon the light available.
developing the plate over mercury heated to 75 degrees Centigrade. This caused the mercury to amalgamate with the silver.
fixing the image in a warm solution of common salt (later sodium sulphite was used.)
rinsing the plate in hot distilled water.
Daguerre’s choice of chemicals was such that the action of light left a milky white image or mercury amalgam.
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Carla said the original wasn’t in very good shape and she had copies made. She sent me a copy and I scanned it and sent it to you.
I have 2 other photos of Josephine, one as a young woman and another as an old lady standing by a model T. Carla definitely said that Great Aunt Ettie called the baby in that photo her mother, tho.
Where they lived in Arkansas was near the Black River and Powhattan, Lawrence County. If you look at a map it is just 2 counties west of the Mississippi River, and the Mississippi back then was like an interstate highway today.
But I don’t know if there are any records of any photographers that early in Lawrence County or not.
I guess I can’t prove it.
vance
Linda, I wonder if something about the style of clothing Harriet is wearing can help date the photo?
That white thing aroung her neck is odd, wider on one side than the other, and it seems to be held in place with a nearly circular button like object. Also that collar apparatus is sorta square, an odd shape. She is probably wearing the nicest clothes she had.
Also it looks like she has an earring, and you can barely make out an earring on the other ear, being seen edgewise. I pondered over that “ear ring” thinking it might just be one of those “age spots” on the photograph. But those other spots are more blurred and are a different shade of “blackish-gray” whereas the earring is pretty much a solid singular color. Still, I am not 100 percent sure that is an earring.
Maybe the quantity of those “age spots” can also help date the photograph. Also the area you edited out of the photo show wear on the edges, and someone looking at that might know if it was tin-type or one of those others types of old photos. Those edges (that were edited out) do look like they might be tin, tho, or a metalic substance of some sort.
I also have a photo of Jospehine & a photo of her husband Jeffrey Richey taken perhaps i the early 1880s?? Some family members thing it was taken when they were married in 1872, but I don’t know. and it doesn’t have those age spots, and the edges don’t have that tattered/torn metalic look (that part that was edited out).
You are right about the babys hands and hand not moving. I can’t expolain it.
That photo that was uploaded of Rev. Jonathan Wayland, 1813-1884, that I got from the “A Cintennial History of Methodism in Arkansas” is in much better shape, and he looks like he’s in his 40s doesn’t he? That would date his photo to about the same time as Harriet’s. He was also from Lawrence County, Arkansas at that time, showing cameras existed in that region at a very early date.
Vance
Just curious. Would white women of the time have worn earrings? Those looked like pierced earrings too, kind of. Would this have been likely?
Vance, was she affiliated with the Methodism in your background. I would think that jewelry was frowned on. Anyone know?
Techteach
Techteach,
I have no knowledge of Hariet’s religion. Since her daughter Josephine was married in a Methodist Church I think “maybe” Methodist. I have also thoughtn “maybe” Presbyterian. It might have been because of the Richey/Wayland side of the family that they were married in a Methodist church.
It was the Waylands that were Methodists that I know of, and they are mentioned in 1815 as being Methodist. Before that they were Primitive Baptist. Rev Hugh Rainwater — who was Methodist and he was a good friend of Rev Jonathan Wayland — was the pastor that married Jeffrey Hoten Richey and Josephine Brown in 1872. It was Jeffrey’s mother that was the Wayland, cousin to Rev. Jonathan Wayland.
Jeff’s wife, Josephine, was the Brown, and she is, I was told, the baby in this photograph. Now if they were some of the Cherokee Browns which I can not prove, they would have been Presbyterian if Christian. There was a David Brown who translated the four gosples into Cherokee, and his sister Catherine was a prominent Cherokee missionary — both were well known at both Brainard Mission in the Cherokee Nation East and in Dwight Mission in Arkansas and Oklahoma. These were Presbytarian Missions. However the David Brown who is Cherokee was born @ 1804 and Harriet’s husband, also David B Brown, was born @ 1822. Both had father’s named John Brown, however again, they are “different” John Brown’s.
One little story. My grandma, Loney [Richey] Hawkins, daughter to Jospehine and Jeffrey, said when I was a kid her grandma was a Blanket Indian. That would have been Harriet she was talking about. My sister asked her (I don’t recall it, my sister told me) “Grandma, why do you call them Blanket Indians?” Grandma was said to have told her “cause that’s what they wore.” Now we always knew that was a descriptive term and not a tribal affiliation.
But I have run into people on the internet that say “Blanket Indian” means traditional, that is, not Christian. But I choose to believe what I was told my grandma said on this topic.
vance
One more thing. Hariet was b @ 1818 on census records making her @ 37 in 1855 when this photo might have been taken. The lady in the photo could pass for 37.
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=194&highlight=otho+hoten
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=6763#post6763
above are other family photos Linda has attached for me earlier. We get whiter every generation, so I just wanted to document what I could before it is all lost forever.
vance
How many children did she have? Was this one of her last babies? Thirty seven is getting close to the fertility cut-off, though I think women who had a lot of children seem to have stayed fertile longer. Do the census records show birthdates for her children?
I think the clothing does look ante-bellum to civil warish. I guess the only question I would still have is, how long of an exposure time was necessary for those early forms of photography? One thing I can’t help thinking when I see this photo is how worried she looks. I’d love to know what was on her mind. Maybe she was just feeling self conscious about being photographed.
We have a photo of my mom and her siblings when she was four. She’s all puckered up, holding back tears. It had been her job to hold the baby, but she’d blown it, he’d fallen and she’d just been scolded. It’s so precious.
Tom, I wanna talk about the surnames you brought up — just need time. Where did your ancestors live wrt these Gists? I believe you are right about Bell and Carey. They also married into the Howards.
Linda, if you blow the right hand up, it might be blurred, either that or it is folded under the wrist at an awkward angle. Maybe the photographer had a trick or gimic to keep babies still? I’m grasping at straws. I don’t have an answer for you.
vance
Vance,
Thank you for posting all of this. Your Gist research is very interesting indeed. I’m curious to know if he did have two families. The photography stuff is also very interesting. Since I have never touched on the history of the subject. It sounds pretty complicated. Thank you for including the links to the posts of the other photographs. I see a good resemblance of your relatives to my mother’s brothers. The Kinder boys, especially your Hoton (did I spell that right? Sorry if I didn’t) and my uncle Oran Kinder. Your Reverend looks a lot like the rest of mom’s family. I’m wondering now if I could see if Linda could post that photo of mom & her brothers, perhaps over in the Cem. thread or something. I know what you mean about getting whiter in every generation. I see that in my many nieces and nephews and even my other brother Kenny and my sister Sandy.
Please keep us posted as to your Gist research. It is a very curious thing and now I’ll be wondering about it! Thank you again. Love & Light, Lynella. What part of Kentucky did you say this plantation was?;)
Hey Vance well, what I know about these names is what a friend has told me, also my great grandmothers paternal grandmother was a Carey, I have seen it spelled many ways , check out the Cherokee treaties for James Carey , Cary , Casey, Cazey etc he was an interpreter at the treay of Holston Ga, 1780’s. I’ll try and find more info. on these people, like all the other folks with old family names they moved enamsse with each other.
On another thread this question was asked, and I personally believe that large kin groups were moving and intermarrying a cousin or two later.
Thanks once again vance.
Tom,
I just started a thread here on the history thread about the Moravians in North Carolina. They settled in Wilkes County, NC in 1752, while Christopher Gist settled in Wilkes County, NC in 1750. He was said to have been the first white settler in that county. So reading an account of what life was like for them will help us in understanding Christopher Gist. If you read it, a person marrying a Black, an Indian, a Melutto, or a person of mixed blood had to pay extra money and was given a hard time.
There were real incentives for a person NOT to admit they were of mixed race.
Vance
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