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Tommy,
I was not angry. I was just pointing out the facts of how it was for them. Being a northerner I didn’t think you knew these facts or how REAL these things are for the native peoples who did not leave the south. See they had to chose and being Indian was not one of the choices they were given…it was black or white. If their skin was not fair enough to be “white” then they didn’t have a choice. You know it’s sad when your mother tells you stay out of the sun don’t let your skin get dark and this is what my mother heard. My grandmother feared that if their skin got dark the secret would be out because their facial features were mostly indian. Now being indian was not something my grandmother was ashamed of she was just protecting her children from the racism that surrounded them. They were told who they were and were taught to be proud of it but be proud in silence.
Linda
Well, I have dealt with these issues. My aunt Linda (who is 53) married a dark skin black man back in 1968. You would not BELIEVE the crap she took from her dad, who was a Calloway who’s ancestors are also from NC. He disowned her and didn’t talk to her until she had his first grandchild.
However, my mom is the only one of her 9 other brothers and sisters that married white (which is why I look the way I do) They all married black or mulatto men or women from the area. Let me assure you that in Cass County, MI, people tried to marry as close to their own color as possible. To marry someone darker with obviously more African blood was frowned on BIG time until my generation, which is people born in the late 60’s. Most of my cousins are married to dark skinned black Americans.
Doing my research on my family, you wouldn’t believe all the cousins marrying as well. Again, this was to “keep it in the family” and keep the color lines the same. My own grandparents are second cousins! My grandmother’s father’s (William Rickman) sister is the grandmother of my grandmother’s husband. Does that make sense?
Let me explain that better. William Rickman is the father to my grandmother, Zara. William’s sister Nancy Rickman married Zachariah Pompey, who had Richard Pompey who had my grandfather Casper Pompey. Therefore, they are second cousins. That’s just one of many examples.
So, I really do understand. My now ex-wife was a black American from Georgia. We married when I lived in Florida. She was born in 1963 and was just old enough that she went to a segregated school in Claremont, FL. So again, I do have some understanding, although I didn’t have to deal with it as bad as people from my mom’s generation. My mom is 59, looks almost completely white, has green eyes, freckles and auburn hair (she was a beauty when she was young). Believe me, she tooks some crap, mainly BECAUSE she was so white and pretty. She took relentless persecution from darker people who punished her because THEY thought she thought she was better, although my mom never felt she was better than her darker relatives and friends.
It’s all non-sense, but it’s what this country was built on. If you were not white, you were were black, unless your were a reservation type Indian. For those who were African American, you obviously had it MUCH easier if you were lighter. The prejudice was within the race as well, as I’ve indicated. Cassopolis, MI is a great example of this, and I urge anyone to read about this town. There’s a great book by Calvin Wilson on Cassopolis that explains the racial caste system that Cassopolis was built on. My g,g,g,g grandfather, Samuel Hawkes was probably one of the few brown skinned people who was mostly black who was very successful. The rest of the “movers and shakers” in the area were the lightest of the light, being the relatives of the people from the Saponi area of the country.
Ok, I’m going to stop rambling and get to work. This crazy forum is becoming an addiction for me!! :p
I Love how we can share how we and our families have been treated so horrible, We are like one big group therapy forum.
I have said in many conversations. The things our Grandparents and those before them experienced, are still not even close to what we experience. I have this forever echo of one of the elders telling me about being forced to eat molded oatmeal in the boarding school. (Sick, evil people did that), it is one of those things that makes you like awake at night. It has taken along time for many natives to heal from that, it was like throwing a pebble in still water, the ripples are the generations, and slowly the ripples disappear, which to me symbolizes healing.
Growing up in Michigan, is a little easier than growing up down south, I have heard some crazy stories from my brothers and sisters on this forum, about treatment at some of the pow wows, ect… that rarely happens here but every now and then, Juan and I get harassed, not often, only when we protest the Native School mascots, does it get bad. I am used to it now, I especially love it when they yell GO Back Home!. LOL that kills me.
I always pray for my people here, we really are unique among Indigenous people. Just think about it, many of us are 3 of the 4 colors, it is almost prophetic.
Tommy did you get my pm reply?
Christina,
We all descend from the same two people, Adam and Eve. It doesn’t matter what color you are or what races you have in you background. I do know this some of the blacks in the south have a real chip on their shoulders because of the things they dealt with. I know my indian family members have taken the bad they dealt with, with as much grace as they could muster. I can’t say that for some of the African Americans I grew up with. As I have said before my hair is blonde and my skin is fair because my father was white and I had trouble in school with this one african boy. He would follow me around just as close as he could get to me and say stuff like why won’t you talk to me white girl are you to good to talk to a black boy I just ignored him as I was taught to do because he was harrassing me. Anyway one day I got fed up and said leave me alone I’m not white I’m an indian. He back ed and said oh ****. But the next day he was on me again saying why don’t you talk to me indian girl are you to good to talk to a black boy? I had had it at that point. I turned around and said hell no I won’t talk to you because you are a moron now leave me alone. LOL now he didn’t bother me again cause all his buddies heard what I said to him and laughed at him. He did however try to be very nice to me after that stuff like can I carry your books for you. One day he says is it true are you really an indian? I said yes I am. He looked at me and asked where did you get that blonde hair? I said my white father. He’s like oh ok. Later in the year he said you know your people had it bad too…..I looked at him and said no **** I would have never guessed that and then I laughed cause of the look on his face and gave him my books to carry.
Linda
Linda — yeah, I thought he just had a crush on you from the start. Nice story.
Tommy — you can call me Aunt Linda. You just told my life story. Except my dad wasn’t a light skinned tri-racial. What he was, was lied about for 90 years (Serbian). But it’s the same psychology. It’s this crazy world where you know deep down people are completely pretending to be something they’re not, and reviling people you know they closely resemble. Very unhealthy. Very unstable. It creates its own undoing. Was your Aunt Linda the first to cross that line, and once it was down it was all over but the shoutin’, as they say?
As for deleting your post, it’s enough to me that you want to. Deleting posts is always a problem since it creates a hole that makes the surrounding posts nonsensical. I did think some of y’all were being hard on Jeanne.
I think it is quite possible there were Jews in the mix here. Why shouldn’t there be? There’s something in the family culture of tri-racials here that reminds me of Jewish traits — there’s this Kosher kind of thing, everything needs to be cleaned, cleaned, cleaned ’cause the outside world is so hostile and dirty. So of course there are similar conditions, but if those two groups did co-exist in the same time/place, it would be likely they’d relate to each other, intimately.
And if her family’s DNA shows it, what’s there to argue with? It’s not their fault some crazy Mormons made up a lot of racist BS about Lost Tribes. They can’t stop being Jews because it irritates some folks a couple hundred years later.
I came across some claim that the Croatan Indians of Lost Colony fame were really Croatians. There is documentation of Dalmations coming here very early on, like with Columbus, but the thing that really bothers me is how many tri-racial Indian people I’ve come across down here who remind me STRIKINGLY of my (Yugoslav descended) family. But for that, I’d say the idea was just some old researcher with grandiose dreams about his own heritage. But Shareen Waterlilly is my Cousin Susan, Sharon Smith is my Aunt Babe, and Felicia’s mom is an uncanny female version of my dad, down to the body language. John Blackfeather’s his brother. And there’s a lady from Person County people keep mistaking me for. (I look like my Serbian grandmother.) Go figure. Very eery.
There’s another theory, extrapolated from some DNA results of east coast Indians, that there were basically two land bridges during the Ice Age, west and east, and cave men originating from the Meditteranean made it here. The Hungarian, Sami and Navajo languages are related, some say. Keres (my maiden name) means “quest” in Hungarian, and it’s the name of a Pueblo tribe. Mysteries abound. I don’t want to believe all this stuff, but there are just these little details that stare me in the face.
Oh yes there were definitely Jews early in the colonies, and some mixed with natives. Surprised the heck out of me when I discovered this, but I can document several Jewish families in my lineage. Explains why so many folks on that side of the family were named Moses, Israel, Isaac, etc.
For example, my Weldon family came in the early 1700’s, they were Indian traders, married into tribes. There are Creeks in OK who descend from these folks. My Bruce family is of Jewish ancestry according to the Y chromosome DNA test. A cousin of mine found ancestors associated with synagogues as late as the late 1800’s, but they later switched to Christianity. My grandpa Bruce just took a newer DNA test said to look at percentages of Caucasian ancestry, the results showed a significant amount of southern European and Middle Eastern, even some Asian Indian.
These families weren’t “Melungeons”, they ended up in GA and SC, although my Weldons were in north central NC for a while before heading to Creek territory in GA. I can’t prove if any of my ancestors were intermarried with tribes, but the old family pictures look awfully suspicious.
I spoke with a Jewish researcher ( I can give your her contact info if you want), she said many Jews left southern Spain when the Spaniards were kicking them out, and England allowed them to settle there, as long as they weren’t publicly Jewish. Many changed their names to English names.
Hope this helps with the debate.
Shad
Hi QFF Linda,
I cant imagine what you and your family went through, I am sure it is what my Grandfather went through, In fact you are describing what one of my good friends is experienceing with his child, Picture this: You are the oldest girl, Blonde hair Blue eyes, your brother and 2 sisters are all brown hair and brown eyed, Your dad is a Head Man and you live and go to school on the rez and you are the only child that happened to get all your Blonde hair Blue eyed features from your mom, who you do not live with.
I think there are so many different levels of when where why and how we get treated, but sometimes the rez can be just as cold as the out side world.
I went through the oppisite as far as immediate family, Mom, Step Dad, Step Sisters and half sister, all blonde hair and blue eyed, I tottaly looked like the milk mans kid when we went on vacation!
Oh and my husband and I have both experienced that whole “Are you really an Indian” thing… From our own families LOL!
I remember the day I told my mother that I was going to research my Indian roots and start being apart of the community, My Polish Blue Eyed Blonde haired Mother, Bless her Heart, you know what she said to me? “Thats fine as long as you dont go out back and howl to the moon” and as long as you stay Catholic. Thank God she has come along way from then.
And Auntie Linda And QFF Linda did half of this board go to highschool together? LOL I Love you guys
Oh one more thing, I have seen topics on this board get beaten tooooo death, and many members of ST who have been on here a while know that, but I think when new people join it’s is exactly that NEW, heck I think I am guilty of a couple topic beatings myself, he hehhehe
We are the most down to the nity grity research searching people I have ever known, and when I can start finding the researches cant, I know yall are rubbing off on me! Auntie L, Bill C, Vance H, Qff Linda, Brenda CD, it’s all your fault that I am a Genealogy NUT! Ok and my Ancestors.
See see my face in my picture
<—– thats my face right now LOL
Ok, since I’m the pot stirer, I suppose I should clarify myself.
First, I’m very well aware that Jews lived all over Europe. If we go down the history line: 70 A.D., the Jews were murdered in Jerusalem by the Romans and then taken primarily to Rome, Italy. Then came the “diaspora”, when they relocated to all corners of Europe. Many went to Poland (as well all know, most of them were snuffed out by the Nazis), Russia, Czechoslovakia, Germany (again, we know what happened), Spain, France AND England.
In the 1200’s, Jews had it EXTREMELY tough in England. Finally, the King instituted a forced expulsion of all Jews from England in 1290. Now did all of them really leave? I’m sure they didn’t. Did some accept Christianity and hide their Jewishness? I’m sure.
This expulsion was happening all over Western Europe in Portugal and in France. France did it in 1306. In the late 1300’s, Spain tried to legally “force” Jews to recant their Jewish beliefs and accept Christianity. Finally, in 1492 (a famous year), the Muslims and Jews were expelled from Espana (Spain). Now, again, do I think they rounded up every one of them? No way!
So, that takes us to the 1500’s and 1600’s when the wave of British Isle immigrants, explorers and colonists were coming to what is now the US. The Spaniards, of course, had already been coming to the Caribbean Islands, Mexico, Central and South America since the end of the 1400’s, and early 1500’s. And yes, there were Jews among them! Yes, I’m even admitting there were most likely Jews among the English/Irish/Scottish emigrees that came to the 13 colonies.
What I don’t accept is that an entire clan of PORTUGUESE Jews or Portuguese anything came to basically British America (thus the term “New England” and then they ALL adopted British derivative surnames and THEN disappeard into TN and KY. Since we’re all entitled to our opinions here, I’m going to stick with mine.
I’ve researched this subject, along with that of all of my family’s background for 17 years. I’ve traveled all over the country including trips to Europe to do more research on my father’s Eastern European ancestors. I think I’ve learned something in those years ( I hope at least 😀 ), and that’s why I’m so “opinionated” on my Melungeon posts.
Ok, besides that, how is everyone? Family doing good? How’s the weather! We’re all fine here. Say hi to the kids and Uncle Joe!
The Tsunami!
AAA hhhO Bill!
By the way T Tsunami… Uncle Joe.. he’s doing great, still has a bad limp from that elk attack, but doin good!
Pot Stirrer,
It’s been too cloudy here lately to keep a respectable tan 🙂
and my daughter’s marryin’ a Blackfoot-Cherokee in June, MAN!
Bill
Bill….. I thought that was my job? Oh… wait…. I’m a shitstirrer, whether it’s in a pot or not….. my bad.
Tommy…. I like the way you think 😉 …. have been enjoying your posts. I agree that, usually, the simplest answer is the correct one. It still boggles my mind to see what elaborate means some people will go to in order to avoid the truth. … especially some genealogists and other “experts”
btw, Tommy, you continue to stir all the pots that you want to…. I have my hands full right here in Person co, NC……. stirring a big old triracial stewpot. >;-) About everybody knows the stew is good but nobody around here seems to want to know what went into it……..
peace, my brothers
Ken
Because of the “tsunami” wave I created, I found myself surfing it all over the internet.
I was able to read some of “Dr.” Brent Kennedy’s wonderful fantasy tales of the Melungeons and their “Mediterranean” ancestry. It is all to wild!
I found another article which was great. It was written by a kindred “pot stirrer” like myself.
Please take some time to read it. He writes in the same “direct” manner as me! Tee hee!
http://www.iigs.org/newsletter/9812news/melungeo.htm.en
Ain’t life grand? 😀
For those of you who aren’t tired of my postings yet;) here’s another GREAT link:
http://www.continuitypress.com/melmyssolved.html
After you read each page, you can hit “next” at the bottom to find out more.
BTW, you think I’M tough. Whew! This guy “don’t take no mess”.
Very interesting reading nonetheless.
Tsunami
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