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There is two Saponi groups in your area…The Saponi tribe in Missouri…and the Saponi tribe of ohio……the Ohio Saponi band has a list of surnames on their website…not sure which they all are exactly but they are really nice people.
Now here is a interesting story about the Virginian siouans and the iroqious.
Ok pretyt much all the Siouan speakers of virginia wasmerged together….and they all was pretyt much given the name “Saponi”….although originally Saponi was just a single tribe under the monacan. well eventually the Saponi was told they could join the Iroqious tribe of Cayuga….which some did…mostly tutelo but some of this newly merged Saponi nation did join and along with the Tuscarora had became the 6th nation which later went on to Canada……treaty was signed etc etc…..then some of those saponi who stayed was told they could join the Iroqious tuscarora in Bertie county, nc…..which I’m sure some did since the Collins and Bunch was living in Bertie county.
Well as time went on many of the descendants started calling themself Cherokee…..Cherokee being the closest Iroqious tribe to them…..also Cherokee became a name most white settlers had replace “indian” with in the NC and Va area…..whte settlers would see a Native american and just see….Look there is a Cherokee……So I’m sure the name stuck for one of those two reasons…..by the 1800’s many Saponidescendants started saying they was Cherokee even though they did not migrate from cherokee areas. This same thing happened with descendants of NC tribes in NC who had fought in wars beside the English and was given land in Georgia during the land lottery around 1830.
There is lots of people who was Native American descendants who had signed applications for cherokee enrollment etc for stuff like the Dawes etc etc…..but really came from the tribes not of cherokee……..a interesting document is from the Jeffries and Guy families who founded the texas community…..they had wanted 2 letters sent to the BIA or whatever wanting to be allowed to move to the Reservation in Oklahoma and wished for help in doing so….yet in those letters they claimed they was Catawba…..probally why they never went to Oklahoma….however it is weird and interesting as to why the Catawba’s thought they was also supposed to have been a part of the Oklahoma (Indian territory) reservations? The Catawba was often with the Saponi so was these tribes thinking they had been adopted by the cherokee because of the Cayuga (Iroqious) adoption of Saponi….did they think that the ones who did not leave with the Cayuga was to be part of the Cherokee which was a cousin tribe of the Cherokee? Another very intersting thing is…the Catawba and the cherokee would often fight since they was different language speakers and they shared the same hunting grounds around the Broad river area……but yet later they was wanting to have assistance to go to the reservation lands in Oklahoma with the Cherokee. It’s weird and confusing.
When robert K Thomas went in person and met the Haliwa in the year 1978….he asked them who was their ancestrial tribe….they said “Cherokee”….which is weird because they was no where near the cherokee nor their ancestors. In fact most of them was from the Nansemond…….about a year later they changed their name to Haliwa Saponi…..the name change probally had something to do with the fact that Robert Knox Thomas had said to the Haliwa that he ran into a family known as the Collins and that his research showed the Collins was Saponi….he even mentioned how some of the Collins had migrated to Newman’s ridge and then migrated up into places like Kentucky…..year or so later from Knox’s talk with the Haliwa and his telling them about the Collins….the name Haliwa Saponi was born.
Now it is a known fact that not all Cherokee left to Oklahoma during the Removal….alot went up into the Mountains….these was real Cherokee….
Missouri and Ohio had some of the real cherokee and they had some of the Siouan descendants who was claiming Cherokee…..and that makes it very tough to know which is which.
I’m probally getting soo far off topic…but maybe I’m staying on topic lol
Ok now here is more interesting stuff…..the Saponi was not all originally Siouan….they had adopted several of the NC Algonkians from the Mattamuskeet……names from the Mattamuskeet who end up with the Saponi are names like Collins (whose oldest records show them living with the Machapunga/Mattamuskeet) and the Austin family. Common among the Mattamuskeet is also the Gibbs family and with a simple google search we can find that Gibson is a proven spelling variation of Gibbs. We also find the Goins name among the Lumbee which was originally known as Croatoan of roberson county…original name of the Croatoan was Hatteras which was a tribe who lived with the Mattamuskeet. There is even a old newspaper article from Georgia which called the Lumbee, Melungeon.
Also among the Mattamuskeet was man with the last name Vandermullen (may or may not be associated with the Mullens)…Nichols is another name associated with the Hatteras/Croatoan. Then we also know the recorded words of the saponi was both Siouan and Algonkian. We also know the Saponi had villages in Nash county, Johnston county, and Bertie county, nc. So that is just one example of how tribal members was bousning from tribe to tribe in the 1600-1800’s. One surname can sometimes be traced to more than just one tribe…I’ve seen some direct line ancestors of people having bounced to more than 3 different tribes.
Then we have another thing….the 1600-1700’s slavery…..enemy tribes was going and kidnapping their enemy tribes and selling them to slave traders for items and also to just get rid of their enemies……then there was the white and yes black also slaver traders who themself was kidnapping Native Americans to sell off…..the Tuscarora wars was partially started over their children being sold off as slavers to plantation owners in places like VA and Carribeans. Alot of people think disease kileld off most of the natives but was really happening is mass slavery……slaver traders was to give part of their money to the queen of england…..so they hid how many native american slaves was being sold off and just told her…oh the native americans are dying by the masses…..now any person who researches plagues will know with any plague you will find mass burial grave sites and to this day not a single mass burial of native americans have been found….most cases people will find maybe 2-15 skelltons….sometimes maybe find alil more than 20….thats not what a plague would be counted as…..so yea..mass slavery was going on….so the native americans who was kidnapped from SC-VA was being put on reservations for Sugar and tobacco. What happens next….these men escape….they know the trails…they know where villages are….so they just run to the nearest native village, does not matter if it is a enemy tribe or not……..so now you have alot of different tribes living together due to escaped native slaves…..it got so bad that the settlers (white and black plantation owners and slaver owners) decided to just use west africans as slaves……so what native american slaves was left on the plantations got traded for west african slaves…..these west africans alot of times got brough from the carribeans and the natives from sc-va got taken to the carribeans……got so bad that places like Barbadoes (most virginia plantation owners also owned plantations on barbadoes also, most plantation owners in Virginia and Sc had actually moved from barbadoes which alot ofpeople think they had came right from England, but alot of cases was they left England then went to Barbadoes and then to SC and VA) made laws that said no Black, Indian, nor Mulatto slaves are to be brought into the island nor taken off the island any longer.
I probally got really off subject that time lol……but it should help understand what was going on in the South East…..and how things got soooo freaking mixed up.
Now one more thing….where did the Siouans come from….well there is a place you may have heard of..if not then google it…..Cahokia….INSANE place…it’s the USA’s version of the Aztec and Mayans….4 different language speaking nations lived there and their city was made in the image of the medicine wheel. The Siouans lived there, the iroqious, the Choctaw, and others……it was HUGE…..it is often called mound city. I may be off on the date but about say 1200 or 1300 ad….there became fighting and arguing amongst the people…..possibly over how the woman (clan mothers) was the head speakers but the men may have gotten angry over this….different nations maybe felt differentabout the clan mother’s leadership….we really do not know…..but we do know all the various language speakers and groups abandoned the massive city full of mounds….I think Monks mound may even be one of the largest mounds in the world. well here is where the Dakota and the Eastern Siouan split ways….Dakota eventually split agian and became Lakota and Nakota. The eastern Siouans kept spliting and you get monacan, Catawba, Manahoac, and many others. Cahokia is probally where the iroqious and siouan wars started. I’ll add alil more later….got to go to the store now lol.
Now the Eastern Siouans stated they came to Va around 1200 ad…they said about 400 years before 1700 ad….so 1200 ad is a good guess. They said when they got toVirginia there was a group called the Dogi….this tribe went by other names such Doages, Dogues, Taux, Doeg, Tacci, etc.
They lived basically where the Manahoac Siouan nation lived. This tribe was close friends of the Nansemond. The Siouans said they taught the Dogi to be more civil and how to grow plants….they said the Dogi was very barbarious. The Dogi eventually ended up going north into Maryland….which is probally how the Collins family ended up with the Piscataway tribe (Chief Turkey Tayac whose real last name is Proctor claimed his native blood from a Collins woman who had walked to Maryland, he has a native American name for his Collins ancestor, his daughter or grand daughter now works for the smithsonian in the Native American department). Now this Manahoac, Dogi, and Nansemond relation ship may be the reason behind why the Nanesmond ended up around Halifax area in NC….which the Haliwa Saponi tribe’s members are mostly Nansemond descendants.
Now another interesting thing was going on in the South East…..we have to go waaay back in history…..and travel to Central Mexico…..there was a group known as the olmecs…they was the ancestors to the Aztec and Mayans. The olmecs was a mix of Native Americans who had traveled from the Western USA area to Central Mexico who had married in with blacks and possibly Berbers and Egyptians. So these people had the Black and Native look. eventually their descendants the Mayans abandoned their city…..a group of the Mayans went to cuba and then to Florida….which was the distance from the Mayans city to florida is equal to that of Miami to Atlanta. If we was to see these people today then we would without a doubt had called them Black and Native mixed. Well as time went on they married into the Florida tribes and then those descendants married into the Catawbas and other tribes in Sc….and then tribes in NC ( other South eastern tribes are descendants as well)……..this is when the Siouans, Iroqious, and other tribes from Cahokia began their eastern migrations….and they married into these people. So then we get to the 1500’s when the spainish had took over Veracruz (home of the Aztec)….these spainish was coming to florida with slaves (what slaves would they have gotten you may wonder…well who do you hear about being used for labor and such in the caribbeans….the Natives of course….Veracruz being home ofthe Aztecs then of course the Spainish is bringing Aztecs to florida for slave labor).
Some of these Spainish like Desoto was traveling all over the South East.
Interesting thing is before the English came to Hatteras island, NC in the year 1585 (who had Portugesse shipmates)…there was French and Spainish on Hatteras island….the English when they first landed on Hatteras they noted ship wreckages…and wrote about a shipwrecked debris where the ship pieces was partially burned and there was some mixed race kids among the Hatteras and the tribe had a flag with the circle with cross in the center (used by Spainish and Portuguesse) which the Hatteras tribe (Also called the Croatoan tribe) said came from the wreckage. Anyway Aztec was being used as slave labor by the spainish, Mayan descendants had migrated into the South East, and Cahokian descendants had migrated to the South East, and all these married into the already there Natives……the Mayan Descendant natives was black and native mixed. The Olmecs was even putting their hair in Cornrolls and had wide noses among other features.
I’m not sure if I skipped this part about Cahokia…but to know where the Cahokians went after they abandoned the city…is look for the Mound builders….all the mound builders in the SE had ties to Cahokia.
To compare the Eastern Siouans and NC Algonkians to any other tribes….they would best fit with the Aztec and Mayan…..they told time with nearly the same Calendar which consisted of wheels, flattened their for heads, used the drumming style of one drummer with 2 sticks, dressed in the same everyday clothing (not the regalias…but their normal regular clothes was alike), they along with the Florida tribes liked big round plates to cover their chest (however the florida tribes had more access to this so was rare to find among the Siouans and NC algonkians, in fact one of the first items the Hatteras tribe wanted from the English in 1585 was a big round plate to cover their chest), These tribes saw the red and blue colors as sacred (the red and blue to them symbolized good and evil, man and woman, pretty much the ying yang for all things need to be ballanced and without the opposite then things will never be level etc etc), These tribes did not use the Eagle or Hawk feathers, Serpants was very big among them which symbolized wrath but it also symbolized the creator’s pressence on earth, these tribes painted their face in the image of Tlaloc, The eastern Siouans and the NC algonkians had a idol amongst themself….often reffered to as Okee among 2 or 3 other names….Okee was made not in the image of the Siouans or NC algonkians but instead in the Image of the florida tribes which symbolized their descent from the florida tribes (which I have mentioned already). Okee was made into wooden statues to watch over the dead, he was also carried by the tribes into battle to watch over them in battle. Sometimes Okee was painted black because these tribes saw the color black to symbolize great warriors which is why some tribes in the SE and also among the Mayans and Aztecs liked to use the black paint (The Siouans liked the Red and Blue color..which Blue was known as a color for tlaloc)…..there is a historical document somewhere that mentions a SE native woman who saw a black guy and she was in awe, when she was asked about this she said the guy’s skin was black and her people paint theirself black to show who the great warriors in their tribe was and she figures the black guy must be the white group’s great warrior….she was also curious as to how his skin was black without the use of paint. Pretty much if you went back in time and ran across a Aztec, Mayan, or South Eastern native tribe and had to fight one person out of the tribe…..it would be your best bet NOT to fight the one whose body was painted black lol…..war chiefs probally would be one of the people painting their body black.
I’m trying to cover everything here lol…..I’m probally really off topic lol.
But hopefully you will find something usefull in what I have typed….maybe somehow it will help you in your quest to find the information you seek.
Well, I know that some of my family the Howards and Browns in particular made these moves from NC( or VA) to MD and back to NC. My Howards moved west from the NC area to Iowa though Ohio. This migration seems to fit with what you were talking about. From Iowas they came on down into MO.
My Ohio family was Gibler and Sam.
[Quote] When robert K Thomas went in person and met the Haliwa in the year 1978….he asked them who was their ancestrial tribe….they said “Cherokee”….which is weird because they was no where near the cherokee nor their ancestors. In fact most of them was from the Nansemond…….about a year later they changed their name to Haliwa Saponi…..the name change probally had something to do with the fact that Robert Knox Thomas had said to the Haliwa that he ran into a family known as the Collins and that his research showed the Collins was Saponi….he even mentioned how some of the Collins had migrated to Newman’s ridge and then migrated up into places like Kentucky…..year or so later from Knox’s talk with the Haliwa and his telling them about the Collins….the name Haliwa Saponi was born. [End Quote]
Wow Joseph, I find this very interesting…do you have a link or source, as I would like to peruse this further…Blessings,
Shirley
http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1023&context=robert_thomas
there is it….that was wrote -before- the Haliwa changed their name to Saponi…..for alil fun research when the Haliwa changed their name…then you decide who they got their name from really 🙂
Interesting why the Collins are never allowed to enroll with the groups in NC….but oh well.
all 3 of the groups in NC now using the Saponi name got the idea from the Collins, Bollings, and other families of the mid 1700’s granville, nc.
Bobby,
do you know what area the Lashley/Whitehead line came? In particular, the Lashley? There are some Lashley and Whitehead lines in Northampton/Halifax Co NC. In fact…here is a copy of an obit that might interest you…
“Mrs. Ella Lee Lashley, age 91 of Gaston, NC peacefully departed this life on Monday, November 12, 2007 at her home. Ella, a daughter of the late Joshua and Frances Scott Miles, was born August 13, 1916, a member of the Blackfoot Indian Tribe in Northampton County, NC.
At an early age she confessed her sins and received Christ as her Savior. She was a faithful member of Cool Spring Baptist Church where she was a Sunday School Teacher for 25 years and Advisor for the Junior Missionary Circle. She and her best friend, Bernice P. Shearin headed up the Kitchen Committee, and also held membership in the Pastor’s Guild and Mother Board.
For 32 years, she worked for the Northampton County Schools where she later retired.
She was the widow of the late Willie Lashley, Sr. and was preceded in death by a son, Willie Lashley, Jr.
She is survived by her children: Walter D. “Sambo” Lashley (Evangeline) of Gaston, NC, Otelia Harry of Roanoke Rapids, NC, Flora Martin of Gaston, NC, Dorothy Turner of Roanoke Rapids, NC, Richard Lashley (Brenda) of Gaston, NC, Christine Woodley of Gaston, NC, Helen Reed (George) of Gaston, NC and Evelyn Cheek (Edgar) of Raleigh, NC; thirty-six grandchildren, thirty-eight great-grandchildren and nine great-great-grandchildren; two sisters: Irene Powell of Gaston, NC and Agnes Webb of Richmond, VA; two sisters-in-law: Hazel Robinson of Gaston, NC and Marie Greene of Raleigh, NC; a host of nieces, nephews, other relatives and many friends.
Homegoing services will be held on Saturday, November 17, 2007 at 12:00 Noon in the sanctuary of Cool Spring Missionary Baptist Church with the Pastor, Bishop Wayne I. Welch, Sr., delivering the eulogy.
Interment will follow in the church cemetery.”
sammarroq wrote: This is late, but welcome:)
…is the avatar you?…looks very much like my brother:) Again, welcome.
Shirley
Thanks sammarroq, yes it is me in the photo;) Been very busy over the holidays just finnally getting back on this great site to do some researching…..Bobby
rosebudsaponi wrote: Bobby,
do you know what area the Lashley/Whitehead line came? In particular, the Lashley? There are some Lashley and Whitehead lines in Northampton/Halifax Co NC. In fact…here is a copy of an obit that might interest you…
“Mrs. Ella Lee Lashley, age 91 of Gaston, NC peacefully departed this life on Monday, November 12, 2007 at her home. Ella, a daughter of the late Joshua and Frances Scott Miles, was born August 13, 1916, a member of the Blackfoot Indian Tribe in Northampton County, NC.
At an early age she confessed her sins and received Christ as her Savior. She was a faithful member of Cool Spring Baptist Church where she was a Sunday School Teacher for 25 years and Advisor for the Junior Missionary Circle. She and her best friend, Bernice P. Shearin headed up the Kitchen Committee, and also held membership in the Pastor’s Guild and Mother Board.
For 32 years, she worked for the Northampton County Schools where she later retired.
She was the widow of the late Willie Lashley, Sr. and was preceded in death by a son, Willie Lashley, Jr.
She is survived by her children: Walter D. “Sambo” Lashley (Evangeline) of Gaston, NC, Otelia Harry of Roanoke Rapids, NC, Flora Martin of Gaston, NC, Dorothy Turner of Roanoke Rapids, NC, Richard Lashley (Brenda) of Gaston, NC, Christine Woodley of Gaston, NC, Helen Reed (George) of Gaston, NC and Evelyn Cheek (Edgar) of Raleigh, NC; thirty-six grandchildren, thirty-eight great-grandchildren and nine great-great-grandchildren; two sisters: Irene Powell of Gaston, NC and Agnes Webb of Richmond, VA; two sisters-in-law: Hazel Robinson of Gaston, NC and Marie Greene of Raleigh, NC; a host of nieces, nephews, other relatives and many friends.
Homegoing services will be held on Saturday, November 17, 2007 at 12:00 Noon in the sanctuary of Cool Spring Missionary Baptist Church with the Pastor, Bishop Wayne I. Welch, Sr., delivering the eulogy.
Interment will follow in the church cemetery.”
Thanks for the effort, rosebudsaponi, but the Lashley line was in Orange County NC untill about 1827, and moved to Maury County TN. I am finding out that the surname of these folks is Lasley. Just recorded as Lashley Leslie and various other spellings. I am finding out that the Lasley family had ties to the Cherokee Nation. William Lassley signed the New Echota Treaty….Bobby
Hey,
Was your George Corn born abt 1740 in Albemarle Co. VA married Dolly Luttrell ?
Dolly was second wife! First was Elizabeth with various last names ( Ladd, Snodgrass)
I come down through George and Dolly’s daughter Martha who married John Roach!
I just came across info I had not seen before with George’s grandfather being John Adam Corn
and from MO. Will have to look into this!!! Take Care…
Bobby, you and I may be distantly related. I have an ancestor named John Jehu Whitehead from Wayne County, TN. My paternal grandmother was Esther Whitehead Allen, and her parents were Will and Florence Whitehead. My grandmother and her brothers and sisters all moved to Lawrence County, where Granny met and married my grandfather. Granny knew how to make medicines, but she told me that she was so afraid that her white daughters-in-law would think she was poisoning their babies that she gave up making medicines and would not pass on the knowledge. I’d love to know if you have other information about the Whitehead family.
Hi Bobby, I am from the Whitehead/Whitted line we are said to have Native America families (Blackfoot and Cherokee). We don’t know how to trace our Native American line.My grandmothers mother was full blood(Blackfoot).She is from Mississippi don’t know where parents came from.My ggg grandmother on the Whitted side was Cherokee her name was Nancy Panther from NC.that is about all I know My cousin is doing a family tree on the Whitted/Whitehead family.She said we decend from Authur Whitehead. We would like to know more about our Native American family line.Maybe you can help. Linda Whitted McMickle from Russellville Arkansas. My email address is linda_mcmickle@yahoo.com
I’m descended from the Whitehead family that lived in Carter Co. Tn., Some of the Whitehead family also migrated to Blount Co. Tn.. I have heard oral stories that the Whitehead family had Indian ancestry, and the ones in Carter Co. Tn, would have two names their given name and another name that they would go by such as Thomas Whitehead who was called Whispering Tom Whitehead, or James Whitehead who was called Wolf Whitehead…according to researchers the Whitehead family migrated from Chatham co. N.C. to Carter Co. Tn before or around 1800.
how can I find out some more information about this.My grandfather was william eligah whitted he had a twin brother i think his name was george.we have a benjermin whitehead,stephan tipton whiteheadin our direct line they would be my grandpa whitted g.or gg or ggg grandfather.i’ll have to get with my cousin.where are you from.linda whitted mcmickle
Record72;31670 wrote: Thanks all, I don’t know why I have’t found this site before. I am semi-new to this. I started working on family history about 8 years ago, and with work, bad relationships and keeping up with my house just got away from it. I have more patience now to work on it. You know what kills me is I can onily find relatives listed as white all the way back to the late 1700’s. The Whitehead/Whitteds are just so uneasy about this subject and hold true to the English-Welch origins of the family. They were Quakers at one point but were kicked out of the church because of to “many outside marriages”. I am fine with them being English, but the fact is the intermarried with various tribes from day one of being in this country. Our government just stinks for what it has done to our people, and blacks alike. I guess I will just have to suck it up and deal with the fact that these people were just scared for ther lives and couldn’t admit to the truth. Not getting off the subject the Whiteheads are another chapter of the family delimas. I searched for alot of surnames and found a great deal of the surnames just not the ones I am looking for. I will do some more searching until I find something. This site is just to awsome!! Bless All Bobby
OK your a yocum and a turner?
we have a few other names in common .. but I want to tell you what I just discovered in the last few months
Were these some of your surnames said to be indian?
you see my Dna is a wierd one and I am supposed to trace to Ollie Nionee who married Attakullkulla or her sister , not lucy’s mom.
now there is some Yocum and some Turner decendants who also are very close matches within a few mutations to mine….. which well ours dont’ match Euro dna … nor is it one of the “native american” MT dna groups…
you see no one knows our history but the people here. definitely not scientist anyway . of the natives , those only have just a few clues left.
I have left a bit of info about Alleg on another page on this site .. you will have to search for it .. I left it a few days ago or just the other day and who and what ancient saponi/ some cherokee lines ( one that were run off/treaty party /alot of paint clan ) and that is why some say they are blackfoot/ or saponi/ or maybe cherokee… but what they really mean is
they are the older ones some how connected to Alleg -Allegewi , I do not know how to get to that page with the links from here .
but I thought you just might want to go and read all about it. I have only made a couple of post here under this name.
but I thought you would like to know about the surname yocum and turner are close matches to mine Mtdna U5b2b. so i do not know if these are some you are looking for .
so have a good hunt <<<{ 😉
They were Quakers at one point but were kicked out of the church because of to “many outside marriages”
there is a very interesting story about a famous quaker woman who one historian talked about . the woman is noted as having 13 kids.. what wasn’t common knowledge was that said famous quaker woman was barren and adopted 13 indian kids.
quaker isn’t always just quaker.. <<<>-{8-O
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