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Here’s one of out links on the Senecas of the Sandusky:
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1099&highlight=pitt
Ok, this contribution by Bess appears very important and one of the sources listed cannot at present be found on line.
This is a section from a thread titled “Tutelo at Prophet’s Town, Indiana”:
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=476&highlight=powhatan
“Tutelos at Prophetstown, Indiana
Prophetstown, Indiana was a multi-tribal village in West Central Indiana from 1808–1811. It was headed by the Shawnee, led by Tecumseh and his brother “the prophet” Tensk-wau- ta-wa. It was located at the junction of the Tippecanoe and Wabash Rivers of what is today Tippecanoe County, Lafayette Indiana. Some of those present were individuals and groups of Pottawatomi, Kickapoos, Shawneee,Wyandottes,Ottawas, Senecas, Winnnebagos,, Miamies, Sacs, Foxes and Chippewas. Some estimate that there were over a thousand warriors with family present. Tecumseh and his brother used the encampment as a means to rally and build a front of warriors from all tribes to resist invasion of the Europeans and the theft of land. The US government strongly opposed the building of such an alliance and attacked the camp in November of 1811 (commonly called “the battle of Tippecanoe”). It was burned and many of those presents were killed. But only a small number were routed from the area.
A very brief historical reference from The American Anthropologist (1892) Vol. 5:52 does shed some clarity on the question–Did Eastern Siouans fight with Tecumseh in 1812? Here is the Quotation:
“It may be of interest to state that Rev. J.O.Dorsey has found in the Indian Bureau at Washington a document of four pages, pretty well faded, which describes a meeting of Winnebago with Tutelo Indians at Prophets’town, close to Tippecanoe, Indiana, in the year 1809. It is stated that the parties were able to understand each other’s language. A.S. Gatschet.” [Bess-this quote from the American Anthropologist is not online, so one has to get hold of a paper copy at a library]
A.S. Gatschet (1832-1907), who reveals the existence of these records, was a leading linguist working for the Bureau of American Ethnology. J. O. Dorsey was the government’s top linguist specializing in Dakotan languages also working in the field of ethnology some years before Gatschet. Therefore this reference shows that:
1. Tutelo/Saponi were with Tecumseh on the side of the British in the war of 1812, since the battle at Prophetstown in Nov. 1811 was the opening phase of that war. The most trustworthy histories indicate that the multi tribal elements defeated at Prophetstown were regrouped by Tecumseh and taken to another theater of war, to Detroit and to Canada It was here that Tecumseh was eventually martyred and his native bands were defeated.
2. The Tutelo at Prophetstown may indeed be the source of some of the “Blackfoot of Southern Illinois” that have been mentioned on this list. This group of Blackfoot are located in the region of Coles, Shelby, Effingham, Layfayete, Jefferson and Edwards counties, Illinois; that is, toward the South East border of Illinois adjacent to Indiana. It turns out that Prophetstown is about 100 miles from Coles County, Illinois. Not very far away. So it is quite possible that some of the Tutelo at Prophetstown migrated to Illinois after the attack on Prophetstown in 1811 and or after the defeat of Tecumseh’s forces at the Thames in 1813.
3. Since, according to Gatschet’s report, the Winnebago and Tutelo could understand each others’ language as late as 1809, despite a significant territorial separation. This strongly confirms that,
a. the ancestors of the Tutelo and Winnabago at Prophetstown must have traveled and visited each other, periodically in pre-European times, in order to maintain the common core features of the Dakotan (Siouan) language shared by both groups.
b. a reexamination and analysis of the Winnebago language might provide some new insights into the development of Tutelo
Bess Veney”
Here is another reference to Tutelos in PA
“On a creek emptying into the Chemung a few miles west of Tioga, marked on our maps as Toodle or Tutelow creek, was a diminutive town of Tuteloes. These were probably a tribe of the Shawanese, a wandering, warlike people, who, after being driven by the Spaniards from Florida, some time previous to 1700, had migrated northward. The Tuteloes seem to be the most dissolute of the nation; and when visited by the missionaries of the Moravian church, in 1747, their town Skogari, in what is now Columbia county, is described as “the only town on the whole continent inhabited by Tuteloes, a degenerate remnant of thieves and drunkards.”‡ In the mission diary at Wyalusing, under date of July 21, 1765, is the entry: “The entire nation of the Tuteloes, but a handful of men, passed en route for Shamokin to hunt.” In the spring of 1766 they were living about three miles from the head of Cayuga lake, and in October, 1767, Zeisberger, on his journey to western Pennsylvania, visited them on Tutelow creek, where they had settled probably the previous spring. After this the name disappears.”
This is found at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~srgp/craft/c01.htm
Techteach
About 3 1/2 years ago I posted some information about the historical geography work by Alan V. Briceland, Westward from Virginia (Charlottesville, 1987). This post has been fairly recently cited by Linda, but not here on the Original Source Material thread she started, so I’m just citing it again:
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/sho…nd&pagenumber=2
Also, at that time I had the available (circulating) library copy checked out. I xeroxed the whole book. Later I found a copy for sale and bought it, so I have that xerox available for anybody who would like to read it. It’s about 230 pages. If there’s a Saponi Research Library someplace, I’ll donate it — but probably it could just circulate among what few people would want to study it.
One of the strengths of the book is its author’s well researched critique of other, earlier printed works on the same topic: location of the trading paths and Indian settlements described in seventeenth and eighteenth century exploration literature, as Virginians tried to find out what (and who) lay further to the west or south. If one perceives Lawson, Byrd et al as original sources, one might do well to take into account Briceland’s better grasp of geographical reality. Early explorers were, as a rule of thumb, more often lost than not.
Kind of off-topic: is the Forum generally aware of Lake Saponi, just east of US Hwy 29 and north of the Albemarle/Greene County line, sort of near Ruckersville, VA?
Well I must have missed this while I was out, welcome PappyDick.
I would be interested in the xerox that you mention but so will many others closer to you and aswell I have never heard of Lake Saponi, can you post anything more on this area.
This isn’t really about original source material, but in answer to Tom’s question: I just pass the sign about once a month, and finally got around to driving down the road. Apparently Lake Saponi, besides being the name of that road, is a dammed-up creek (or small river). The neighborhood is nice, almost suburban, but woodsy. People’s back yards slope down through a lot of trees to the long, narrow lake at the bottom of the little valley. I would guess, since it’s artificial, the name is not ancient. But why they picked that name is kind of an interesting question — to which I don’t have the answer.
Here a link that’s huge, it’s to “Antiquity”, I hope that ya’ll find it as interesting as I have!
http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/toc.htm
OK, I know it’s based on Ogilby, and he based his “map” info (for this part of NC) on the account of Lederer, which is really not all that bad (see the work of Alan V. Briceland cited above), but graphically turns out to be way inaccurate. But I still want to call the forum’s attention to the John Speed map of “Carolina,” 1676. Here is a link to it; you can click on this, scroll down to Speed 1676, and click on the link they have for “a beautiful high resolution image of another example.”
http://www.cummingmapsociety.org/17thC_Maps.htm
I saw an original of this map at The Big Flea (an institution more or less peculiar to Virginia, which I recommend) a few weeks ago. The dealer who has it (for three or four grand, I forget exactly) is sort of a friend of mine, so he let me take digital photos of a few details, which I was planning to post here, but then I found that there are clearer images available online.
Like many European maps of America before the 18th century, this one shows America as you would see it from Europe — north is to the right, not up. So the right border is more or less Virginia. There is a vertical river (flowing down, i.e. from the west) which is the James; you can make out James Town (celebrating its 400th anniversary next year). Above and a little to the left of that is The Falls; that’s Richmond. Lederer started out, I think, from the Petersburg vicinity. Anyhow, you can make out some paths he followed, and find Sapon Nahisan, and the larger town of Akenatzy (Occaneechi — that would be Hillsborough NC, I believe). And there are little guys walking on the trail, carrying muskets, or something. It is a way cool map. Check it out.
Askekesky is not phonetically very close to Akenatzy (which, on the other hand, is just a variant spelling of Occaneechi). Might be some sort of visual misspelling (based on weak eyes; attempt to copy poor handwriting, or an unfamiliar script such as Gothic; “scribal error,” etc.) instead of phonetic. In that case, they are fairly similar.
However, Askekesky doesn’t ring any bells with me — should it? I searched the forums here, also Googled that word, and nothing (apart from your post today) came up.
Yes, I should make this thread “sticky.” I missed a few great posts last March. I had never heard of Saponi lake, that would be interesting to research. My guess is it’s built on a creek by that name.
The town of Akenatzy may be Clarksville. I had trouble opening that map. I’ll have to try again. It will be a good project one day to try and organize a lot of this data, perhaps even publish this source material, annotated, in a chronological fashion.
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