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This is taken from the Carlson Disertation. When I first joined the forum we spoke several times of Chief Mahennip. Here is what it had to say:
The Saponi leaders also denied that their warriors were involved with the death of the two Nottoway men, stating that two white men had informed them that the Tuscarora had done the killings.
The Board of Inquiery nonetheless arrested two of the Saponi “Great Men”, “Tom” and Mahennip aka Harry Irving” and committed them tothe public goal in Williamsburg until the two men could be brought in to verify their story.
( the two white men said the Saponi lie )
Coffey, a negro slave, relayed other messages claiming that Saponi Tom had said that if HIS son Harry Irving was hung, he and 3-4 others would kill the Virginia councilman who ordered the hanging.
( As I read on…Tom and Mahennip aka Harry Irving were found guilty and hung. Does this tell us that there were 2 Tom’s….Saponi Tom that was hung and Tom Irving , Harry’s father? And the story we heard about Mahennip not being allowed to plant his corn which forces the tribe to go south….where did that come from? John Trulinger…if you are out there I could use some help in figuring this out.)
Linda,
Check in “Share Genealogy Research” under Salyserville Indians.
Several of us have ordered the 711 page disertation. It is very interesting and well researched. I don’t agree with what he has had to say about Meredith Collins. He has him very well to do and owning slaves. This was not the case but I can see how he made that assumption.
Meredith Collins could neither read nor write but signed the few records I have found with a mark X. Carlson tells of the Saponi lifestyle and the Marrying tradition among the tribes. It made since with what I have found on Meredith. He “took up with” and appearently stayed with one woman til she had died or was no longer able to bare children before taking another wife.
I find Meredith owned a small parcel of land in Wilkes Co. NC abt 1797 but don’t know if he lost it to taxes or just abandoned it as I have found no sale for the property.
In Russell co. Va. Meredith was there from 1799 -1809 and lived in what was called “lower district” but I have found no deed. When he left Russell Co. his son Bradley stayed behind on his father’s land and didn’t follow them to Kentucky til just before the 1820 census.
Carlson mentions Meredith owned two slaves. This he found in the records as did I. The slave was a full blood Cherokee Millie Johnson, his third common law wife and their son, Meredith Levi Johnson-Collins.
In truth, Meredith Collins was a stuborn quick tempered old Indian that took his neighbors and his sons to court accusing them of stealing his land. I haven’t got through the entire disertation however from what I have read it does fill in a lot of blanks and makes for even more questions. Good discussion material.
Bill, you ordered the material…what is your thoughts?
Brenda,
You said he spoke about the tradition of marrying in the Saponi tribe.
One of my great great grandpa’s was Joseph E. Richey and his wife was Sarah Ann Wayland. They married in 1848, and when Joseph died in 1852 (after fathering 2 sons, Alfred 1849 and Jeffrey 1851), his wife Sarah married Hamilton Woods Richey (Woods was his middle name as well as his mother’s maiden name), who was one of Joseph’s younger brothers. Family story says that marrying the brother of her deceased husband was a “family tradition”. I remember reading in the Bible that the Saducees made an argument to Jesus once about a similar tradition that was Jewish.
But I was wondering if in his dessertation, Carlson covered anything like this when discussing “marriage traditions”. I know this is just a long shot . . .
Also you said your Meredith Collins was in Lower Russell County from 1799 to 1809. My Waylands were in Lower Russell county from 1797 to 1815, but we have mention of Francis Wayland after that date so at least one Wayland stayed there for at least a few years. I was told that Lower Russell County later became Scott County. Is that what you heard also?
One more thing — your Cherokee slave who was a common law wife. That is very interesting. If you can document this, it is evidence of a Cherokee/Blackfoot connection that seems to be pretty common from that timeframe. So that might be important. If more such unions can be documented, it would give more credibility to family stories that are similar.
thanks
vance
well I think there are alot of unproved assumptions by everyone what the word Mahanip may mean . it seems all think it is a name , well I am not sure of that , I know the name MAHAN is the surname that comes from the term or word.
but just like in the story of Pocohantas her dad was called Powhatan , that is not his real name it was his postition his tribe and probably his clan . any or all of the above. so good questions that would need to be answered are ?
1…
so is this term mahanip a political position, a clan , a warriors position ? if any of these are true than maybe a few men went by the word Mahanip.
2…
again the assumption being only one man owed the name mahanip, and that is impossible . so is this mahanip a blood relation to our collins or is he a in law?, uncle , grandpa? etc. or it the town or clan he was head man in or over?
just some thoughts
renee
VANCE,
The Hebrew law that you are asking about is best represented in the following from the pentatuch, The Book of Jasher :
24
And Er came to his wife Tamar, and she became his wife, and when he came to her he outwardly destroyed his seed, and his work was evil in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord slew him.
25
And it was after the death of Er, Judah’s first born, that Judah said unto Onan, go to thy brother’s wife and marry her as the next of kin, and raise up seed to thy brother.
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And Onan took Tamar for a wife and he came to her, and Onan also did like unto the work of his brother, and his work was evil in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also.
27
And when Onan died, Judah said unto Tamar, Remain in thy father’s house until my son Shiloh shall have grown up, and Judah did no more delight in Tamar, to give her unto Shiloh, for he said, Peradventure he will also die like his brothers.
28
And Tamar rose up and went and remained in her father’s house, and Tamar was in her father’s house for some time.
Of course the version in the KJ version of what is called the Bible is different, but the gist of the history is that if a man died without children and his brother was single, the brother was duty bound to marry his brother’s widow and give her children.
The bit of the story that we don’t hear in the KJV is that Er did not want to have children with Tamar. (Apparently his father Judah was in a huge hurry for grandchildren.)
I’m not sure what Er’s reluctance to sire kids with Tamar was all about…perhaps he was not attracted to women, but to put it politely his seed did not get to the right spot so Judah orderd Er put to death and then ordered Onan to marry Tamar and sire children.
Onan knew that by fathering children with Tamar he was lessening his own inheritance so he did the same thing his brother Er did and “spilled his seed” on the ground. Then Judah has Onan put to death and sends Tamar to her father’s house to wait until his other son Shiloh grew up enough to sire kids with her.
One has to wonder why Judah just didn’t do the job himself.
Also another note of curiosity…this story as it appears in the KJV book of Genesis is quite different…and is the entire foundation for some religious sects mandates against masterbation and birth control.
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