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Works Cited
Barsh, Russel Lawrence, and James Youngblood Henderson. “The Road: Indian Tribes and Political Liberty.” Berkeley: University of California Press, 1980
Carlson, Richard Allen, Jr. “Who’s Your People?: Cumulative Identity Among the
Salyersville Indian Population of Kentucky’s Appalachia and the Midwest Muckfields, 1677-2000, Vol. I.” Diss. Michigan State University, 2003.
“Community.” Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary. 11th ed. 2003.
“Community.” The American Heritage College Dictionary. 4th college ed. 2007.
Family Tree DNA. Genealogy by Genetics, Ltd. The Core Melungeon DNA Project. 2001. 7 April 2008 .
Hantman, Jeffrey L. “Between Powhatan and Quirank: Reconstructing Monacan Culture and History in the Context of Jamestown.” American Anthropologist 92 (1990): 660-676
Jeskie, Emily. Letter to the author. 23 August 2007
Katel, Peter. “American Indians.” CQ Researcher, 16, 2006: 361-384.
Marieb, Elaine N., and Katja Hoehn. Human Anatomy & Physiology. 7th ed. San Francisco: Pearson, 2007: 1148-1149.
Merrell, James H. “The Catawbas.” Indians of North America. Ed. Frank W. Porter. Vol. 7. Philadelphia: Chelsea House Publishers, 1989. 1-16.
Nagel, Joane. “American Indian Ethnic Renewal: Red Power and the Resurgence of Identity and Culture.” New York: Oxford University, 1996.
Orange County, VA. Order Book 3. 1741-1743. 309. Virginia State Archive. Orange County, VA Microfilm Reel 31, 309.
Zeller, Shawn. “Tribal Wrongs?: The Cherokee Raise Racial Ruckus on the Hill.” CQ Weekly 65 (2007): 3524.
The Collins family is a well researched break away band of the Saponi tribe. In a letter to a Mrs. Stallard of Coeburn, VA, Robert K. Thomas, a well known Cherokee field ethnographer, states that, “As far as I can determine, all the Collins of Northeastern Tennessee, Southwestern Virginia, and Eastern Kentucky are descendants of one household of Collins who resided in Orange County, N.C. in 1760; a family of Saponi Indians. I know that it must be mind boggling to imagine that the thousands of Collins in your area are all descended from just one household, but such is the case. Further, this is not too amazing as it sounds its common among pre-Revolutionary American families”. (Thomas)
Been awhile since last reading that letter. Thanks for the refresher. I wonder how certain he was of using the word “all”. There is a Collins researcher who has written a book (which includes my family) who seems to disagree. She says they were English, but married some Indian women. She did not know there were Collins in Orange County NC or Pittsylvania CO, VA before her family arrived in Pittsylvania Co, so am not sure what to make of it.
A fellow at the Moon Ceremony weekend before last had a shirt that showed a sillouette of a native american and beside it facing in the opposite direction was a sillouette of what looked liked a colonist…the caption read, “I’m half white but, I can’t prove it.”
Thanks for the compliment Jack, hope I get an A on that in my English Comp I class. It was my final research paper and as I was writing it I discovered the senate committee and figured, well I’m mad as hell about it all so why not voice it with my essay as a letter.
Beeleaf: quote,”Been awhile since last reading that letter. Thanks for the refresher. I wonder how certain he was of using the word “all”. There is a Collins researcher who has written a book (which includes my family) who seems to disagree. She says they were English, but married some Indian women. She did not know there were Collins in Orange County NC or Pittsylvania CO, VA before her family arrived in Pittsylvania Co, so am not sure what to make of it.”
I know about some in the Collins family that flat out refuse to believe that the Collins were Indian. They argue the wrong piont. They have it stuck in their head that we couldn’t have been Indian before a certain piont. I disagree with that assessment. I also disagree with the Pennsylvania material for an orgin of our Collins. There is just no proof of it for my line of Collinses and DNA has prooven the link between Old Thomas and John Collins father to my David Collins of 1750 and we know that John,William, and Samuel Collins were brothers and sons of Old Thomas.
The information that often is cited that the Collins were purley English goes back to the incorrect line of John Collins of Bertie County, N.C. Martha Dempsy IS NOT David Collins of 1750’s mother.
See the following information Bill Childs provides to follow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Childs
Most of these questions have been answered and are posted on saponitown.
There are two David Collins and people have copied obviously contradictory information.
The “other one” was born abt. 1758 Bertie Co., NC, and is still there in 1790, 1800 and 1810 census records. Bertie Co is in eastern NC.
His parents are Joseph Collins (1790 & 1800 Bertie Co Census), b.1726 Bertie NC, d. 1802 Bertie NC who m’d Elizabeth Bennett Penny. This Joseph left a Will in Bertie, writted 2 June 1799, naming his children.
Joseph Collins’s parents are purported to be John Collins, b.1690 Nansemond Va, d. 1 Feb 1751/2 Bertie NC who m’d Martha Dempsey. This line is white on all records.
At the time this Collins family line is documented to be in Bertie Co., NC, the group comprising David Collins, b.1750, is documented as being in western Virginia and later in western NC – a long way from Bertie Co.
While I like to keep an open mind, the reference to a David Collins, b.1750 in “Grayson Co., Va” with a mother Martha Dempsey is factually in error on a number of accounts, having been confused with the David Collins of Bertie Co., NC, whose grandmother is purported to be Martha Dempsey.
1) Grayson didn’t exist until 1793 when it was created from Wythe Co., Va.
2) The David Collins, b.1750, is listed on the 1790 Wilkes Co., NC census along with Ambrose, George, Hardy (Vardy?), Martin and Valentine Collins as well as Joel, Archibald, Ezekiel, Jordan & Andrew Gibson and Jo. Nicols, Jesse Bolin (and Henry Hardin). This, at the same time the “other one” is listed on the Bertie Co census.
3) Rowan County North Carolina Marriage Bonds:
1 Oct 1772. David Collins and Thompsey Posting.
Bondsmen: Henry Zeody, Alex Brown.
4) Who are the parents of David, b.1750? John Collins the Saponi (1742 Orange Co., Va Court Records) is an excellent candidate but as they were “living as Indians in Virginia” having “stolen” the Collins surname for their use and recorded as living on “Indian Lands” in an area west of Montgomery Co., Va, I doubt you can prove it in as direct a way as you would in more recent times with white people.
5) Please read some of the documented background listed as links in the “Share Historical Research” section of saponitown….here are a couple…
http://www.rootsweb.com/~wvnichol/bd…emttocross.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/wv2/dillon1…latt_river.htm
(this last URL didn’t wrap properly – I’ll see if I can get it to work)
There are more.
collins, that’s a good job (posts #12-16). I can’t say I agree with every sentence of the politics, those can differ from one to another of us without any major damage. But the summation of who did what to whom, and especially the extensive source citation, is better than most such efforts (here in Saponitown, or elsewhere).
Does that silly CDIB card remind anybody else of the “grandfather clause” that used to be used to deny voting rights to southern blacks (in many states, after Reconstruction ended, one could not vote if one had a grandfather who wasn’t eligible to do so). It’s not only crazy, it’s self-perpetuating and cumulative craziness…
Our law books have been purged of a lot of nonsense like that since the 1960s; but of course we’ll keep electing the sort of people who are eager to enact more, to replace it.
I’d be depressed, but I’m into irony.
Thanks PappyDick,
Honestly, I am still flabbergasted about what I found in the research regarding blood quantum and these over all views that other Indians have about tribal sovereignty.
I believe in the concept of tribal sovereignty, I just don’t think that the system or the tribes are set up properly to handle it practicly or fairly. Just my honest opinion. I know that alot of people will disagree with that viewpiont and I can respect that, but I still have to wonder how Indians that have no real say in how tribal affairs are run will be able to have a voice with corruption so rampant and personal agendas dictating the future of Native America. I’m really on the fence when it comes to these issues because I have personaly been burned by it all and witnessed others get burned as well and yet the government dictated to the tribes for long.
Is it fair to have one group of Indians being recognized while others are denied?, and this happens even within families dealing with these issues. That makes it worse.
Should tribes be allowed to set their own membership standards?
Normally, I would say yes of course, but in light of all that has happened since that power was given to the tribes I have to wonder if that power is being applied in a fair way. Today I would have to say it isn’t and that tribal leadership is are acting wrongly. They actively are accepting and are using bylaws and constitutions that demolish families and create the worse kind of fueding. Its all about misguided leadership and personal agendas and who is going to have power over whom. Its truly a sad state of affairs.
know about some in the Collins family that flat out refuse to believe that the Collins were Indian. They argue the wrong piont. They have it stuck in their head that we couldn’t have been Indian before a certain piont. I disagree with that assessment. I also disagree with the Pennsylvania material for an orgin of our Collins. There is just no proof of it for my line of Collinses and DNA has prooven the link between Old Thomas and John Collins father to my David Collins of 1750 and we know that John,William, and Samuel Collins were brothers and sons of Old Thomas.
The information that often is cited that the Collins were purley English goes back to the incorrect line of John Collins of Bertie County, N.C. Martha Dempsy IS NOT David Collins of 1750’s mother.
Thanks, Collins. Don’t want to get much further off topic, but this would be a Collins line who allegedly came from Albemarle County via PA or MD, via Anthony Collings of England. Ever heard of him? Edward aka Ned (my guy) and Elisha’s father is supposed to be a William, whose father was Thomas. What I have not understood is how researchers can tell which William and which Thomas, unless they have found records they are not sharing.
Anyway, you have covered many interesting points in your letter.
I imagine it feeling good to be “recognized” by “them” the same way I recognize myself, or Daddy recognized his grandmas or the way my beloved extended family recognizes each other. But am not sure it can ever be like that. Kinda seems odd to need recognition from strangers for being who I already am in the eyes of those who matter. ;~)
You and I know who we are and our families know who we all are, but some of us would like inclusion into the rest of the Native world view/society/community/history.
Thanks for the reply. (All of it–have just copied this part to comment on)
I share that desire. Just don’t ever want to discount the communities that are already part of me (and vice versa).
Was not aware of the other things going on that y’all have mentioned. Just wanting to figure out which direction (if any) my William Collins came from. His family lived in Henry/Patrick/Pittsylvania Counties of VA and Stokes Co, NC from 1767 or before until now. If that rings a bell to anybody, you are welcome to PM me.
Collins being Cherokee would not surprise me. That is actually our family’s oral tradition for all but a couple of lines that mention which tribe they come from. Am aware that it may have been a blanket term for VA NDNs. But it could also be correct.
My wife contacted the Powhatan-Renape tribe in NJ to inquire as she is a descendent of Chief Wanhunsonocock. They sent her a letter that basically said if your ancestors did not stay true to their race and marry full bloods all along (were talking 400+ years here) then she does not have enough indian blood to be considered so don’t even bother. It came off a very rude. But they would be more than happy to have us visit and buy souvenirs and donate to the tribes development fund. I sent them a letter telling them what I thought of them and where they could put their tribe.
Thats another thing I don’t get, they call us “wannabes” and “thinbloods” and yet want us to go to their Pow-Wows and spend our money or by their trinkets. What logic is in that to go support groups of people that have nothing but contempt for those of us with the Indian blood.
I also wanted to state that I’m not out for a bunch of freebies either. I know it does cost a lot of money to keep things moving forward. I am very glad to be able to access a forum like Saponi Town where people can come together and exchange ideas and family history. I’m not completely opposed to helping support something I believe in either. Socializing in any context is completely Indian. Its in our DNA. :)]
The piont I was making, is that if a tribal government is going to say that the Collins are Cherokee, so that we should go to the Cherokee, this is another way for them to get rid of the person asking questions and it happens all the time.
Collins, I understood. Was just speaking of my own situation, since I have no experience with what you have reported. ;~)
No Dempsey connection that I know of, but would probably need to go back further than I have to be sure.
fwiw, R. Haithcock lists several of my families (including the Collins) in his VA/NC Indian census book. But I can’t figure out how he reached that conclusion. So there are 2 seemingly different ideas that have been published about them, but nothing offered for me to follow the trail to see for myself which (if either) is correct.
beeleaf wrote:
fwiw, R. Haithcock lists several of my families (including the Collins) in his VA/NC Indian census book. But I can’t figure out how he reached that conclusion. So there are 2 seemingly different ideas that have been published about them, but nothing offered for me to follow the trail to see for myself which (if either) is correct.
Hello Bee….cousin Richard Carlson also mentions the COLLINS families in his dissertation…he indicates that they were Saponi Cherokee for the most part…a few select quotes:
1. Ch 3, CD page 150: “…(Greasy Rock NDN Population)…John Bowling…Vardy, Ben, Sol COLLINS, Shepherd Gibson…these New River NDN’s moved south toward regions out of VA and into NC.”
2. Ch 3, CD page 162: “”NC families indexed as FPC were indexed on the VA side as “white” …these include the Cole’s, Nuckolls (Nichols), Perkins, Collins & Gibson’s”
3. Vol II, Sec 2, Ch 5, pgs 207,209: “Old Thomas Gibson’s son Tyra w/prosecuted in 1821 for an UNK crime in Lee Co, VA…Vardy COLLINS paid his $200 bail”
“…the younger Wm. Nichols (in 1830) lived nr Vardy COLLINS (in the New River area of TN) but woudl later move to KY to koin Valentine Collins’ family…all listed as FPC”
4. Ch 6, CD page 233: “Post 1830-40…Valentine COLLINS’ band of Saponi Cherokee families set up roots of what woudl become the “Salyersville Indian Population”…”
5. Ch 6, CD page 242: “…descendants of Billy & Betty Nichols married amongst the Cherokee Coles and old Saponi families of COLLINS & Gibsons”
6. Ch 6, CD page 257: ” (The) COLLINS’ quickly associated with the mixed-blood families of Steven & George Perkins & Billy Nichols. ” (speaking of migrations to Floyd & Lawrence Counties in KY)
So…based on what Richard says in his book (which is heavilly sourced) it is his contention that the majority of the COLLINS that married. lived, worked, migrated with our family were Saponi/Cherokee….I will get the opportunity to hopefully speak with him at great length this August at our Nichols/Cole reunion in MI. Take great care~~~~Laurie
So…based on what Richard says in his book (which is heavilly sourced) it is his contention that the majority of the COLLINS that married. lived, worked, migrated with our family were Saponi/Cherokee….I will get the opportunity to hopefully speak with him at great length this August at our Nichols/Cole reunion in MI. Take great care~~~~Laurie
Thanks, Laurie. You’re talking about Haithcock, not Carlson there, right?
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